176 replies to this topic

[Lescun]

Vernius Ix, on 05 December 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

BAP needs to act at a one mech counter to ECM. A mech with BAP should be able to see enemy and friendlies on the map, lock up for missles at 400m.

NARC needs to last 60 to 90 seconds and make the mech it is attached to able to be locked and fired upon from normal distances. I would also have it act as a active radar source for 10 seconds after being attached, showing detailed info on all the mechs around it to the commander on your team. Just the info for the mechs around, nothing else.

TAG is just useless since it is visible. Make it invisible and increase its range to 650m.

Sorry to be contradictory here but in the Battletech universe, ECM is specifically supposed to counter BAP, NARC, TAG, C3 and all of those other fancy targeting enhancements so making BAP counter ECM is just a silly notion in terms of canon.

TAG is supposed to be short ranged; again according to canon, the whole point of TAG is to be a spotting laser is for a scout to paint a target and call indirect fire support, NOT so fire support can be more accurate on their own. I'm guessing TAG is visible because when activated, it's supposed to be the electronic equivalent of having a giant spotlight on the target and someone shouting "YOU ARE GOING TO DIE NEXT" while the scout carrying the TAG is jumping up and down waving a flag going "It's me! I'm targeting you!"

I agree about the NARC though, I haven't seen any Mechwarrior game get NARC right. For the weight sacrifice and the ammo, it seems like a completely useless system. It's a physical homing beacon for pity's sake, it's supposed to call in all missiles that have any sort of guidance to hit that specific spot. It's not like it suddenly runs out of power after 15 seconds or whatever. Supposed to stay on the mech until the mech is destroyed.

On the subject of ECM imbalancing teams/PUGs, I actually find pugging to be easier at the moment but that may be an artefact of the hardcore 8 man teams only playing against other 8 man teams. In contrast, I find 8-manning much more difficult because of ECM. It really comes down to which side has more ECM because, if played correctly, the team with more ECM should be able to counter all of the other ECMs (assuming functionality is working correctly) and still have ECM shroud. This by itself makes calling focus targets and seeing allied/enemy positioning on the map very difficult and basically nullifies any advantage of voice chat and coordination. Panic sets in when you lose situational awareness in a large firefight and you don't know where your lancemates are. That said, that's really part of the game and really how it should be; warfare is not balanced nor is it fair. An easy solution is drop in 8 man groups with a couple 3-L Ravens and 6 D-DC Atlases (or some variation of this group make up). You may scoff but I see this group make-up quite a bit and it's difficult as the side without the ECMs to focus fire when nobody can target anything.

[Codejack]

RumRunner151, on 06 December 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Your premise is flawed. TAG is very effective in countering ECM. Too bad more people don't equip it.

Well, I used to equip it, but there are a few problems that led me to shelve it:

1) You can't keep a fast light painted at long range
2) Even if you could, he's not going to stay at long range
3) It is completely useless at close range

Yea, it works against Atlases, but if you need the TAG to find them, you have other problems.

[Codejack]

Lescun, on 06 December 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Sorry to be contradictory here but in the Battletech universe, ECM is specifically supposed to counter BAP, NARC, TAG, C3 and all of those other fancy targeting enhancements so making BAP counter ECM is just a silly notion in terms of canon.

Oh, but ECM did work this way in TT?! You can't reject a proposal due to canon when the system the proposal addresses works nothing like canon.

If you want to make ECM work like it did in TT, then that 's fine with me. The only people who will complain are all the anti-streakcat whingers who are currently abusing it.

[MrPenguin]

Oh my god, theirs a fair counter to lock-on weapons! Everyone panic!

[Codejack]

MrPenguin, on 06 December 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

Oh my god, theirs a fair counter to lock-on weapons! Everyone panic!

No, there is a COMPLETE counter to lock-on weapons, which were the only counter to fast lights.

