3037 replies to this topic

[HiplyRustic]

Apoc1138, on 03 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Have you tried tag?... I get great results self tagging and engaging targets at 400-600m with LRMs or 180-270 with streaks



On what page are the full rules because one paragraph on page 213 does not constitute all of the rules

Ok Apoc, let's cut to the chase. What rulebooks and reference sources will you consider definitive. You take a stance, but it's all vague "not good enough" chatter and no source facts of your own to rebut the position that ECM's current incarnation in this game is not ECM but a combination of ECM and some aspects of stealth armor.

So, you tell me/us specifically, by title, what reference materials you will consider adequate to convince you you're wrong about ECM's current capabilities being in line with canon of any variety or just come right out and say "No matter what sources you cite I'll continue to say they are not definitive."

Edited by HiplyRustic, 03 January 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[Apoc1138]

Codejack, on 03 January 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

If they're driving an Atlas.... or are stupid enough to stand still.... and let you stay outside of 180m..... and don't shoot you in the cockpit while you are holding perfectly still to keep TAG on them and get lock... then, yea, TAG does... something to ECM.

I down ravens and commandos regularly... if you can hit with a laser then you can hit with tag often enough to maintain lock... while moving no less

HiplyRustic, on 03 January 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

Ok Apoc, let's cut to the chase. What rulebooks and reference sources will you consider definitive. You spout off a lot, but it's all vague "not good enough" chatter and no source facts of your own.

So, you tell me/us what reference materials you will consider adequate to convince you you're wrong about ECM's current capabilities being in line with canon of any variety or just come right out and say "No matter what sources you cite I'll continue to say they are not definitive."

I don't have all the rulebooks so I don't know where all the rules are, I can only find snippets online, but the snippets I can find read broadly similar to what I see in game... I don't know all the rules so please teach them to me so I can learn... everyone quoting it's not canon can't back up their claims either because no one has posted the full rules on ecm (from the core rule book at a guess)

Edited by Apoc1138, 03 January 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

Yes, yes they have..multiple times....

you either just have failed to read them or failed to comprehend them..

In fact, i posted the exact rules to Guardian ECM, TAG, NULL SIG and BAP in one of my own posts. I forgot to include Stealth armor and ANGEL though...my bad.

But yeah, let me say that as a long time TT player, MWO ECM has nothing to do with how it works in the table top, or in fact, any other Mechwarrior Sim for the last 24 years.

[The Cheese]

Apoc1138, on 03 January 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

so my team winning with no ecm, enemy with ecm and me self spotting with tag an getting 600-1000+ damage = no counter?

Anecdotes are not a convincing argumentative tool.

[Just Another Poster]

SpiralRazor, on 03 January 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Yes, yes they have..multiple times....

you either just have failed to read them or failed to comprehend them..

In fact, i posted the exact rules to Guardian ECM, TAG, NULL SIG and BAP in one of my own posts. I forgot to include Stealth armor and ANGEL though...my bad.

But yeah, let me say that as a long time TT player, MWO ECM has nothing to do with how it works in the table top, or in fact, any other Mechwarrior Sim for the last 24 years.

Well said, although it's all been said in the previous pages in good details and were apparently forgotten.

[Ashnod]

Bump and like this thread for a more reasonable ECM and streak SRM!

http://mwomercs.com/...nd-ecm-changes/

[HiplyRustic]

Apoc1138, on 03 January 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

I down ravens and commandos regularly... if you can hit with a laser then you can hit with tag often enough to maintain lock... while moving no less



I don't have all the rulebooks so I don't know where all the rules are, I can only find snippets online, but the snippets I can find read broadly similar to what I see in game... I don't know all the rules so please teach them to me so I can learn... everyone quoting it's not canon can't back up their claims either because no one has posted the full rules on ecm (from the core rule book at a guess)

Apoc, cite me one single snippet that says ECM should confer lock immunity to all mechs under its umbrella...just one. Or provide radar invisibility until we're at 180m for that matter.

