117 replies to this topic

[zenstrata]

Maybe I have just been lucky when firing at enemies, but I don't have problems identifying friendlies from foes when being ecm jammed. When I have seen friendlies they still seem to have blue arrows, its the ecm covered mechs that have no id marks. Friendlies still seem to be marked. And I have not gotten any team kills. . so my strategy seems to be working so far.

[Gaden Phoenix]

I believe the following should be done:
1. ECM should not stack
2. BAP should counter ECM. Allow mechs under ECM field except for ECM mechs to be detected at standard 500m.
3. Once a player sees an ECM mech, the sector the ECM mech was last seems should on the map become transparent light red for 15 seconds to show others that an ECM mech was sighted there.

[Fenix0742]

My suggestons:
Increase weight to 3 tons
Allow NARC to function under ECM
Move ECM from the D-DC to the K.

[Kaziganthi]

Easiest way to fix it. In this timeline only the RAVEN had it equipped, therefor no other mech should be able to install it.

Also BAP was the counter measure for ECM.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 05 December 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Want me to tell you how to fix it? Ok. Very simple actually, Piranha. Hope you read this one because I'm probably not going to type all this again.

1) Jammed Detection range should be 450 at the least... not the pathetic 200 it is. Why is it 1/4 of normal instead of a value between 1/3-1/2? This needs to be fixed. 45% of 100%(450 from 1,000) would be much more logical. Why is the jammed value so low? It basically means LRMs are useless because they already have a minimum range of 180. So you've got a whole 20 meter window to lock on and shoot... which isn't even farther away than Streaks since you're already under 270 in this window. If you have to get this close, you may as well use Streaks instead. As a result LRMs are now unable to shoot from farther away than Streaks and entirely pointless... that's extremely stupid game design. The jammed value needs to go up to around 450 so you can actually keep "some" distance and still shoot. Streaks should require you to get very close, but not also LRMs. So that's problem 1; the jammed value needs increasing. It is doing more than twice what it logically should be doing. In other games it reduced you to 75% to 50% of normal; here you're reduced to 25%, and not even the BAP will help... which brings me to the next point...

2) The BAP needs to do something. Logically it should remove the jamming entirely for the single person using the device and restore you to normal detection.(Which would mainly be missile boats wanting their radar back for max range locks) One would shorten range, the other would extend/restore range. Not a complicated concept.(Unless you're the guy working on MechWarrior Online?) The BAP by itself should extend your range. Vs an ECM it should extend the jammed range to normal range when they cancel each other out.(Or maybe raise the 45% to 75%?) Sadly the BAP, which should be the obvious counterweight to the ECM, does absolutely nothing to help. Them writing in, "The BAP does nothing" is basically a middle finger. This is problem 2; the BAP, a device made specifically to improve sensors/counter ECMs, does nothing now in this game. Every enemy team will have an ECM and since the BAP does nothing against them, they may as well have just removed this device. I can't imagine what they were thinking by not allowing the BAP to counter at least some of the jammed radar range. But the BAP isn't the only device that is now utterly worthless...

3) NARC should also counter an ECM if used. Currently NARC vs no ECM = buffed missiles on the target. NARC vs ECM should = disabled ECM, but that isn't the case. Like the BAP, the NARC is a tool made specifically to mark the target for missile locking and/or to counter an ECM, yet also does nothing to help. This is problem 3; the NARC also does nothing to help. It and the BAP are both completely useless now. The Tag still does something, but why not the NARC? the NARC should disable the ECM on a Mech while the NARC beacon is active. This would make it a great viable counter weapon.

