3036 replies to this topic

[Kaijin]

Sayyid, on 04 January 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

If you read more than the rulebooks you would see that custom mechs are rarer than a modern fighter ace in a Pornstar convention. I can name a handful of custom mechs in the Battletech world.

Kai Allard-Liao's Yen Lo Wang
Takisha Kurita's Dragon which is actually a Grand Dragon and thus not custom.

Custom mechs were STUPID expensive and not common, here they are in every match, and are mostly 95% of the mechs in those matches.

I find it interesting that those who defend PGI's implementation of non-TT ECM so vehemently are often also those who wouldn't have their mechs any other way than 100% full customization as per TT rules. The arguments I have with them remind me of the arguments I've had with people quoting one verse of Leviticus, but ignoring the rest.

Edited by Kaijin, 04 January 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sayyid, on 04 January 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

Kai Allard-Liao's Yen Lo Wang
Takisha Kurita's Dragon which is actually a Grand Dragon and thus not custom.

Many of the Fox's Teeth/Sorenson's Sabre mechs were at one time or another Unique or experimental
Avanti's Angels had a 40% Upgrade including a Caesar with Much Clantech.
Shorty Snede's FrankenMech
Lots of Dragoons with custom builds.
Lots of Kell's with custom mechs
If you look through the merc handbooks units have "Upgrades" ranging from 5%-70%... That is customization.

[Havyek]

Sayyid, on 04 January 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

The reason why 3025 didnt have those things is because... well wait for it......
.
.
.
.
.
.
IT WAS IN 3025!!!!!!


That progression system in game was good, but even when you unlocked heavies and assaults not everyone piloted them. But the weight limited drops and the mission selection types made playing the biggest heaviest thing impractical. I know I piloted a Blackjack all of the time, even when I could pilot and afford a Atlas. I knew people who only piloted Locusts and Javelins. But again there were missions not just drops that are nothing more than slug matches, even the new conquest is a joke.

Agreed, so your point is what? You'd like MWO to roll back to 3025 instead of 3050 just so we don't have to deal with BAP, ECM, or the Clans?

My point is that MPBT:3025 wasn't any more "true" to BT than MWO is. Both games I enjoy, both were based off of BattleTech. Neither uses the rules 100% as written because the simply don't work in a live-action simulator.

And unless my memories of MPBT:3025 are greatly mistaken, there were no "missions". 4v4 drops that ended when the other team was destroyed, or time ran out. Sounds very similar to what we have now, except for MWO is 8v8.

Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely LOVE for MWO to have more mission-like matches. I would also love for them to have a true Team Death Match so I didn't have to deal with people loading out an ECM Commando/Raven/Cicada for speed and capture module and sprinting straight for the base to try and get a cap win.
I'd also like to see tonnage limits, tech enforcements (like stock only matches) and a freaking LOBBY! like many of the previous MW games had available for on-line play.

[Yokaiko]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 January 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

If you look through the merc handbooks units have "Upgrades" ranging from 5%-70%... That is customization.

Which is less then we are seeing in MWO, put a 4mil C-bill motor in a 2.3mil jenner.

[HiplyRustic]

Sayyid, on 04 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

You should remove the MPBT:3025 from your sig with that attitude, because you obviously hated that game to say what you just said. MPBT followed the table top rules as best as you could in a simulated environment and they did a damned better job of a Battletech game then the current PGI MWO game, which is at best a spam fest of lasers and ballistics currently. Which is only marginally better than the spam of LRMs and Streaks a month ago.

Panzerbunny hit the nail on the head with the double armor problem but that is only part of the greater issue. As it stands now here is my take on the issues in game. In no paticular order.

-Double armor
Double armor was put in because the kids wanted longer fights, well this did and didnt help, it instead broke every weapon system in game forcing PGI to go back to the drawing boards and reballance every weapon in the game to make up for the increased armor to keep the "feel" correct. I understand the increased head armor which is easy enough to keep doubled for gameplay reasons but the whole mech it just breaks the game.