I may be misreading you here, but you are either being disingenuous as to your understanding of the rules and canon or you really just said "I don't know the rules but I'm going to tell you that ECM is doing what it should".

Edited by HiplyRustic, 03 January 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Trey Smooth]

ecm is strong but really it shows us the real problem with the game which is lag and hit reg.  The problem is with such poor hit reg many people resorted to auto hit locking weapons like the lrm and yeah the ecm ruins that totally.  I use ac 10's and 20's frequently and hitting a light mech with a ac10 can be next to impossible when the guy also lags all to hell, half the time its hard to get a laser to reg.  The games hitboxes on small mechs are jacked and the fact there is no east coast/west coast means I see people routinely with 300 to 400 ping and higher.  Put a light mech in the hands of a guy with a high ping and they are basically free to do what they want, give them ecm on top of that and the raven 3l is a joke imo.
My solution?  I slapped big xl engines in my centurians and I hunt ravens with non locking srm 4's and 6's and lasers.  I use the ac 10's to take out the big stuff.

Edited by Trey Smooth, 03 January 2013 - 06:34 PM.

[WolvesX]

http://mwomercs.com/...mation-warfare/

This here is another good ECM thread!

[Phatel]

I kill ecm mechs of all sizes all day long and never check their ping. I do not bring ecm and could care less about staying near it. You are no harder to kill than any other light and I'm sure you die. So thanks for the luls op, move along.

[Joseph Mallan]

Apoc1138, on 03 January 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

I don't have all the rulebooks so I don't know where all the rules are, I can only find snippets online, but the snippets I can find read broadly similar to what I see in game... I don't know all the rules so please teach them to me so I can learn... everyone quoting it's not canon can't back up their claims either because no one has posted the full rules on ecm (from the core rule book at a guess)

I did once post the Core rules on ECM. Guardian does not stop SSRMs for one (Pg 134 Total Warfare). Angel ECM stops SSRMs being well Streak and turns them to dumbfire SRM2s. Also it blocks the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak)
model.(Pg279 Tactical Operations)

[Martini Henrie]

StalaggtIKE, on 03 January 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Oh. As long as it caters to your play style, I'm fine.

Yup, I'm still running about in the same mechs as I was pre-ecm, plus some of the new PTW ( )ones like the Flame. You can't tell me that my Cents are OP . I have a D-DC with ECM, but I only use it when in 8 man drops, mostly...

[Apoc1138]

HiplyRustic, on 03 January 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Apoc, cite me one single snippet that says ECM should confer lock immunity to all mechs under its umbrella...just one. Or provide radar invisibility until we're at 180m for that matter.

I may be misreading you here, but you are either being disingenuous as to your understanding of the rules and canon or you really just said "I don't know the rules but I'm going to tell you that ECM is doing what it should".

so having stated that I don't have all the rules, you are berating me for not having all the rules?
ok...

in MWO, missiles lock on and provide a 100% chance to hit as long as you maintain lock... even in indirect fire mode
in TT, as I understand it, you always have a good chance to miss even on direct fire, and indirect fire is something like an 11 or 12 only to hit (e.g. very low chance)... missiles have extra abilities in MWO and so does ECM
we all have free c3 computers, ECM disrupts that (etc.)

contrary to forum popular belief, ECM does not make mechs invisible, and doesn't act as Null Sig (making mechs invisible to thermal)

I find your misquote of me disingenuous as that isn't what I said at all

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

I did once post the Core rules on ECM. Guardian does not stop SSRMs for one (Pg 134 Total Warfare). Angel ECM stops SSRMs being well Streak and turns them to dumbfire SRM2s. Also it blocks the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak)
model.(Pg279 Tactical Operations)

I agree that SSRM's should be able to be fired as dumb fire, though I see this as a buff to SRM's rather than a nerf to ECM
I do also think that BAP and other items should still get their bonus to extend the 200m range (with all the modules available I think it would extend it up to about 300m which would be useful), though again, I see these as buffs to other items rather than a nerf to ECM

Edited by Apoc1138, 04 January 2013 - 02:26 AM.