Nobody's panicking, but all of us old streakcat pilots are now running Commandos; a fast light with ECM and streaks. How is that better?

[MrPenguin]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

No, there is a COMPLETE counter to lock-on weapons, which were the only counter to fast lights.

Nobody's panicking, but all of us old streakcat pilots are now running Commandos; a fast light with ECM and streaks. How is that better?

Too bad this game doesn't have some sort of skill based weapon that you can just aim and shoot with.
ECM going to kill MWO.

Edited by MrPenguin, 06 December 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[Codejack]

MrPenguin, on 06 December 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Too bad this game doesn't have some sort of skill based weapon that you can just aim and shoot with.
ECM going to kill MWO.

How many times do I have to post the video of me hitting a Jenner with 144 SRMs at point blank range and doing no damage?

DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS ARE USELESS AGAINST FAST LIGHTS.

[Kraven Kor]

Vermaxx, on 05 December 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

PUGing took a hit in the pants. Of course you'll get a dozen posts within 10 minutes of people who don't care aboug the PUG experience and tell you how much more balanced and awesome team play is.

There will never be any good balance until community warfare is done and they can start doing things like living economies and tonnage limits.

Well, therein lies the problem.

They can't make everyone happy.

ECM is a thing of beauty to me, so far, with a few minor complaints. LRM's and Streaks are no longer easy mode. You actually can sneak around now.

So how does PGI balance what I / we want vs. what you / they want?

[MrPenguin]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

How many times do I have to post the video of me hitting a Jenner with 144 SRMs at point blank range and doing no damage?

DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS ARE USELESS AGAINST FAST LIGHTS.

You have absolutely no idea how to lead your shots do you? Its common knowledge that lights hitbox is slightly ahead of there visual model. So you gotta lead your shots a bit further then normal to hit them. Also, since lights have small bodys, its very common to have a good number of missles just simply miss.

Almost everyone knows this by now except new players and they tend to learn quickly anyway.

Also, I just realized that your the guy who made the "commando is OP" thread.

Edited by MrPenguin, 06 December 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

How many times do I have to post the video of me hitting a Jenner with 144 SRMs at point blank range and doing no damage?

DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS ARE USELESS AGAINST FAST LIGHTS.

"Not useless."

Buggy? Sure. "Useless?" No.

For every video someone posts of their SRM volleys doing nothing, I can probably find another showing a light being owned in the face by SRM's.

[Sevaradan]

MrPenguin, on 06 December 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

You have absolutely no idea how to lead your shots do you? Its common knowledge that lights hitbox is slightly ahead of there visual model. So you gotta lead your shots a bit further then normal to hit them.

Literally everyone knows this by now except new players and they tend to learn quickly anyway.

Also, I just realized that your the guy who made the "commando is OP" thread.

this.

I kill lights all the time with ballistics as an atlas.

You just need to not suck at MWO to do it.

[Bguk]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

How many times do I have to post the video of me hitting a Jenner with 144 SRMs at point blank range and doing no damage?

DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS ARE USELESS AGAINST FAST LIGHTS.

MrPenguin stated it well above.

Counter Point: DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS ARE NOT USELESS AGAINST FAST LIGHTS

[Codejack]

MrPenguin, on 06 December 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

You have absolutely no idea how to lead your shots do you? Its common knowledge that lights hitbox is slightly ahead of there visual model. So you gotta lead your shots a bit further then normal to hit them. Also, since lights have small bodys, its very common to have a good number of missles just simply miss.

Almost everyone knows this by now except new players and they tend to learn quickly anyway.

Also, I just realized that your the guy who made the "commando is OP" thread.

Kraven Kor, on 06 December 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

"Not useless."

Buggy? Sure. "Useless?" No.

For every video someone posts of their SRM volleys doing nothing, I can probably find another showing a light being owned in the face by SRM's.

Sevaradan, on 06 December 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

this.

I kill lights all the time with ballistics as an atlas.