-ECM jamming everything beyond 180m.
This is completely backwards from the TT rules, the ECM should jam everything with in 180m but have no affect on anything beyond that unless it draws LOS through the jamming field. Which is currently giveing a 1.5ton piece of equipment way more power then what it did have in the TT or even in the fluff.

-Mech customization.
This is anti-Battletech, Battletech is not about customizing your mech to the situation but adapting your fighting style to the situation. A 'mech isnt a Lego construct that you can pop on or pop off parts as you wish, they are finely engineered weapons of warfare, much like the F22A Raptor or the F35 Lightning II, you cant just take a engine out of a Mig-29 and slap it into a F22 because they are roughly the same size just to make room for a larger bomb load. And that is EXACTLY what we have happening here.

-Removal of knock downs and colisions.
Yes knock downs were getting abused, but with the lag shield it was the easiest way to deal with light mechs that have more armor than assaults on the TT. So instead of fixing the issue they removed it. It would have been easier to take a que from the TT and add accidental charge rules damage. Its a simple rule, speed of mech/10 * the weight of mech/10 = damage done spread out over mech. So if a CN9-D moving 96kp/h hits another CN9-D moving 96kp/h the damage done to each mech will be 9.6*5=43. Which will be enough to keep most lights away from big mechs like the AS7 which would do 50 damage by lumbering into you. It will also give mechs that arent in game yet the CGR Charger its teeth back.

-Making the game in the 3050s.
If PGI had stuck with the original concept of the game and placed it in the Third Succession War, where there are no Clans, no "Lost Tech", nothing to make the game complicated just simple basic weapons with non-customizabled mechs. If the game was set in the original trailer of 3015 the game would probably be near complete at this point.



For those who havent seen it.

This is how I feel the game has gone wrong.

Um yes please, I'll take that game.

[Kraven Kor]

To me, Battletech has always been about mech customization. That wasn't the primary feature of the game, but it was a major feature and one of the things I had the most fun with.

Different tables had different rules, and I never did the tournaments or whatever so don't really care about the tournament rules.

I'd be all for "Stock Mech" match modes or whatever, fine, but you can pry the Mechlab from my cold, dead hands.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yokaiko, on 04 January 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Which is less then we are seeing in MWO, put a 4mil C-bill motor in a 2.3mil jenner.

Well considering only 10% of the forum is playing the game... are you SURE?

[Solis Obscuri]

Sayyid, on 04 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

If PGI had stuck with the original concept of the game and placed it in the Third Succession War, where there are no Clans, no "Lost Tech", nothing to make the game complicated just simple basic weapons with non-customizabled mechs. If the game was set in the original trailer of 3015 the game would probably be near complete at this point.

This I agree with. If everything could be Intro level CBT, the game would be awesome.

[Vassago Rain]

I'm fresh out of games that did indeed involve the legendary 8 ECM mechs.
Do you wanna know how those ended?

We lost 3 guys, and rolled the massed ECM team. Repeatedly.

As for us, we rarely run more than 2 ECM mechs. Your whining is so worthless and without foundation.

[Sayyid]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 January 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Many of the Fox's Teeth/Sorenson's Sabre mechs were at one time or another Unique or experimental
Avanti's Angels had a 40% Upgrade including a Caesar with Much Clantech.
Shorty Snede's FrankenMech
Lots of Dragoons with custom builds.
Lots of Kell's with custom mechs
If you look through the merc handbooks units have "Upgrades" ranging from 5%-70%... That is customization.

Hate to break it to you but MOST of the Wolfs Dragoons did NOT have custom mechs. Out of the 5 regiments and 1 mech battalion there were a grand total of a dozen custom mechs, that werent custom.

Jamie Wolf's Archer, ARC-2W had 2 SRM4s a ton of ammo for them and had removed the 4 Medium lasers. He also has access to a factory, Blackwell Industries. Which unknown to the rest of the Inner Sphere was manned by Clan techs and engineers. So its not something that he did in between fights in a hanger with a Craftsman 128piece tool kit and a HomeDepot TIG welder.