4) Instead of doing anything like any of that though, they want you to instead have your own team run an ECM in "counter mode" to disable an enemy ECM. But not every Mech can slot an ECM, so don't you see how stupid this is? This second mode shouldn't exist at all. The ECM should have counterweights from the other things already in the game that more people can actually use. It shouldn't revolve around ECM vs ECM, it should revolve around ECM vs NARCs and ECM vs BAPs, etc. Instead they threw out the logical counterweights already in the game and instead put in an illogical one just so ECMs would be the only thing anyone ever cares about. So this is problem 4; "counter mode" shouldn't exist. We should be able to counter the ECM with other game technologies(Need some? See points 2 and 3). The solution to the ECM shouldn't be "bring an ECM yourself" or "bring more ECMs than the enemy", it should be, "Bring a BAP.", or "Shoot a NARC". Am I getting through to anyone? Or are people just writing this thinking how much of an ***** I am?

4 relatively simple points towards fixing this problem they foolishly created by ignoring the community or other technologies in the game. I tried to tell them not to put in that broken OP device like that. Now I'm trying to tell them how to fix it... I should get an MC reward or something for things like this...

Edited by Bluten, 05 December 2012 - 10:00 PM.

[p4r4g0n]

Personally, I find it annoying how significantly ECM has altered game play and I'm not sure why PGI regards this as a good thing. Why shouldn't ECM's effect just be applicable to the mech carrying the ECM i.e. for scouting and to protect the command mech?

As it stands, game play for PUGs seems to have devolved into blobbing or base rushing when someone is carrying an ECM and for the team without ECM, it is rush to brawl. It has also heavily skewed PUG games in favour of premades with VOIP which doesn't make the new player experience any better.

Having said that, I've only been trying this for one day so let's see if anything changes over the next few days.

Suggestion: I don't believe ECM should run all the time. Make ECM usage time limited i.e. you can only use it for a limited period after which it goes into cool down. When cool down period expires, ECM can be used again. This can be based on a pure timer or through heat generation. This will require ECM carrier to actually consider the best time to use ECM.

Edit: Comments should be read in the context of PUGging only and solo pugger.

Edited by p4r4g0n, 05 December 2012 - 11:25 PM.

[USMC Iceman]

Why is it that every one needs to see ECM changed when its only been out for 48 hours. I have seen many team find easy ways to counter ECM. I know that if you have to try and think around this issue it could be hard but Having a lock on some one dosn't allow you to hit them with Direct fire.

Yes you can't see them on your Radar. LOL So. Have some scouts .. Play Scout and run out with ECCM and find them. Use ECM with your group and gain the same effect.

With out ECM all you needed was some one to stand on a hill with LRMS and Smash any one not crawling around cover. Now you need Team work. I think that is the main issue. Team work will win. And when you can't find a way to fix how your team plays and supports each other people look to " Nurf " them. This was first seen with the four man Team aka " Team work Nurf "

Please Try and come up with strategy to defeat ECM and don't just try and use a brain tax system to fix the fail of players unwilling to give something a few weeks grow the game.

I do find this very funny how bad the sky is falling.

When they are done lobotomizing ECM I guess its back to LRM and SSRM Nurfing.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

It needed changing before it even came out. I don't know why people drop a "it just came out line". It shouldn't even have released like this and some of us tried to tell them that. There also are no counters, not really. The BAP and NARC do nothing at all, as I said in my wall. Those should have been effective counters; instead they do nothing. You're wrong yet again by saying the game now has team work in it. What we had before was teamwork. Now it's just "huddle around the ECM for missile immunity and bumrush the base". If the thing wasn't so OP and had counterweights; there would actually be teamwork. But it is, and there isn't. It watered down what was already a repetitive single simple game mode. I'd rather have fought the Streakcats than this.

[Belkor]

p00k, on 05 December 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

then every mech will mount ecm, because the current stacking scheme gives the team that has more ecm's a huge advantage. every light will run ecm out of fear of streakcats, every streakcat will run ecm out of fear of ecm, every other mech will run ecm out of fear of lagshielded ecm'd lights. it basically becomes a necessity

Running a pure auto lock-on build is no longer viable... which is perfect. No mechs should simply rely on pure auto lock-ons as a crutch. ECMs are causing users to diversify weapon systems.

Edited by Belkor, 05 December 2012 - 10:48 PM.

