154 replies to this topic

[Sevaradan]

Livewyr, on 06 December 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

use teamwork to defeat ECM...

yeah, that argument worked so well for LRMs...at least LRMs required skill...not just some passive shield you can activate and forget.

(I use LRM's in the past tense...for obvious reasons)

teamwork worked great to neutralize LRMs at least in my experience.

[Tehtos]

Timelordwho, on 06 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

I think BAP should still give +200 radar range vs ECM protected targets. ECM would still hurt BAP by reducing detection range to 400 from 1000, but there would be a counter availiable when people spam ECM.

I like this idea, too, as long as communication is still jammed when within 180m of an enemy ECM in disrupt mode. May have to play around with distance (250m is 25% of 1000m), but overall I like the creative use of BAP.

[cmopatrick]

i voted some: BAP needs to be closer to canon (no improvement in lock, but detect ECM fields at their entire range. maybe a pink/light red circular field on the battle map and cockpit map (note, it should see any of the field that is within range even if the ECM mech itself is outside).

TAG should operate in and out of the bubble (near as canon reads, though TAG in canon is also actually just for the Arrow systems. the new 750 range seems to be too great (Ok, as a deep scout, even on rather small maps like Caustic, it gives me a fantastic chance to use the TAG like a sniper weapon, but i'm not sure that is what you want to hear, so i am suggesting nerfing myself...). i think 600m with maybe an expensive gxp pilot skill/module that gives 700m would be better.

NARC is not supposed to work within ECM and i see no reason why to change it.

[Codejack]

soapyfrog, on 06 December 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Would it be qualitatively better than a jenner or non-ecm raven/cicada?

Absolutely.

[soapyfrog]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

Absolutely.

Madness. You take an ECM Commando with ANY loadout you choose save for streaks, and I will take a jenner and eat your lunch every single time.

[Codejack]

Kousagi, on 06 December 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

I'll tell you a story of a brave 3 x SSRM commando with a ECM. He was mashing his Fire button one day, when along came a raven with ECM. Mr Brave commando was no longer able to Mash his button. For some odd reason it stopped working. Mr. Raven giggled to himself at Mr. Commandos dismay as Mr. Raven tore him a new ******** with lasers.

Now Mr. Commando could have switched to counter mode to return fire if he was smart enough. Though if he did this would also allow Mr. Raven to bring his 2 x SSRM's to bear as well.

So, you killed someone who didn't know what they were doing? Good for you, I guess.

[Rex Budman]

Sevaradan, on 06 December 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Does not need a fix.

Typical response from someone ejoying unreasonable missle immunity...

[Codejack]

soapyfrog, on 06 December 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Madness. You take an ECM Commando with ANY loadout you choose save for streaks, and I will take a jenner and eat your lunch every single time.

I have killed a dozen Jenners today in my 2D. Maybe you are better than the 12ish other people I've fought, but they just can't deal enough damage before I kill them.

At the same time, I'm sure that you kill Commandos; the stock builds aren't very fast and aren't armored up very well, most players I run into don't torso-twist to spread damage out, etc.

There is a large skill spectrum with a fine gradation, many differences according to network latency and computer power, and a hefty dose of luck involved in this game right now, and as they say in the pros, "On any given Sunday...."

[Sevaradan]

I wasn't dieing to missiles before, maybe if you improved your skill w direct fire weapons loosing your precious streaks wouldn't be such a big deal.

[soapyfrog]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

I have killed a dozen Jenners today in my 2D. Maybe you are better than the 12ish other people I've fought, but they just can't deal enough damage before I kill them.

Because you are using streaks.

Jenner is better in every way if streaks are not involved. Every single possible metric.

[Codejack]

Sevaradan, on 06 December 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

I wasn't dieing to missiles before, maybe if you improved your skill w direct fire weapons loosing your precious streaks wouldn't be such a big deal.

You do realize that you have said this at least 10 times, now, right? That's at least 5 more than is reasonable before you should start assuming that it is an insult.

[REDACTED]

Edited by miSs, 07 December 2012 - 01:17 PM.
Nationality based insult

[Taizan]

Some:
- BAP is an active probe, not passive and thus should have some capability in partially penetrating through ECM. Instead of changing BAP, ECM could not completely disable it but just reduce its range bonus by 15% and not allow detailed unit information or indirect fire. This would imo reflect that the information gathered through the active probe is disrupted by ECM and not shareable through the common C3 network.