You just need to not suck at MWO to do it.

Bguk, on 06 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

MrPenguin stated it well above.

Counter Point: DIRECT FIRE WEAPONS ARE NOT USELESS AGAINST FAST LIGHTS

http://youtu.be/VCEEt0_PTgo

I'm sorry, you guys were saying something?

[Randommexi]

i somewhat agree with the topic title.

afew things i think that could change and make it abit more balanced would be:

Remove ECM for the Atlas D-DC
Allow BAP to increase the spotting range to 250m

otherwise i think its great as is. if they didnt do both, atleast allowing BAP to help counter ECM alittle would be nice. there is also a module that increases spotting range. i think that should work as well. that would increase the spotting to 280m if combined with BAP. that way people can spot other mechs without being inside their ECM. i'm sorry a 20m window is hardly enough .

also, a decrease in ECM range could also work. say down to 150m? i also dont like that the best way to counter ECM is with ECM.

If they made it so BAP completely countered ECM they would have to restrict which mechs would have access to it. i also like this idea.

i think ECM is close to where it needs to be. but does need a slight tweek to make it more balanced.

just to be clear. i dont think all these things need to be done. just one or two could make it more enjoyable.

Edited by Randommexi, 06 December 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[MrPenguin]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

http://youtu.be/VCEEt0_PTgo

I'm sorry, you guys were saying something?

Oh my god, you didn't even HIT the visual model let alone the hitbox.

This video just proves you can't aim SRM's at all.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I have a hard time taking the OP seriously myself, especially after listening to him whinge in a drop about how borked the server side hit detection is due to him shooting a Catapult in the cockpit with 2 gauss it didn't die! Psst...2 gauss to the cockpit kills nothing, a little short of the required damage for a kill there. Then he complained about how he hit a standing still Jenner with 3 SRM4s and it didn't die! Seriously? On top of that, after listening to that whinging, I then proceeded to use my AC20 and SRM6s to rip a few Mechs in half, because you know, the server side detection is so bad you can't hit what you aim at...

Now he's complaining that ECM makes all but 4 Mechs useless...funny, the Atlas I used in the above drop he as in was my Founders AS7-D, no ECM on it, and it's what I use to go stomp on the ECM carrying Mechs..Commandos, Ravens, Cicadas and Atlases, AC20, 2 SRM6 and 4 MedLas..I don't CARE if you have ECM or not, I don't CARE if you do 35kph or 140kph, I'll hit you, you'll die, I do it all the time, despite the ECM making my Mech useless and the lagshields making Lights impossible to hit and the server side hit detection making it impossible to land ballistics...

Whatever game the OP is playing, it sounds really bad, why don't you come try MWO?

*edit*
just watched the OPs little video..oh my gods..you really can NOT aim can you? You are blaming the GAME for your lack of skill/ability..seriously man...watch how the rest of us do it some time...we lead.

Edited by Kristov Kerensky, 06 December 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[Nonsense]

There's nothing wrong with the vast majority of the way ECM works. The problem is the overlapping fields. When you can stack friendly ECM mechs it forces the enemy to have more ECM mechs to counteract the stacking or to use weapons that don't care about ECM.

If you could defeat ECM in other ways it would be fine.

Quote

Basically, they set out to eliminate the streakcat, and they wound up eliminating all but 4 mechs.

All this "the game is broken" stuff needs to stop. It's a work in progress and it's getting better all the time. The accusation that the devs set out to eliminate streaks as a weapon system by implementing ECM is unbelievably asinine. If they wanted to do that all they would've had to do was nerf streak damage, lockon time/crosshair radius/etc. Obviously they were trying to add something to increase tactical gameplay and they have absolutely done that. It just isn't perfect yet. Please wrap your head around that if you can.