The other units you list all are mercs, and got many of the custom jobs done as part of contract deals when on Garison assignments, or were hackjobs done by engineers between contracts trying to fix the damage of their mechs. If you read the rules you will find many of those mechs have special modifiers because of the poor quality of the modifications.

I have the original Wolf's Dragoons source book, with the complete 5 regiment rosters and I can tell you the number of custom mechs out of the 600 listed in the regiment is less than 1% if not 1% on the dot.

I can tell you that even the great Natasha Kerenski piloted a STOCK Warhammer WHM-6R.

Edited by Sayyid, 04 January 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Codejack]

Kaspirikay, on 04 January 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

but guys, ecm is completely balanced. you just need to learn by adaptin aka buying your own 3L.

I still like my trollmando better

[StalaggtIKE]

Apoc1138, on 03 January 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Missiles don't lock on in tt the same way they do in mwo, you roll to hit and can miss in tt, but in mwo if you maintain lock you hit 100% of the time, so the extra effect ecm has is to counter an extra effect that missile have(in my opinion)... ecm doesn't prevent you spotting or shooting at mechs in mwo either...

Not true. You can dodge lock on through:

• sudden fast movement
  
• putting terrain or obstructions between you and oncoming missiles

TT only way for accounting for movement is through a roll (chance).

[DerMaulwurf]

I didn't read through those pages, but I just want to say that I agree with the OP. I own three Atlases, but I only use one (guess which).

Introducing such a super-powered version of ECM was a lazy cop-out from the challenge of properly balancing guided missiles. Actually it's a classical example of where the "don't nerf, but buff/provide alternatives instead" philosophy goes wrong, as it has created more problems, than it solved. Turning a specialized piece of equipment (anti-Artemis, anti-C3) into the most efficient thing in the game was a mistake.

They could have made Module slots more interesting by introducing some dedicated countermeasures (increased lock times, reduced radar detection range,...) for every mech, but they decided to use the bluntest and biggest hammer they could find. And to add insult to injury it's limited to a select few variants.

[Vassago Rain]

DerMaulwurf, on 04 January 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

I didn't read through those pages, but I just want to say that I agree with the OP. I own three Atlases, but I only use one (guess which).

Introducing such a super-powered version of ECM was a lazy cop-out from the challenge of properly balancing guided missiles. Actually it's a classical example of where the "don't nerf, but buff/provide alternatives instead" philosophy goes wrong, as it has created more problems, than it solved. Turning a specialized piece of equipment (anti-Artemis, anti-C3) into the most efficient thing in the game was a mistake.

They could have made Module slots more interesting by introducing some dedicated countermeasures (increased lock times, reduced radar detection range,...) for every mech, but they decided to use the bluntest and biggest hammer they could find. And to add insult to injury it's limited to a select few variants.

I own three fatlases, too, and I only use one. Before ECM, I still only used one. In closed beta, I only used one of them. Oh my god, the favor has shifted? I don't care.

This is what I predicted ECM would do AGES ago. Deal with it. They didn't change the catapult, gauss, or anything related to tech, except when it was improperly implemented (artemis for all of one day). They won't change ECM.

If they were to split it, are you really so naive you'd not realize all the powers would end up as modules?

[Foster Bondroff]

Didn't read through all 19 pages.

I just share the oppionion of the OP.

ECM reduced the viable variants to basicly two (DDC and 3L9) especially for 8vs8.

If they do not want to change ECM as it is, they atleast need to make it available to every mech, or else there is no need anymore for more than those two mechs.

Funny is i predicted something similar for the hardpoint choices. Basicly to be able to equip ECM is somehow like having a special hardpoint. And as it is, any mech not pocessing this hardpoint are extremely handicapped.

Therefore gives us complete customization freedom, just limited through internal space and tonnage, as it is per TT construction rules.