- NARC needs a full overhaul anyway, however we already have TAG with an increased distance for lighting up ECM-ed units. The only way I'd see adding NARC would need to be influenced heavily by ECM. I.e Allow direct targeting only and no detailed target information.

ECM still has to be powerful on the battlefield because well it is powerful. It should not completely negate all other modules, but also not allow any 100% counter to ECM except another ECM set to .... counter.

Edited by Taizan, 06 December 2012 - 06:48 PM.

[Codejack]

soapyfrog, on 06 December 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

Because you are using streaks.

Jenner is better in every way if streaks are not involved. Every single possible metric.

But...but...but...we aren't comparing what they would be like if they were different! I am not playing this game according to how other people think it should be played!

For that matter, how about this metric: If we both have allies with LRMs. How often do you fight 1 on 1?

What if they add the 7B Commando; 3 energy and 2 missile hardpoints, plus jump jets?

For my money, when the netcode gets fixed, streaks won't be such a big deal, and this conversation won't matter, but for the record, I ran a Jenner for a while, and I liked it. The Commando is better right now because of streaks and ECM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

I voted No because your changes won't do anything to help. The detection range reduction shouldn't be 200 by default and the BAP should allow targeting from farther away when used, not just inside the jamming zone. I posted a nice wall in a now buried thread explaining how to fix the issues. I wonder if anyone even read it.

[soapyfrog]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

But...but...but...we aren't comparing what they would be like if they were different! I am not playing this game according to how other people think it should be played!

You are complaining about ECM but the problem is actually streaks. I guess you havent really been following my questions very well.

[Codejack]

Bluten, on 06 December 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

I voted No because your changes won't do anything to help. The detection range reduction shouldn't be 200 by default and the BAP should allow targeting from farther away when used, not just inside the jamming zone. I posted a nice wall in a now buried thread explaining how to fix the issues. I wonder if anyone even read it.

I did, there was just too much to respond to, and at this point, there are too many ideas flying around.

I predict a slight increase to detection range (300m? Or is that being optimistic?), and that's about it.

[River Walker]

Does not need a fix

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

As I said, the 200 meter range needs to go up because with it being so low, LRMs can't even lock on from farther away than Streaks. This is a very clear and obvious failure in game design and weapon balance. I can't imagine what they were thinking. LRMs being unable to lock farther away than Streaks means they are entirely pointless to even carry now. You have to be at 200 meters for a lock, and Streaks are 270 by default, this means you may as well just carry Streaks. They should have set this range to 300-400 by default. Worse yet is that if you are 180 or closer, your radar is jammed entirely, meaning you can't even use the Streaks. So you need to be <=200, but not <180, they only give you a whole 20 meter window to get a lock. LRMs also have a minimum of 180, so jammed or not, you still wouldn't be able to use them. You need more than 20 meters to work with(Streaks are suppose to work up to 270), and LRMs should lock from farther away than Streaks regardless.

The BAP should have also extended it somewhat farther for the guy carrying it. The entire point of this device is to improve sensors and/or counter an ECM, yet in this now messed up game, it does nothing to help. It leads me to believe that they didn't play other titles such as MW 4 Mercs. There the BAP increased radar range, the ECM shortened it. Together they just canceled each other out. Not complicated. They also did the samething with missile lock timers. They could do that here and it wouldn't render the ECM useless because 1 ECM affects everyone while the BAP is only going to affect the 1 guy that slots it.(And most would probably neglect it unless they stacked LRMs. It should fix LRMs. Instead it does nothing)

[Codejack]

soapyfrog, on 06 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

You are complaining about ECM but the problem is actually streaks. I guess you havent really been following my questions very well.

No, the problem is netcode and ECM; dude, come off it, ECM is game-breakingly powerful. I am using it, and it's sick.

I just played a game as the only light mech on my side, with all mediums and heavies, and the enemy light didn't have ECM. Total PUG, I told them to follow me, we went up the ravine in forest colony and chewed them up one-by-one, 4 or 5 mechs all blasting one guy who comes around the corner into a wall of metal and fire, then chased down the stragglers. Then I had a duel with a Jenner on the water; it was pretty even, we had both lost an arm, until our friends showed up, then no more Jenner.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

River Walker, on 06 December 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

Does not need a fix

Uh, ya it does? Compared to all the other equipment in this game, it is extremely overpowered. It renders other things entirely pointless to even use and has no effective counter measures. Let me list it out for you. The BAP now does nothing. The Artemis now does nothing. The sensor module now does nothing. The NARC now does nothing. LRMs are pointless. Streaks now do nothing either except in a pathetically small 20 meter wide window.