[Harrison Kelly]

In order to run LRMs without a guaranteed TAG person on your team, you need to 1) sacrifice an energy weapon slot and 1 ton for a TAG, 2) Enjoy 25% longer weapons lock time, and 3) Have your effective range nerfed to 450 meters, and 4) Only be able to fire when looking directly at the target. If you do have a TAG person on your team, only #1 applies to you and #2-4 applies to your TAG-Mech.

It's appalling that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the ECM apologists is giving some argument about guided missiles took no skill but man, loading an ECM onto your Mech, clicking save, and then knowing when to push ONE BUTTON in game is the epitome of Mechwarrior Online skill. Nobody wants the release Artemis back. Nobody at all, but the essential argument behind EVERY SINGLE ECM apologist comes down to "I don't like how you play Mechwarrior, so I want your playstyle nerfed out of all use." This is often disguised as "LRMs are support weapons" or "get some skill" or "bring secondary weapons and quit boating, nublet" or "you can dumbfire LRMs."

Meanwhile, in Staggering Double Standard Land, it's okay to boat SRM 6s. It's okay to boat AC2s or UAC5s. It's even okay to boat Medium or Large Lasers. But jeez, don't you dare boat a lock-on missile.

Not only is that biased and narrow-minded, it's utterly myopic. You're telling an entire segment of players that "your playstyle isn't welcome here." You can't be a fire support Mech in the current MWO without handicapping your team. Somebody has to get the thankless job of carrying a TAG and holding a lock on a target for 5+ seconds just so you can fire your weapons? The benefits of LRM damage are not worth that effort and the tonnage. That sounds like it's going to be JUST GREAT for the continued growth and success of MWO.

And also in Staggering Double Standard Land, the same individuals who complained loud and hard about the OP Streakcats (and they were valid complaints, mostly), are happy to mount Streaks on their D-DC Atlas and their COM-2D, as long as they're the only ones who can have them.

For those of you who think, oh, this is just a PUG problem and LRMs/Streaks are still good in 8v8s with teamwork, you're wrong. I've been dropping 8v8s last couple days and the C2 (information warfare) advantage of ECM alone, much less the anti-missile use, of ECM is sufficient that if you're not running 4+ ECM Mechs, you're at a substantial disadvantage. The matches have almost, to a T, involved some kind of standoff where both sides hide under their ECM bubble behind cover and then one side sneaks up on the other into a mass brawl. All but two teams that I've played with or against have been running 3+ ECM Mechs. Both teams that didn't run lots of ECM were defeated handily, something like 8-2.

Yes, it's that good, just based on information warfare alone, let alone negating any kind of guided missile that's not a Streak on an ECM Mech. The fact that a single piece of equipment confers so much of an advantage is being shown in the prevalence of mass-ECM Mechs in 8v8s backed up by close-in brawler heavies/assaults.

ECM is on the same level with the release Artemis uberLRMS in that the game revolves around its use and THAT is not cool.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I run mostly Catapults, primarily a K2. I've done LRMs and SRM6s and Strks and Laser Cats also.

Edited by Harrison Kelly, 06 December 2012 - 11:28 AM.

[Codejack]

MrPenguin, on 06 December 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

Oh my god, you didn't even HIT the visual model let alone the hitbox.

This video just proves you can't aim SRM's at all.

Ah, another light pilot willing to come on and flat out lie to metagame his way into a more powerful mech. Don't bother replying to me, anymore, your opinion is officially worthless.

[AlexWildeagle]

I love the hysteria...you took away my easy mode....

I'm a pugger and I use the CTF-1M, which means no ECM. I had multiple matches where no one on my team had ECM and the other team did. We still won, 8 puggers. So please enough of the chicken little just cause they brought the game back to be more like Battle Tech.

Yes ECM works differently but it's brought the game back more in-line with how BT is. Missles are support weapons, not primary battlefield weapons. LRM boats are an abomination, not a normal mech.
I'm really glad ECM is here because things were really out of control with missiles.

Edited by AlexWildeagle, 06 December 2012 - 11:34 AM.