154 replies to this topic

[Damocles69]

Bap should only allow targeting of mechs under the ecm blanket not the mech with ecm directly equipped to it. the bap mech is also the only mech allowed to see those targets under the ecm blanket he is not allowed to share those targets with his teammates' huds thus making communication still very important. Once the bap mech is within the 180m influance of the ecm mech bap ceases to function. I would also add an indicator visual tag to bap enabled mechs like we have for the ecm so running bap makes you a target. Tag buffed to 750m. Ecm is left alone. Now tag bap and ecm are all viable and good. As an added bouns ams is now used again as well. Just my two cents.

[Odins Fist]

So many "NO" votes...

[Codejack]

OriginalTibs, on 06 December 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

We need to see what other systems/effects are in the development pipeline before we try to assert or lobby for changes to recently introduced systems..

OK. What other systems are you expecting? ECM, BAP, TAG, NARC, etc all came from TT Battletech, and PGI is following the timeline, so nothing else should be expected short of incoming Clan tech.

Not only that, but ECM in MWO combines the features of many TT systems (BAP, ECM, NSS), as well as being vastly more powerful overall (sensors could target ECM mechs at close range in TT without any special equipment at all) and having practically no disadvantages.

Odins Fist, on 06 December 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

So many "NO" votes...

Yea, but look how many times the same people are clamoring against this without presenting any kind of argument; I wonder if they're voting with dummy accounts?

[General Taskeen]

Sevaradan, on 06 December 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

look at my signature I'm clearly an assault driver...

And to all who cry about "MWO is Balanced." I'm calling it now, all sayers of "Its Balanced," will be sorely disappointed 6 to 12 months from now when MWO is actually Balanced.

Edited by General Taskeen, 06 December 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[Codejack]

General Taskeen, on 06 December 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

And to all who cry about "MWO is Balanced." I'm calling it now, all sayers of "Its Balanced," will be sorely disappointed 6 to 12 months from now when MWO is actually Balanced.

They don't understand that they are abusing the unbalanced system because it is advantageous for their playstyle.

I'm abusing the unbalanced system, too but I understand that it has to be fixed.

[fo diggity]

I'm not outright against this but I'm not sure "let the streakcat be the streakcat still with addition of BAP" is what they wanted.

I do like, however, making BAP, TAG, and NARC more effective counters to ECM, though not as effective as ECCM-mode.

I think that ECM should be pulled from the Atlas (smaller mechs only) and that it should take up a weapon hardpoint as well.

Edited by fo diggity, 06 December 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[Codejack]

fo diggity, on 06 December 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

I'm not outright against this but I'm not sure "let the streakcat be the streakcat still with addition of BAP" is what they wanted.

Well, what they wanted to do was weaken the streakcat, but instead, they've basically killed it (unless you run with friends you can count on to have ECM).

The real problem is that this affects LRM-boats, too, as well as other streak-loading builds.

So they want to weaken streakcats; fine, make it take twice as long to lock-on. That will give these clueless whingers twice as much time to figure out that THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO KILL MECHS TWICE THEIR SIZE WITH IMPUNITY!

[Boymonkey]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Well, what they wanted to do was weaken the streakcat, but instead, they've basically killed it (unless you run with friends you can count on to have ECM).

The real problem is that this affects LRM-boats, too, as well as other streak-loading builds.

So they want to weaken streakcats; fine, make it take twice as long to lock-on. That will give these clueless whingers twice as much time to figure out that THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO KILL MECHS TWICE THEIR SIZE WITH IMPUNITY!

No you have not killed the streakcat at all, I took mine out today against ECM and still got 2 kills and 3 assists, you just have to play differently and pick your fights better.
Oh and I only pug.

Edited by Boymonkey, 06 December 2012 - 01:00 PM.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Anything that removes streakcats from the game is fine by me.

[TruePoindexter]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Not only that, but ECM in MWO combines the features of many TT systems (BAP, ECM, NSS), as well as being vastly more powerful overall (sensors could target ECM mechs at close range in TT without any special equipment at all) and having practically no disadvantages.

I'm still staying out of the argument one way or the other for now (talk to me next week) but I do want to point out that there is a specific disadvantage to ECM - the mech itself. With the exception of the Atlas AS7-D-DC all of the other mechs were considered before hand inferior to their alternatives.

The Commando COM-2D could deal with light mechs well with 3x SSRM2 or have a surprising sneak attack punch with SRMs but in all practicality was inferior at both tasks when compared to a Jenner. Thanks to weight class match making a Commando would almost always be matched against a Jenner.

