63 replies to this topic

[TheMightyWashburn]

So I wanted to throw this in on the whole double heat sinks thing. This is just an informative table showing 4 useful bits of info about 3 different mechs at 5 different heat sink settings

You will notice "2.00 / 1.40" which is EHS/DHS. Heat sinks slotted into your engine count as DHS not EHS. (Apparently)


TTOH is time to over heat
DTOh is damage till overheat (firing on cooldown)
DMG/15 is damage done in 15 seconds
DMG/30 is damage done in 30 seconds

I think that the discussion has partially gotten away from the issue that the devs dont want DHS to be absolutely required. Becuase of this I think it is important to include a comparison to SHS as well as various values of EHS/DHS.

The three mech variants I chose are energy weapon boats. I did this because they stand to benefit most from an increase and because energy weapons produce the most heat. If you want to see other mech designs compared simply download 3rdworld's mech lab excel thinggy that I used. Thanks 3rd!

The first two mechs are stock, except when I had to change from DHS to SHS or vice versa.

The first up to the plate is the AWS-9M, which is currently (I think) a trial mech and is infamous for being a heat monster with 3 ER PPCs.
It comes with the DHS. When I put SHS (not that you would actually downgrade it) it has the same number of them (8 outside, 2 slotted)

Next is the HBK-4P Swayback. This was my first love in this game. It comes with SHS and when I changed over to DHS is ran out of room and is 5 tons shy of full. But its the most DHS you can fit on it without removing the stock weapons.

Last was the Jenner JR7-F with 6 energy hardpoints. This one I did not keep stock since it had 5 JJs. It was tested with 1 SHS and 1 DHS. The stock engine, and 6 lasers with no JJs installed.



As you can see running the HBK-4P at 2.0 would make it a hell of a monster. Personally I think the 1.8 EHS&DHS option is the best. It decreases the jenners just a little bit (5 dmg over 15 seconds) while making the assault a little better than current.

But anyway, this isnt really my argument. I just thought a few examples would give everyone a good grasp on this whole issue. What do you think given these comparisons? And i encourage you to try out different mechs and how your personal variants would be effected.

Edited by TheMightyWashburn, 05 December 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[TheMightyWashburn]

Sad washburn is sad no one read

[Garth Erlam]

So much math! Do me a favour, and calculate my Cicada next?

6 x medium lasers, 19 DHS.

[xenoglyph]

Interesting stuff, PGI should thank you for doing their work for them.

[TheMightyWashburn]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

So much math! Do me a favour, and calculate my Cicada next?

6 x medium lasers, 19 DHS.

I got all giddy when I saw it was you Garth

[Garth Erlam]

Well thanks for the sheet, it's awesome to see it laid out in a line like that.

I mean, I've seen it live, but to see exact numbers on a table, side-by-side is something else

[TheMightyWashburn]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Well thanks for the sheet, it's awesome to see it laid out in a line like that.

I mean, I've seen it live, but to see exact numbers on a table, side-by-side is something else

D'aww shucks. As for your mech

Assuming it is a CDA-2A with 6 ML 19 DHS an XL 310 engine and, like the boss that you are, you have elite mech stuff unlocked on this that brings you to (with current 2.00/1.40)

TTOH 34.41s
DTOH 264.24dmg HOLY CRAP.
DMG/15 115.23
DMG/30 230.46 (thats better than every other mech ive checked!)

at the proposed (by others, not me) 2.00/2.00

TTOH 55.37
DTOH 425.27 No, that wouldnt be OP at all
DMG/15 115.23
DMG/30 230.46

The other two are 1.70 and 1.80 across all the heat sinks.

TTOH 32.76
DTOH 251.61
DMG/15 115.23
DMG/30 230.46

TTOH 38.28
DTOH 294
DMG/15 115.23
DMG/30 230.46

As you can see that build is so effective at cooling itself (and people think the cicada is redundant rofl) that the dmg under 30 seconds is almost all the same. But the build can fire almost unimpeded It would probably never seem to overheat, ever. Good thing they are fragile.