[Drunken Skull]

What we have is ECM that negates a mechs standard long range Targeting system.. wich is good, thats what ECM is supposed to do..NOW what we need is for the Passive targeting systems we have to be effective where clear visual LOS or close range negate the electronic spoofing of the ECM.

To be honest. I'm not sure why the Dev's decided to go with making ECM this powerful, considering the nature in wich they have already limited the ability to target through LOS and atmospheric disturbances.

Quite often I will dumb-fire LRM at ECM covered targets when I have clear LOS. The use of TAG or a decent hit on target with a long range energy weapon should give up the game but it does not.

That aspect has also been lost through OP of the ECM. the fact that ECM was a game of cat and mouse.. It only gave you an "initial" cover of ananimity, once your position was scouted "the game was up".

The main problem is that ECM is being misused as a defence to LRM fire.. IT IS NOT! the defence to LRM fire is an Anti-Missile System and correct use of the cover provided in the environment.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 04 January 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Kraven Kor]

Vassago Rain, on 04 January 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

I'm fresh out of games that did indeed involve the legendary 8 ECM mechs.
Do you wanna know how those ended?

We lost 3 guys, and rolled the massed ECM team. Repeatedly.

As for us, we rarely run more than 2 ECM mechs. Your whining is so worthless and without foundation.

How did we go from following one another around to refute each other, constantly, to basically saying the same things???

[Ngamok]

One way to fix the Raven 3L or any mech that has these options is the following. If you go to www.sarna.net and look at the Raven-3L you'll see that it carries a TAG and a NARC. In game, these hardpoints are given a generic Missle and Energy hardpoint. Take out those harpoints and make it required that it have NARC and TAG and it will then just sport the 2 Energy and 1 Missle. Same for the other variants.

/puts on flame suit

[Joseph Mallan]

Sayyid, on 04 January 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Hate to break it to you but MOST of the Wolfs Dragoons did NOT have custom mechs. Out of the 5 regiments and 1 mech battalion there were a grand total of a dozen custom mechs, that werent custom.

Jamie Wolf's Archer, ARC-2W had 2 SRM4s a ton of ammo for them and had removed the 4 Medium lasers. He also has access to a factory, Blackwell Industries. Which unknown to the rest of the Inner Sphere was manned by Clan techs and engineers. So its not something that he did in between fights in a hanger with a Craftsman 128piece tool kit and a HomeDepot TIG welder.

The other units you list all are mercs, and got many of the custom jobs done as part of contract deals when on Garison assignments, or were hackjobs done by engineers between contracts trying to fix the damage of their mechs. If you read the rules you will find many of those mechs have special modifiers because of the poor quality of the modifications.

I have the original Wolf's Dragoons source book, with the complete 5 regiment rosters and I can tell you the number of custom mechs out of the 600 listed in the regiment is less than 1% if not 1% on the dot.

I can tell you that even the great Natasha Kerenski piloted a STOCK Warhammer WHM-6R.

Which is quite out of date with present information. Just sayin'

[SpiralRazor]

Sayyid, on 04 January 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

If you read more than the rulebooks you would see that custom mechs are rarer than a modern fighter ace in a Pornstar convention. I can name a handful of custom mechs in the Battletech world.

Kai Allard-Liao's Yen Lo Wang
Takisha Kurita's Dragon which is actually a Grand Dragon and thus not custom.

Custom mechs were STUPID expensive and not common, here they are in every match, and are mostly 95% of the mechs in those matches.





The reason why 3025 didnt have those things is because... well wait for it......
.
.
.
.
.
.
IT WAS IN 3025!!!!!!


That progression system in game was good, but even when you unlocked heavies and assaults not everyone piloted them. But the weight limited drops and the mission selection types made playing the biggest heaviest thing impractical. I know I piloted a Blackjack all of the time, even when I could pilot and afford a Atlas. I knew people who only piloted Locusts and Javelins. But again there were missions not just drops that are nothing more than slug matches, even the new conquest is a joke.

This.....3025 was a superior game in nearly every way that matters(not graphics).