3036 replies to this topic

[HiplyRustic]

Apoc1138, on 03 January 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

why should it? in the game upon which MWO is based, BAP is completely blocked by ECM, it does the same in this game as well
the only thing BAP should do is give you an indication that ECM mechs are somewhere around anywhere on the map... though you already know there are mechs around every time you drop so it's a moot point

Well, your response seems fairly nonsensical since in the game MWO is based upon ECM doesn't do half of what it's doing here.

[Apoc1138]

HiplyRustic, on 03 January 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Well, your response seems fairly nonsensical since in the game MWO is based upon ECM doesn't do half of what it's doing here.

. Well your response seems fairly redundant considering I've already responded to that exact comment several times already... from the rules I can find and the extra effects already built in to mow, ecm seems to be working largely similar, and no one has yet posted up the actual full and complete set of tt rules for guardian ecm to really compare

Edited by Apoc1138, 03 January 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[Kraven Kor]

Just Another Poster, on 03 January 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Actually they said that when this occurs, you don't take damage from it. It's a client side visual bug only; server doesn't register it as a hit unless it actually had pathing to you. So it's not really a "legitimate complaint" to nerf LRMs.

With the last patch, this was supposedly fixed. I have not noticed it occurring since, though I could be mistaken.

The Black Crusade, on 03 January 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

I dont understand why ECM's block target-lock against ALL friendly mechs in the radius. Why wouldnt it just block the target-lock only against the mech that possesses it. Seems to me it would solve a lot problems.

I think I get the intent with it.

Honestly, had they opted for ECM only affecting the mech it is equipped on... everyone would equip it. As it is? Only most everyone equips it

If it was the same disrupt/counter toggle as now, but only for yourself and then only against 1 mech, well, the usage of ECM becomes wonky. If you have ECM, enemy mechs can't get a lock; unless they have ECM and counter. So now they are on counter, and now they are vulnerable to missiles as well as their target. Their friends' ECM doesn't help hide them, nor does it prevent another mech from countering them to hit with missiles... so now everyone has ECM, but everyone using missiles is just countering their target... it would be... strange. I can't even describe what I envision happening quite right.

I don't know what to suggest, but I like the idea behind only "needing" 1 or 2, maybe 3 ECM mechs on a team.

[Just Another Poster]

Apoc1138, on 03 January 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

. Well your response seems fairly redundant considering I've already responded to that exact comment several times already

Not with anything intelligent or logical.

Edited by Just Another Poster, 03 January 2013 - 04:18 PM.

[TVMA Doc]

How about another counter? If you are running a radar jammer, that alone can give off its own signal. An anti-radiation missile can tack down radar signals or ECM signals and ride them into the target.

Add in anti-radiation missiles, a variant that actually follows ECM MORE effectively than no ECM. Make the ECM mechs think about their tactics and whether they run with disrupt running constantly.

[Cest7]

OPs got merrit...

[HiplyRustic]

Apoc1138, on 03 January 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

. Well your response seems fairly redundant considering I've already responded to that exact comment several times already... from the rules I can find and the extra effects already built in to mow, ecm seems to be working largely similar, and no one has yet posted up the actual full and complete set of tt rules for guardian ecm to really compare

Fair enough, here you go...the appropriate reference page for Guardian ECM...please point out to me where it prevents locks or provides complete non-line of sight invisibility outside 180m:

Link: http://haveno.info/B...0TechManual.pdf

• ↑ TechManual, p. 213

Look, if the decision's been made to have ECM confer stealth armor attributes (which it currently does from an LRM lock and radar visibility perspective) then give it some disincentive and force it to carry the same costs...7 crit slots, forced to be carried in 7 different locations, and if one gets critted the whole system fails.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 03 January 2013 - 04:51 PM.

[Apoc1138]

Missiles don't lock on in tt the same way they do in mwo, you roll to hit and can miss in tt, but in mwo if you maintain lock you hit 100% of the time, so the extra effect ecm has is to counter an extra effect that missile have(in my opinion)... ecm doesn't prevent you spotting or shooting at mechs in mwo either... the links you've posted are not actual links to the full set of rules, just a subset of references for the bits of the rules that have been copied to sarna... the actual rules are more expansive than the snippets on sarna... mechs not in line of site don't have visibility anyway, so how can ecm make something not-visible... invisible?

Edited by Apoc1138, 03 January 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[Amdrauder]

I gotta say i do hate ECM aswell, as a guy who has a few games a day and is essentially casual, maybe playing with a friend or two once in a blue moon, i'm totally perplexed as to how many games i joined where essentially half my mechs loadout is rendered completely useless, 3 games last night i failed to achieve 1 single lock on due to ECM.
As i dont carry it myself when pugging im essentially forced to rely on 1 of my team having it and knowing what to do with it and either i keep facing premades or random teams with so much ECM they can just blanket cover there entire team

It should have a small duration or something, having the entire team target less strolling down a hill like it was a warm summers day laying into us with all of there weapons while im forced to poke with a few mediums really ruins the fun of the game for me.

[Corvus Antaka]

Khobai, on 03 January 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

The concept of ECM is fine. The implementation is not.