[grayson marik]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Well thanks for the sheet, it's awesome to see it laid out in a line like that.

I mean, I've seen it live, but to see exact numbers on a table, side-by-side is something else

Ohoh.. i mean ok, thank you very much for noticing and aknowledging his great work.....

but you guys really dont have such sheets in your ähm... office? With class diagrams and statistics, numbers plastered on the walls?

Or at least nicely available in a pretty reporting tool?

I beg you, tell me I am wrong!

Edited by grayson marik, 05 December 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Garth Erlam]

The designers have it yeah, though what I meant was him taking two (to me) random Mechs, and comparing them. That it's out in the community is great

Also - thanks for the above, I hope more people read it

[Pancakeman]

Hey Washburn, any chance you could make a graph for that table? Might help to visualize the differences. Just a thought.

[BlackWidow]

TheMightyWashburn, on 05 December 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Sad washburn is sad no one read

Don't be sad. I read. And it makes me feel a lot better about the 4P I just blew all my C-bills on. Now to earn enough for an XL engine.

[Acehilator]

Add one more heat to the Medium Laser. People using them as backup weapons not really effected, people boating them effected. Medium Lasers are too good right now anyways.

DHS @2.0 or bust. Blame me for wanting to use an energy-based sniper instead of a gauskitty.

[Hatachi]

Just throwing this in. If you made Heatsinks 1.75 across the board, they come out to almost exactly 2.0 with elite skills 15% of coolrun unlocked.

[TheMightyWashburn]

BlackWidow, on 05 December 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Don't be sad. I read. And it makes me feel a lot better about the 4P I just blew all my C-bills on. Now to earn enough for an XL engine. Ive got 6 ML 3 SL STD 245 19 DHS and I got 85 KPH

Thanks
But dont waste money on an XL engine. Hunchies are wayyyy to easy to kill with XL engines in it.

Acehilator, on 05 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Add one more heat to the Medium Laser. People using them as backup weapons not really effected, people boating them effected. Medium Lasers are too good right now anyways.

DHS @2.0 or bust. Blame me for wanting to use an energy-based sniper instead of a gauskitty.

You dont need gauss nor 2.0 HS to sniper with energy weapons. I use my 4 PPC boat to great effect. Or 3 ER PPC to really reach out and touch people.

[Acehilator]

TheMightyWashburn, on 05 December 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

You dont need gauss nor 2.0 HS to sniper with energy weapons. I use my 4 PPC boat to great effect. Or 3 ER PPC to really reach out and touch people.

At the current brawlfest metagame, PPCs are unusuable because of minimum range. Can you use a 3-2 rotation (on cooldown) with three ERPPCs? Forgot to test with my Atlas-RS.

[Like a Sir]

TheMightyWashburn, on 05 December 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

So I wanted to throw this in on the whole double heat sinks thing. This is just an informative table showing 4 useful bits of info about 3 different mechs at 5 different heat sink settings

You will notice "2.00 / 1.40" which is EHS/DHS. Heat sinks slotted into your engine count as DHS not EHS. (Apparently)


TTOH is time to over heat
DTOh is damage till overheat (firing on cooldown)
DMG/15 is damage done in 15 seconds
DMG/30 is damage done in 30 seconds

I think that the discussion has partially gotten away from the issue that the devs dont want DHS to be absolutely required. Becuase of this I think it is important to include a comparison to SHS as well as various values of EHS/DHS.

The three mech variants I chose are energy weapon boats. I did this because they stand to benefit most from an increase and because energy weapons produce the most heat. If you want to see other mech designs compared simply download 3rdworld's mech lab excel thinggy that I used. Thanks 3rd!

The first two mechs are stock, except when I had to change from DHS to SHS or vice versa.

