138 replies to this topic

[Kobold]

Codejack, on 08 December 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

Here's my test: Was a streakcat by itself likely to turn the outcome of the match? Compare to ECM

It is possible to believe that ECM is badly implemented and too powerful, as well as believe Streaks are also badly implemented and too powerful.

These are not mutually exclusive.

Edited by Kobold, 08 December 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[Codejack]

Kobold, on 08 December 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

It is possible to believe that ECM is badly implemented and too powerful, as well as believe Streaks are also badly implemented and too powerful.

These are not mutually exclusive.

I didn't say that they were, but are you telling me that streakcats were even half as unbalanced as ECM is now? Did any PUG with a streakcat start the match with everyone saying, "Follow the streakcat if you want to live?"

It's not a matter of either/or, it's a matter of degree. I would have been fine with ECM increasing lock-on time, smoke and shake being decreased, multiple suggestions to penalize chain-firing streaks, etc, but this was just flat overkill.

Admittedly, part of the problem is that I am absolutely sick of playing my Commando

[Ookisaru]

Personally I quite like ECM as currently implemented, however, I agree that further tweaks need to be made (either to ECM / missiles or Both).

In terms of LRMs I quite like the idea of giving dumb fired missiles the ability to (loosely) home in on the firing mech's targeting ****** while a key is held down. This would make LRMs useful against slower mech's and when firing into brawls even where ECM is present.

I also think if ECM is to remain as it currently is NARC needs to trump it. I understand this runs counter to tabletop, however, as ECM is implemented differently it makes sense to modify NARC's interaction with it. Allowing NARC to trump ECM would provide an interesting mechanic where NARCed mechs are potentially forced to find cover / retreat (potentially breaking up groups / ECM bubbles).

I suspect NARC and TAG could also use some kind of C-Bill reward to incentivise their use - the Tag / NARC mech getting credited for any missile damage to the target while effected (for example).

[Codejack]

Ookisaru, on 08 December 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

I also think if ECM is to remain as it currently is NARC needs to trump it. I understand this runs counter to tabletop, however, as ECM is implemented differently it makes sense to modify NARC's interaction with it. Allowing NARC to trump ECM would provide an interesting mechanic where NARCed mechs are potentially forced to find cover / retreat (potentially breaking up groups / ECM bubbles).

Well, ECM is wildly counter to tabletop, too, isn't it? So why shouldn't NARC, BAP, TAG, and anything else change, as well?

[Ookisaru]

Codejack, on 08 December 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Well, ECM is wildly counter to tabletop, too, isn't it? So why shouldn't NARC, BAP, TAG, and anything else change, as well?

I agree entirely.

In order to encourage NARC use I think it also needs something to make it fun / useful regardless of whether you end up dropping with a team with lots LRMs on it (especially given that LRMs already have reasonable homing abilities in MWO).
For example, when you tag someone with NARC 5 LRMs could spawn in the air a few seconds later targeted at the NARCed mech (representing an aerospace fighter fly by at high altitude). This would encourage people to "risk" taking NARC in pugs (as it still does something), without creating too much imbalance (as an LRM5 is lighter, has more ammo, and can be used more than once per NARC cycle.

[Nightcrept]

I'm going to post my ideas then I will go back and read the entire thread so If I retread an idea please forgive me.

SSRm's.

1. Randomization of impact points on target.
2. Requires a new lock everytime a new missile is loaded. i.e. after they are fired.
3. Make their cool down time Double or more the cool-down time of srms.
4. ECM prevents lock.
5. Can be fired in dumb mode if no lock is possible due to ecm.


Lrm's.
1. Indirect fire mode.
Lrm mech can only keep lock when the mech sharing sensor information has the target in its crosshairs.

2. Direct fire mode.
Lrms go where the crosshairs are but travel faster. Basically comparable to modern guide by wire munitions.



Artemis:

1.Speeds up missile flight speed, adjusts flight path and tightens cluster.


ECM: 1.Keep it as is.
2.ECM can still counter ecm on a battlefield wide scale.

Tag, Narc: 1.Lights up the mech hit.
2. Increases the speed, flight path and tightens cluster of the lrms.

BAP: 1.Mech with bap installed still has coms jamed if inside ecm bubble so info cannot be shared.
2.Mech with bap installed can see all mechs except the ecm mech itself.

Sensor modules etc:
1.Lessen the range covered by enemy ecms according to the sensors boosting percentage.

It maybe possible to do some sort of papper, rock ,scissors where ecm stacking can counter baps and bap stacking plus info sharing outside the ecm bubble can negate the ecm but I'm too tired to think about it...lol.

Edited by Nightcrept, 08 December 2012 - 11:14 PM.

[Kobold]

I think there is general consensus that LRMs aren't that bad right now, but if ECM is going to stay in its current form, there needs to be a better direct-fire option for LRMs.

I don't think cool down time is a good way to balance streaks, mainly because against the large, slow moving targets (the ones that you may need multiple salvos to hit), the streaks weren't that super powerful anyways. Against light, fast mechs, the fact that you can't shoot as many of them won't really matter when you alpha strike with 4 SSRM6 launchers that all auto-hit.