[DerSpecht]

Bluten, on 05 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

It needed changing before it even came out. I don't know why people drop a "it just came out line". It shouldn't even have released like this and some of us tried to tell them that. There also are no counters, not really. The BAP and NARC do nothing at all, as I said in my wall. Those should have been effective counters; instead they do nothing. You're wrong yet again by saying the game now has team work in it. What we had before was teamwork. Now it's just "huddle around the ECM for missile immunity and bumrush the base". If the thing wasn't so OP and had counterweights; there would actually be teamwork. But it is, and there isn't. It watered down what was already a repetitive single simple game mode. I'd rather have fought the Streakcats than this.

ECCM works just fine against ECM.. you just have to know when to push the button..

All i see is ppl who are having trouble to adapt and want ECM rendered useless..

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Belkor, on 05 December 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Running a pure auto lock-on build is no longer viable... which is perfect. No mechs should simply rely on pure auto lock-ons as a crutch. ECMs are causing users to diversify weapon systems.

I don't think you know what "diversify" means. Simply; it means to get a mixture. Rendering an entire weapon system useless doesn't accomplish this. If you don't like Streak A1s, then nerf Streaks or change the variant. Those are the logical approaches to the problem. The illogical one, and most stupid one by far, is to release a device that renders the entire weapon system itself useless. Streaks were OP, I'll admit that, but burying them in the ground shouldn't have been the solution. They could have just made the ECM lengthen the lock timer and/or reduce Streak damage taken and that would have been enough... But nope, instead they made it so you can't lock on to the enemy, at all, unless you're within a 20 meter wide magic window. GL staying in that window long enough to shoot.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

DerSpecht, on 05 December 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

ECCM works just fine against ECM.. you just have to know when to push the button..

All i see is ppl who are having trouble to adapt and want ECM rendered useless..

I explained in my wall that the ECM shouldn't be the counter for the ECM. We have other weapons for that and they are what should be counterweights. But instead Piranha made them worthless for their logical purpose and want you to use only ECMs to counter ECMs. This doesn't make any sense. The BAP should be a counter... not another ECM... But no, just bring ECMs, to use and counter. Why bring anything else? Why even have this other stuff in the game if they aren't worth anything? The BAP was already bad before, now it's just a hunk of junk.(Along with the sensor module, Artemis, and NARC. They're all completely worthless. You should have a problem with this.)

I also never said anything about rendering the ECM useless. I don't work at Piranha. That's something they would do.(And already did. See the BAP) It should offer jamming and added missile protection(note "protection" and "immunity" are not the same thing).

Edited by Bluten, 05 December 2012 - 11:11 PM.

[geek]

What about PPCs hits disabling ECM for a good chunk of time? Like 30 seconds?

[Pr0of]

I've posted in several forums about the issue, but I want to continue on ones that I see potential of actually being read by devs...that being said; here are my thoughts. (Oh, btw I work in the game industry (as an artist) and hear/deal with this crap on a daily basis).

Anyway, it is a well known fact that successful games are more or less based around a rock, paper, scissors model...or even on a larger scale such as rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock. If you consider ECM the paper to LRM/SSRM's rock, it is clearly quite effective. The unfortunate truth at the moment is that the only truly effective counter to ECM's paper is more paper. The "counter-play" is not about strategy, resourcefulness, or diversity as much as it is, bring enough ECM mechs to counter the enemies ECM mechs. That leads to the non-"paper" variants being mothballed in order to fulfill the necessary e-war "king of the hill" game being played.