The first up to the plate is the AWS-9M, which is currently (I think) a trial mech and is infamous for being a heat monster with 3 ER PPCs.
It comes with the DHS. When I put SHS (not that you would actually downgrade it) it has the same number of them (8 outside, 2 slotted)

Next is the HBK-4P Swayback. This was my first love in this game. It comes with SHS and when I changed over to DHS is ran out of room and is 5 tons shy of full. But its the most DHS you can fit on it without removing the stock weapons.

Last was the Jenner JR7-F with 6 energy hardpoints. This one I did not keep stock since it had 5 JJs. It was tested with 1 SHS and 1 DHS. The stock engine, and 6 lasers with no JJs installed.



As you can see running the HBK-4P at 2.0 would make it a hell of a monster. Personally I think the 1.8 EHS&DHS option is the best. It decreases the jenners just a little bit (5 dmg over 15 seconds) while making the assault a little better than current.

But anyway, this isnt really my argument. I just thought a few examples would give everyone a good grasp on this whole issue. What do you think given these comparisons? And i encourage you to try out different mechs and how your personal variants would be effected.

I don't know man, to me, seeing this graph show how little damage 9m does, makes me want to see some other custom assault layouts... I recall someone saying that they should maybe scale the heat sinks by class 1.4 for lights 1.6 med 1.8 heavy 2.0 assaults... But I can only imagine the cry/s storm this would cause...

I don't know this just seems to show that some weapons are very broken...

[LaserAngel]

Acehilator, on 05 December 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

At the current brawlfest metagame, PPCs are unusuable because of minimum range. Can you use a 3-2 rotation (on cooldown) with three ERPPCs? Forgot to test with my Atlas-RS.

The Awesome 9M with 20 DHS can just barely manage the heat on a single ER PPC. The PPC + DHS build is just barely viable in the current system.

[Vechs]

It sounds like they just need to turn down the heat of certain energy weapons, like the PPC, ER PPC, ER Large Laser, and Large Pulse Laser, and maybe the Large Laser.

And then leave the small and medium stuff where it is.

Personally, I feel that the ER PPC and ER Large Laser should have the heat generation of the normal versions, and the normal versions should be a bit lower than they are right now.

[Acehilator]

LaserAngel, on 05 December 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

The Awesome 9M with 20 DHS can just barely manage the heat on a single ER PPC. The PPC + DHS build is just barely viable in the current system.

Wow that is even worse than I expected, currently trying a Phract with two ERPPCs and 15 DHS (5 external). Runs hot, yeah.

So, thoughts?

ER Weapons need a buff
Pulse Lasers need a buff
Medium Lasers could be nerfed slightly (if PGI leaves the sledgehammer at home for once)
DHS could be set to 2.0 (would still not be enough to make ER weapons with the current values viable I guess)

[TheMightyWashburn]

For like the 30th time, I USE ER PPCs AND PPCs TO GREAT EFFECT!!!. Im getting tired of this myth that they are useless. YES, they need SOME help. A tiny little bit of help. You would never stop QQing about how much I can core you with my 6 PPC awesome if they made them much more viable. I can already run 6 PPCs without overheating (alpha then chain fire). PGI forbid if I were able to alpha more than once every 10 seconds.

Like a Sir, on 05 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

I don't know man, to me, seeing this graph show how little damage 9m does, makes me want to see some other custom assault layouts... I recall someone saying that they should maybe scale the heat sinks by class 1.4 for lights 1.6 med 1.8 heavy 2.0 assaults... But I can only imagine the cry/s storm this would cause...

I don't know this just seems to show that some weapons are very broken...

As for 9M, yes, the stock version is hard to use. But my custon version is VERY powerful. I run at 84 KPH with 2 LL and 2 ML and 2 SRM4s and 1 SRM6 with 300 SRMs. I an a bullet train of death in that thing! I can easily take down any atlas in a one on one fight. They just cant hanle my speed and precision. Not to mention hey all have Xl engines lol