42 replies to this topic

[Lupus Aurelius]

Yes, another ECM post, but with data. I wanted to spend a couple days evaluating and researching ECM in MWO, and the Battletech rules, instead of just knee-jerking a reaction.

Per the Classic BattleTech Master Rules, page 136:
http://www.lski.org/...20-%20Clear.pdf

"An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of
sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."

Effects:

-Active Probes: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed.
-Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of the Artemis IV FCS. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but the Missile Hits Table bonus is lost.
-Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Missile Hits Table bonus for that system if they are affected by ECM. The Narc launcher itself is
not affected by ECM.
-C3 Computer: ECM has the effect of “cutting off” any C3 equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network by being inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network “below” it is effectively shut off (all units subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 135). Only those C3 units that can draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass into or through the ECM radius can access the network."

Based on the above, ECM should only cloak the mech it is mounted on, not all friendly units within the 180m radius. Narc should still allow targeting, but the missle bonus is lost, and transmitting targeting data should still work if line of sight with the "master unit" - which could be whoever grabs the commander function in a drop.

This would still allow for scouts to be stealthy and get targeting info for their team, or for heavier mechs, allow for the ablity to hide location of part of their force if those mechs have ECM equipped. LRMs and Dtreaks would be less effective/not effective against those units, but still would be effective against non-ECM equipped mechs.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 06 December 2012 - 08:46 AM.

[PurpleNinja]

How I miss the tabletop rules.

[kilgor]

Since it specifies LoS through the bubble, it would apply to friendly units within the bubble as well. But looking closely, it doesn't indicate that normal targeting is disrupted, just advanced targeting such as C3, Artemis IV, NARC, and BAP. And Streaks aren't disrupted by Guardian ECM, but by Angel ECM, which didn't begin development until after the Battle of Luthien in 3052, but still allowed them to act as regular SRMs. The only advanced targeting that could defeat Guardian ECM was the Bloodhound Active Probe, which was developed by Comstar in 3058, but it couldn't counter the Angel ECM. ECCM can counter ECM, but I was looking at advanced targeting methods.

As much as I like Guardian ECM in its current implementation, if we were going by BT rules, it wouldn't be cloaking people, just disabling advanced targeting methods. I guess the closest thing to cloaking was the Null Signature System.

Edited by kilgor, 06 December 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[MadcatX]

So... QQ because the game doesn't follow the TT rules.. again?

[Joseph Mallan]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Yes, another ECM post, but with data. I wanted to spend a couple days evaluating and researching ECM in MWO, and the Battletech rules, instead of just knee-jerking a reaction.

Per the Classic BattleTech Master Rules, page 136:
http://www.lski.org/...20-%20Clear.pdf

"An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of
sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."

if a friendly Unit is standing in the ECM field your line of sight has to though the bubble to affect the target. This rule was beaten to death at many TT events myself and other commandos, agents and TT game Devs ran. I am sorry but you are mistaken sir.

[Lupus Aurelius]

ATM, overall this is having a negative impact on gameplay. For PUGs, or 4 man groups with PUGs, since you have no idea what you will drop with, it almost forces everyone to select an ECM capable mech equipped with ECM. This limits or removes the ablity to run with a preferred mech and configuration, reducing the variety of game play and limiting tactics to hiding under the ECM umbrella.

For 8 man group drops it's even worse. After over a dozen drops, what we saw was:
-9 of the 12 had 2 ECM fast mechs and 6 assaults fit for short range punch. Of those 9, 7 had over 4 Atlas D-DCs!
-7 of the matches were straight out base rush under ECM cover, with no attempt to engage in any kind of tactics.
-4 of those matches had the enemy all crowded around their base under the ECM umbrella.
-1 match there was an actual engagement mid map with some attempt at movement and tactics.
-3 of the matches had an actual spread of mechs from lights to assaults that gave a balance of capabilities.

Add to that that the 8 man premade drops has no balancing mechanism as far as tonnage or composition, and you have a very static type of gameplay developing, where assaults, the Raven and the Cicada are the only things you will find most of the time, This limits the variety of gameplay possible, and also forces play based around a very limited composition and fit.

[wanderer]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Based on the above, ECM should only cloak the mech it is mounted on, not all friendly units within the 180m radius. Narc should still allow targeting, but the missle bonus is lost, and transmitting targeting data should still work if line of sight with the "master unit" - which could be whoever grabs the commander function in a drop.

You're reading that wrong.

ECM has no HOSTILE effects on friendly 'Mechs in it's radius. They do get all the benefits, however. Common mistake for newbies to TT. Sorry, but you're wrong on that plain and simple.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

if a friendly Unit is standing in the ECM field your line of sight has to though the bubble to affect the target. This rule was beaten to death at many TT events myself and other commandos, agents and TT game Devs ran. I am sorry but you are mistaken sir.

Thru the bubble is not "cloaking" the friendly units by having the ECM unit stand within 180-m of a friendly. They have to be in between a friendly and a hostile, so if a hostile were to spread out and shift position, guess what happens then? They get line of sight that does not pass thru the bubble, and can target.