[Kaijin]

[Just Another Poster]

I also run a 3L when I want to pugstomp and it's ridiculously OP. Just strafe around, pewpew, force Streaks to work with ECM, little regard to aiming, and usually top 1-3 on damage and/or last to die in a game. This thing has the highest survability in the game, and it does this without even using an AMS. Higher survivability usually translates into higher numbers. I actually dropped 2man with a decent Stalker pilot while running my 3L and my damage was right next to his, or better, every game, in this 35t ride. This will obviously change when KDs are returned(whenever that day comes. It'll probably happen Christmas 2013), but the fact will remain that ECM variants are better than every non-ECM variant in their lineup and will always be until you solve the root of the problem.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

Just Another Poster, on 04 January 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

I also run a 3L when I want to pugstomp and it's ridiculously OP. Just strafe around, pewpew, force Streaks to work with ECM, little regard to aiming, and usually top 1-3 on damage and/or last to die in a game. This thing has the highest survability in the game, and it does this without even using an AMS. Higher survivability usually translates into higher numbers. I actually dropped 2man with a decent Stalker pilot while running my 3L and my damage was right next to his, or better, every game, in this 35t ride. This will obviously change when KDs are returned(whenever that day comes. It'll probably happen Christmas 2013), but the fact will remain that ECM variants are better than every non-ECM variant in their lineup and will always be until you solve the root of the problem.

Very well put.
Just for reference I pulled out the 2X Raven yesterday (as I need its XP to push my 3L) and man did it s*ck beyond belief. I was dying constantly. Ok it does 10kph less than my 3L and has more heat problems, but man I got stomped by Streaks and LRMs like mad.
Then went back to my 3L and got 500+ damage per game and was again winning or dying last....

But I bet ECM is fine... (actually current implementation it is Angel ECM + Null Field according to lore, the later was scrapped by FASA as permanent lostech as it was too OP)

[Just Another Poster]

Always well said.(Much like that previous fellow with the weird B name) But the 2X and 4X variants are just trash now thanks to Piranha's fail balance. I was happy when they both hit 4/4 Elite. I'll never be burdened having to play them ever again. But you know there's a problem when the 100t tank dies faster every game than the 35t Light. No KBs are obviously part of this but also the fail ECM design. As I said, even when KBs return, ECM variants will be far superior to other variants, because they won't have actually balanced the blasted thing. People are going "just wait until KBs are down", that won't change the fact that 2X and 4X will still be moot. Every Commando without an ECM is moot. This is how they made the game. Until the ECM is less powerful or has better counters, it'll remain so.

[007blackcat]

Apoc1138, on 03 January 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

people who can't play will always blame the thing that they think got them killed at some point since closed beta, pretty much everything in the game has been accused of being OP and yet only minor changes or none have happened to those items, eventually the QQ dies down and people that want to play just get on with playing instead of whining about everything

Sorry bru that's not how I see it. I run a cheese 3L and blow ppl up unless the enemy team has more cheese than my team does. Fact is I do not enjoy playing a cheesy game because in my opinion its frigging stupid to have to play a cheesy game.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Probably wouldn't be a problem if armour wasn't double. Lights wouldn't be these knights of invincibility charging into the enemy.

They would be scout mechs. The role they were designed for.

There is a story in the lore of a DCMS commander experimenting with the strategy of overwhelming force by using tons and tons and tons of lights.

Stinger and Valkyries I think.

Anyways. Long story short.

They got wrecked. Lights are just exceptionally vulnerable to even stray shots.

[Havyek]

I don't know about the rest of you, but the ECM in the game works like it currently does, therefor it's 100% accurate to MWO's interpretation of ECM.

Take your TT rules and go play MW:Tactics. It's a turn based game where you can click and wait. You'll like it.

MW and MWO are based on the BT rule set. Those rules don't interpret very well over to a live-action, skill based simulation/arcade video game. Which is why some things have been tweaked, some have been changed, and others have been tossed out in favour of something better/different.

Edited by BDU Havoc, 04 January 2013 - 05:25 AM.