1) ECM grants too much stealth
2) ECM hard counters missiles too much

ECM should not grant as much stealth, it should reduce sensor range to like 400m or 500m at most, not 200m. Also ECM should not prevent streaks from firing. At worst it should turn streaks into normal srms. Lastly, LRMs need an indirect fire nerf because indirect fire with LRMs is still way too good. In tabletop, you basically needed roll 11 or 12 on 2d6 to hit with indirect fired LRMs... they were extremely inaccurate unlike MWO.

+1 for mech3 LRMS then we wouldnt need this horrid ECM

[HiplyRustic]

Apoc1138, on 03 January 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Missiles don't lock on in tt the same way they do in mwo, you roll to hit and can miss in tt, but in mwo if you maintain lock you hit 100% of the time, so the extra effect ecm has is to counter an extra effect that missile have(in my opinion)... ecm doesn't prevent you spotting or shooting at mechs in mwo either... the links you've posted are not actual links to the full set of rules, just a subset of references for the bits of the rules that have been copied to sarna... the actual rules are more expansive than the snippets on sarna... mechs not in line of site don't have visibility anyway, so how can ecm make something not-visible... invisible?

I linked you the entire tech manual, the page reference # happens to come from the sarna ECM page...what more would you like? The tech manual is the definitive reference for what a piece of tech does.

Mechs not in line of sight are most assuredly visible to targeting systems. What exactly is it you think radar does? ECM does not by definition, not, confer a radar cloak. That's stealth armor's job. Read?

Edited by HiplyRustic, 03 January 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[Apoc1138]

Amdrauder, on 03 January 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I gotta say i do hate ECM aswell, as a guy who has a few games a day and is essentially casual, maybe playing with a friend or two once in a blue moon, i'm totally perplexed as to how many games i joined where essentially half my mechs loadout is rendered completely useless, 3 games last night i failed to achieve 1 single lock on due to ECM.
As i dont carry it myself when pugging im essentially forced to rely on 1 of my team having it and knowing what to do with it and either i keep facing premades or random teams with so much ECM they can just blanket cover there entire team

It should have a small duration or something, having the entire team target less strolling down a hill like it was a warm summers day laying into us with all of there weapons while im forced to poke with a few mediums really ruins the fun of the game for me.

Have you tried tag?... I get great results self tagging and engaging targets at 400-600m with LRMs or 180-270 with streaks

HiplyRustic, on 03 January 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

I linked you the entire tech manual...what more would you like? The tech manual is the definitive reference for what a piece of tech does.

On what page are the full rules because one paragraph on page 213 does not constitute all of the rules

[WolvesX]

TAG needs LOS and does not counter in CC.

so.

No counter.

Edited by WolvesX, 03 January 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[Amdrauder]

Apoc1138, on 03 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Have you tried tag?... I get great results self tagging and engaging targets at 400-600m with LRMs or 180-270 with streaks



On what page are the full rules because one paragraph on page 213 does not constitute all of the rules

I wasn't aware tags countered ECM?

[PiemasterXL]

Amdrauder, on 03 January 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

I wasn't aware tags countered ECM?

It does until you get within 180m of the mech with ecm. tag is handy for lrm boats, not so much for lights.

[Apoc1138]

WolvesX, on 03 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

TAG needs LOS and does not counter in CC.

so.

No counter.

so my team winning with no ecm, enemy with ecm and me self spotting with tag an getting 600-1000+ damage = no counter?

[Amdrauder]

PiemasterXL, on 03 January 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

It does until you get within 180m of the mech with ecm. tag is handy for lrm boats, not so much for lights.

Well now i just feel stupid for even posting i actually used one last night but it didnt seem to help, do i still need the lock on or just the beam on them and fire the rockets?

[Apoc1138]

PiemasterXL, on 03 January 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

It does until you get within 180m of the mech with ecm. tag is handy for lrm boats, not so much for lights.

Streaks are trickier, but not impossible... the trick is to let the raven engage a teammate while you get to 180-270 to fire your streaks

Amdrauder, on 03 January 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Well now i just feel stupid for even posting i actually used one last night but it didnt seem to help, do i still need the lock on or just the beam on them and fire the rockets?

You need the beam plus target plus lock... don't feel stupid, the only stupid question is the one that goes unasked... glad I could help

Edited by Apoc1138, 03 January 2013 - 05:12 PM.

[Codejack]

Amdrauder, on 03 January 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

I wasn't aware tags countered ECM?

If they're driving an Atlas.... or are stupid enough to stand still.... and let you stay outside of 180m..... and don't shoot you in the cockpit while you are holding perfectly still to keep TAG on them and get lock... then, yea, TAG does... something to ECM.

[HiplyRustic]

Apoc1138, on 03 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Have you tried tag?... I get great results self tagging and engaging targets at 400-600m with LRMs or 180-270 with streaks



On what page are the full rules because one paragraph on page 213 does not constitute all of the rules

Ok Apoc, let's cut to the chase. What rulebooks and reference sources will you consider definitive. You take a stance, but it's all vague "not good enough" chatter and no source facts of your own to rebut the position that ECM's current incarnation in this game is not ECM but a combination of ECM and some aspects of stealth armor.

So, you tell me/us specifically, by title, what reference materials you will consider adequate to convince you you're wrong about ECM's current capabilities being in line with canon of any variety or just come right out and say "No matter what sources you cite I'll continue to say they are not definitive."

Edited by HiplyRustic, 03 January 2013 - 05:22 PM.