So, you sir, are the mistaken one...

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 06 December 2012 - 08:45 AM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

wanderer, on 06 December 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

You're reading that wrong.

ECM has no HOSTILE effects on friendly 'Mechs in it's radius. They do get all the benefits, however. Common mistake for newbies to TT. Sorry, but you're wrong on that plain and simple.

No. You are reading it wrong

" The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."

Which means for the disruption to affect hostile units, the ECM mech has to either:
1) Stand with 180 m of the hostile mechs
2) Stand between the hostile mechs and the friendly mechs so that the hostile line of sight passes thru the 180 m bubble.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 06 December 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Apoc1138]

infact - in TT ECM is even better, because the friendly unit doesn't even need to be INSIDE the 180m, the 180m bubble only needs to be somewhere between the targetting mech and the friendly mech

QUICK PGI, hot fix this obvious flaw and make MWO more like TT

Edited by Apoc1138, 06 December 2012 - 08:46 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

First off, Classic Battletech Master Rules are outdated. the rules you want would be from "Total Warfare".

Secondly, while I understand the frustration with ECM currently, the problem doesn't sit with the equipment itself, but with the overarching gamemode we're stuck playing.

want an ECM fix? New Gamemodes is it.

[JadeViper]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

Add to that that the 8 man premade drops has no balancing mechanism as far as tonnage or composition, and you have a very static type of gameplay developing, where assaults, the Raven and the Cicada are the only things you will find most of the time, This limits the variety of gameplay possible, and also forces play based around a very limited composition and fit.

Yes, It does feel like our hands are being forced. Matches don't feel the same. It's not about grid squares and and scouting. Its about bubbles. It sucks having every game revolved around 1 or 2 mechs. The dev's jsut changed the game from TDM/Objective, to escort the VIP.

Did I mention I hate VIP modes?

Edited by JadeViper, 06 December 2012 - 08:58 AM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Jade Kitsune, on 06 December 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

First off, Classic Battletech Master Rules are outdated. the rules you want would be from "Total Warfare".

Secondly, while I understand the frustration with ECM currently, the problem doesn't sit with the equipment itself, but with the overarching gamemode we're stuck playing.

want an ECM fix? New Gamemodes is it.

Same rules in "Total Warfare" pg 134:
http://www.scribd.co...1-Total-Warfare

[Mercules]

Jade Kitsune, on 06 December 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

Secondly, while I understand the frustration with ECM currently, the problem doesn't sit with the equipment itself, but with the overarching gamemode we're stuck playing.

It's more the other equipment and not ECM, specifically how PGI put in LRMs and SSRMs.
http://mwomercs.com/...add-a-band-aid/

[Xyroc]

MadcatX, on 06 December 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

So... QQ because the game doesn't follow the TT rules.. again?

I saw some suggestions to what one person thought could be a good idea not someone crying. Dont be a thread troll

[Joseph Mallan]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Thru the bubble is not "cloaking" the friendly units by having the ECM unit stand within 180-m of a friendly. They have to be in between a friendly and a hostile, so if a hostile were to spread out and shift position, guess what happens then? They get line of sight that does not pass thru the bubble, and can target.

So, you sir, are the mistaken one...

No sir, i have it from the horses mouth (or at least the ones at the time). As a Demo rep for the TT game I had to "know" the intent of the rules for when Rule Lawyers tried to bring their interpretation to an official game.

[wanderer]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

No. You are reading it wrong

" The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."

By definition, standing within 180m of the ECM user means that all hostile LOS is passing through the bubble- the OP was stating that nobody but the user got the benefits of ECM even if they were standing inside it. As noted, TT ECM is actually more effective in that even if you're on the opposite side of the bubble from the enemy but not in it, you STILL get the benefits.

[Mythweaver]

Thankfully we are playing Mech Warrior Online and Not Classic Battletech or Total Warfare. ECM has added the need for new tactics and roles within each lance, PUG or not. People need to embrace these new technologies and the challenges brought by them. I am an avid player of the tabletop game and I feel the Devs are doing an outstanding job of bringing it to life. This is the Beta, there are going to bumps and inbalances, there are also opportunities for fantastic feats of heroism and tragic loss. ECM has done nothing more than elevate the level of awesome in this game. We've had LRM week and Gaussapult month, ECM will level out as well....be patient.

Edited by Mythweaver, 09 December 2012 - 08:40 AM.

[Void Angel]

MadcatX, on 06 December 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

So... QQ because the game doesn't follow the TT rules.. again?

Actually, they're still wrong based on the tabletop rules. We're actually playing a double-blind game (from the Battletech Tactical Handbook [8630]) which does indeed specify that ECM systems make sensor spotting of enemy units more difficult. As MWO combines visual and sensor spotting, this means that ECM is working properly, even as a pure adaptation of the tabletop game.

None of which actually makes complaints based on the tabletop game any less completely invalid. MWO is not a mere adaptation of the 1980s tabletop game, nor should it be.

That being said, there are certainly balance issues with MWO - ironing out those issues is what Beta is for.

Edited by Void Angel, 11 December 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

BUMP!