The Raven RVN-3L suffers from just having flat fewer weapons and less mobility than the Jenner. The Jenner's jumpjets and additional energy mount coupled with a symmetrical hardpoint layout make it superior.

The Cicada CDA-3M is powerful and can exceed the common Jenner in firepower/versatility. The issue is that it is not a light mech and so with weight class match making you likely are giving the enemy team a Hunchback/Centurion which could be dangerous for your teammates.

[Kousagi]

I currently like the way ECM is right now. Makes this more a thinking game and less hold mouse 1-2 and wait for streaks to chain fire non-stop. Just because ECM put some team work back in to the game does not make it a bad thing. Right now a good counter to ECM is another ECM or a tag, which works just fine, LRM's are fine with this too. Cause ya know, scouts can really scout now, and even spot for LRM's, unlike before where anything with a BAP and sensor mod could spot targets 1.2k out.

In short the Key to countering ECM, is team work...

[Codejack]

RocketDog, on 06 December 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Anything that removes streakcats from the game is fine by me.

Why, do you prefer streakmandos? They're pretty much the same, except you can actually shoot back at the Catapult.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Why, do you prefer streakmandos? They're pretty much the same, except you can actually shoot back at the Catapult.

Streakcats were taking over the game because they were just too easy. A lazy build for lazy players.

[soapyfrog]

Timelordwho, on 06 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

I think BAP should still give +200 radar range vs ECM protected targets. ECM would still hurt BAP by reducing detection range to 400 from 1000, but there would be a counter availiable when people spam ECM.

That would be reasonable.

[Kraven Kor]

While I am more or less OK with ECM as it stands, so far, I would actually be OK with the ideas posted here.

I think we will see some balancing passes along these lines with ECM. Don't be surprised when it happens, whether it matches the ideas here or some other plan.

[Codejack]

RocketDog, on 06 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Streakcats were taking over the game because they were just too easy. A lazy build for lazy players.

Do you have any idea how upset people who have actually run a streakcat get when you say this? You go try to hold a reticule on a 140kph, jump-jetting Jenner, then come back and tell me that it's easy. It isn't.

Oh, yea, you don't have to aim.... except for the 2.5 seconds it takes to get a lock when you have to be REALLY good at aiming...which you have to do every couple of volleys since you can't turn as fast as they can run.... and if you get shaken while you are trying to get lock, at that range, you pretty much have to start over...

As opposed to those lucky enough to not have the lag problem; let's see here, the crosshair is over the enemy mech, what does that mean again? Oh, if I press the button, I hit? No lock-on, no delay, no AMS, no ECM, concentrated damage (if you are half as good at aiming as a streakboat pilot has to be, anyway...); oooh, you are SOOO much better than the rest of us

[Fate 6]

soapyfrog, on 06 December 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

I'd be ok with narc missiles exposing ecm covered units (even though it runs against the TT rules, it would make narc useful!) but BAP countering ECM would make ECM useless. If anything, ECM is the counter to BAP.

BAP needed a counter?
Giving BAP some functionality against ECM would make it actually useful at all, while allowing some counterplay to ECM for mechs that don't have the correct loadout to mount TAG or have their own ECM.

I think BAP should decrease the ECM radar shroud range from 200m to 400m

[One Medic Army]

Kernfeuer, on 06 December 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

and at this point ur wrong it canot be that an sythem of 1,5T can domminate the battlefield (and it does..just try pug..only the side whit more ecm wins almost)

Funny, streaks weighed 1.5 tons and dominated the battlefield, anyone who complained was told: L2P.

[Applecrow]

ECM is in a good place and could use some tweaks, but making beagle cut through ECM makes ECM worthless and Beagle "required". With your suggestion I'd have to counter that only mechs that could mount ECM could mount Beagle. Otherwise you're just asking for your streakcat back with a 1.5 ton penalty.

Streak pilots now have to think about how to use their weapons. They can still tear apart mechs that wander out of the ECM bubble.

Removing the shake will do a lot to counter the streakcat. I'd prefer if they required regaining a lock every time they shoot...or breaking the lock on the slightest LOS loss. One part of the streaks is they will NOT fire if they won't hit. Making them work like that will go a long way towards balancing them.

Not to mention when they fix the jump jets, A-1's will need more tonnage for JJ to keep their wings.

Right now, ECM helps, but its not like it makes the Streakcat any less dangerous. It just chops away at the no-skill murder machine it was for people who don't know what they are doing. Well played streak cats can sit outside the ECM bubble, out run half of the ECM mechs, and tear apart anything that gets out from the bubble.

Edited by Applecrow, 06 December 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

My opinion is that ECM needs a fix, but I disagree with the nature of fix you are proposing.