That being said what are solutions?
Well, simply put, there needs to be a scissors variant. Something that is not ECM that nullifies the effects of ECM. If that is too extreme, there needs to be something that at least alleviates some of the effects of ECM on those affected by it. A great idea that has been floating around is to give users with BAP equipped some benefits, such as the ability to see target info unhindered within a certain range. They perhaps would not be able to gain target lock or lock at a much slower rate, but they would be rewarded for having such a module equipped. Another idea is to have TAG with an extended range, furthermore perhaps not have its effects nullified inside of the ECM "bubble". Finally, NARC needs a niche, extremely bad. This device in its current state is not worth the tonnage. I think NARC should last for at least 1 minute and not be affected by ECM. Some will argue that "In TT, ECM was the direct counter to TAG/NARC/BAP", well unfortunately, this is no longer table top. There are no dice rolls here, this is not turn based, and you do not have a god's eye view. There needs to be counters, and counters to counters, etc. All of which need to be manageable from real time. If this is to be a successful video game certain deviations from TT need to be taken to give more dynamic and down right entertaining game play. The nuances from TT can still be there, but it cannot be the same on every front.

Edited by Pr0of, 05 December 2012 - 11:55 PM.

[yashmack]

I say leave it alone, its fine how it is...

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

yashmack, on 05 December 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

I say leave it alone, its fine how it is...

Remove the ECM from the game and then we'll agree with leaving it "how it is".

[yashmack]

ECM has always been in battletech, I was shocked to find there was no ECM when I first started playing, then I found out they were planning to put it in the game
there has to be a counter to lock on "smart" weapons, ECM is one of them and it works just fine as far as I am concerned
add a tag to your mech... its not hard

[JudgeDeathCZ]

I like implementation in MW:LL.Well there is not ECM but only GECM and AECM and GECM decrease detection range by half(in MW:LL its 500m) and increase lock-on time 2 or 3 times not sure now.NO stealth abilites and its ONLY for mech carrying it+not afect NARC.
AECM(which is better than GECM)reduce detectin range to 300m umbrella and makes you immune to NARC.
And in MW:LL it WORKS bcuz NEVER saw any topic about how ECM is under or overpowered...

And well when ECM giving us this level of stealth what we will get form AECM or null-signature systemwhich are both better) with stealth armor.Detection at 1 meter and Predator-like stealth ability?

Edited by JudgeDeathCZ, 06 December 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

yashmack, on 05 December 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

ECM has always been in battletech, I was shocked to find there was no ECM when I first started playing, then I found out they were planning to put it in the game
there has to be a counter to lock on "smart" weapons, ECM is one of them and it works just fine as far as I am concerned
add a tag to your mech... its not hard

BAP should have been the counter, at least for the 1 guy carrying it. And yes Tag is hard, as opposed to the 0 effort fully passive/automatic ECM device. Tag actually takes a weapon point and has to be channeled on a target, which it will then cancel the ECM on that 1 enemy while it is going. ECM takes up no such hardpoint, is totally automatic in execution, and affects EVERYONE.(Ally or enemy) Quite a big difference there, no?

I'm glad people keep stumbling in here to bump the thread though, maybe Piranha will eventually read some of the finer points previously said.

Edited by Bluten, 06 December 2012 - 12:23 AM.

[OVBlueGhost]

Like this thread, lots of good ideas (still some pointless complaining though!)

Anyway the first fix it absolutely must have to make pugging viable and thus stop the new player experience being quite so horrific - ECM cannot remove your friendlies from radar when the bubble hits you.

As it stands an assault by ECM capable team vs non-ECM capable team (which the match making system throws up far too regularly) is absolute chaos you have no idea where the enemy is so you cannot support you have no idea if your friendlies are falling back or engaging so it just comes down to luck and having more ECM, balance asside this is simply not fun, it also give a huge buff to teams on voice, who already had a huge advantage.

I love the idea of having fake radar signatures thrown up though, not sue if it needs it's own mode for this.

Other than that I'm not sure it needs the ranges changed for default tweak and see - BAP needs a role in countering ECM though otherwise whats the point of BAP???

Pretty dissapointed that PGI have again released something so massively out of whack which is co-incidentally quite expensive to run (see artamis, streaks, jenners, cata, illya) seems far too plausible that the real aim is to make everyone spend money to run FotM, balance shouldn't be sacrificed for $$ chaps.