Unfortunately, it is hard to offer more complex solutions as to how streaks should work (given that they are a complex system in TT, this isn't a surprise) because we are unlikely to get a response from a dev in this thread about how plausible any of the more complex solutions are.

[Khobai]

Quote

Unfortunately, it is hard to offer more complex solutions as to how streaks should work

What if they just turned into unguided SRM2s when they were disrupted by ECM? Like they do in tabletop? Then ECM wouldnt be a hard counter at least.

[cleghorn6]

Awesome discussion everyone.

I would agree with the general consensus that LRMs are working approximately as they should. I would agree that ECM preventing locks is a problem. Longer times, sure, smaller boxes to hold lock, sure, no lock at all seems harsh. Actually no, no lock at all seems like it's aimed at SSRMs and LRMs are just collateral damage.

As for SSRMs, I would like to see a forced re-lock after firing, I would also like to see a restricted firing arc. Remember all we're seeing right now is SSRM2s. Boating SSRM6s with the current system would be ... disruptive.

As for indirect fire and use of allied targetting, I believe that's the purview of C3 (if I'm remembering my lore correctly, it has been probably 20 years since I played a lot of TT). It will be very interesting to see a full electronic warfare suite put into the field.

Finally, I think one of the problems that we're dealing with is that the EW gear was designed for TT and is structured for use in organised lances/companies/units. The items dovetail nicely and each has their counter. With the current match-making system, organised units are simply not what we're dealing with. Even if PGI buff TAG/Narc/whatever to counter ECM, there is no guarantee in a random drop that anyone will be mounting one. And somewhere there will be a game full of Ravens with TAG/NARC up the wazoo and no one with an LRM launcher. I think we would be talking about a VERY different thing if we were all dropping in organised units of 8 where we could pick specific loadouts and mechs for specific battlefield purposes.

I am deeply impressed by the quality of discourse in this thread. I generally avoid the forums, I get sick of all the "EHRMAGHERD, THER GERM ERZ BERKERN" posts/threads/forums. You have restored my faith in the forum population's ability to rationally respond to an issue. Thank you.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Everything is working great now. We are having fun games. Nothing needs to change regarding guided weapons. Once 750m tag comes in then you shouldn't have any more excuses.

[Nightcrept]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 09 December 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

Everything is working great now. We are having fun games. Nothing needs to change regarding guided weapons. Once 750m tag comes in then you shouldn't have any more excuses.

I think that the general consesus is that tag is not a proper counter.

[Sovolis]

Giving this thread a bump for Kobold since it is the only thread with actual worthwhile discussion and ideas for fixing the problem.

[Kobold]

Sovolis, on 09 December 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Giving this thread a bump for Kobold since it is the only thread with actual worthwhile discussion and ideas for fixing the problem.

[Sovolis]

Again; only thread worth reading on the subject, so I will bump it again. I would love to see a dev wade into the pool of discussion; come on in, the water is fine.

[J0anna]

I'll bump this too, the fact that using ECM prevents enemy streak/LRM's from locking, but your own work fine is turning this game into a bad joke. My solution, ECM prevents ALL missile locks (enemy and friendly) in it's range unless countered.

[Naeron66]

Or they could just have the missiles act more in the way that they should and have ECM reduce the lock range for missiles and increase the lock time.

With LRMS for every 5 missiles fired have 3 hit the target (4 with Artemis and add 1 if the target has TAG or NARC on it, have ECM cancel these bonuses). Have them hit random locations on the mech that are not blocked by cover, might need to increase damage back up by a small amount, 2 should be the maximum though.

With Streaks have each missile, or pair of missiles hit a random location on the mech (this would need damage increased to 3-4 per missile as armour is doubled). Make Streaks have a firing arc (a decent one but there should be one), if the target is not in the arc they don't fire.

LRM boats should then be balanced, Streaks would then be balanced, even a Streak Cat would be spreading its damage across 6 locations minimum so coring mechs would take more shots.

Edited by Naeron66, 10 December 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[Imagine Dragons]

I would be extremely interested how the game would play out if PGI removes the free C3i computers in all mechs... and then buff LRM damage back to 2.

Would be interesting to see how ECM plays into affect there.

[Sovolis]

Daily bump since this is the only thread addressing the real issues and community members aren't acting like total asshats here.

[SteelPaladin]

XenomorphZZ, on 10 December 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

I would be extremely interested how the game would play out if PGI removes the free C3i computers in all mechs... and then buff LRM damage back to 2.

Would be interesting to see how ECM plays into affect there.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at by referring to "free C3i" and buffing LRM damage. C3 was never needed to spot for indirect LRM fire.

[Imagine Dragons]

SteelPaladin, on 11 December 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at by referring to "free C3i" and buffing LRM damage. C3 was never needed to spot for indirect LRM fire.

Wait what? I thought C3 was need to share targeting telemetry between mechs? I mean if the Catapult wanted to fire at a target out of its LoS, while a Jenner had LoS of the target, both mechs would need a C3 computer in order for the Jenner to "spot" the target for the Catapult... <-- TT&Fluff

Which translates into the "R" key functionalty for MWO.

Or atleast that was my understanding...

From Sarna;
C3
"Basically a special tight-beam communications network, they are used to share targeting data between 'Mechs and Combat Vehicles."

Edited by XenomorphZZ, 11 December 2012 - 08:11 AM.