219 replies to this topic

[Krej]

Hi, any clarity please on whether or not CASEing ammo in LT/RT is useful if I have an XL engine?
Thanks for this awesome post!

[Selfish]

Krej, on 15 January 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

Hi, any clarity please on whether or not CASEing ammo in LT/RT is useful if I have an XL engine?
Thanks for this awesome post!

Hey! I can answer this one. The way CASE works is that it stops leftover explosive damage that destroys the component it is stored in from transferring to the next component. A mouthful. For example, if someone deals 40 internal explosion damage to your left torso, which has 30 HP, the 10 remaining damage won't be transferred to your Center torso. This means that for CASE to work you need to lose your side torso. This is instant death for users with an XL. Since you can't use CASE without losing a side torso, and you can't use an XL and stay alive after losing a side torso. They're bad dancing partners.

tldr; C.A.S.E. and XL Engines should never appear together in the current state of the game.

The good news is that the devs are looking into ways to increase the viability of CASE for all builds. The bad news is that this will take some time. So patience is a virtue.

Edited by Selfish, 15 January 2013 - 02:28 AM.

[Kmieciu]

I have a question:
If we store ammo in the arm, will it blow up automatically when we loose that limb? Or is the hit that destroys the limb counted as a normal hit and has 42% chance to crit?

Because it seems that the arms of a Catapult a good place to store a ton or two of ammo. It only has only 20 internal HP so it can be destroyed with two PPC shots. If you store launchers and heat sinks and only one or two ton of ammo, it seems that the chance to crit the ammo is quite low.

In comparison the side torso has 30 HP so the chance of critical hit before it`s destroyed is 50% higher. And if you put only ammo there, you can be sure it gets critted, and the explosion will damage center torso, and you will loose your arm as well...

Edited by Kmieciu, 18 January 2013 - 08:28 AM.

[Selfish]

Kmieciu, on 18 January 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

I have a question:
If we store ammo in the arm, will it blow up automatically when we loose that limb? Or is the hit that destroys the limb counted as a normal hit and has 42% chance to crit?

Because it seems that the arms of a Catapult a good place to store a ton or two of ammo. It only has only 20 internal HP so it can be destroyed with two PPC shots. If you store launchers and heat sinks and only one or two ton of ammo, it seems that the chance to crit the ammo is quite low.

In comparison the side torso has 30 HP so the chance of critical hit before it`s destroyed is 50% higher. And if you put only ammo there, you can be sure it gets critted, and the explosion will damage center torso, and you will loose your arm as well...

No, ammo should not blow up if the component is destroyed. I'm under the impression that it only explodes when it's critically destroyed. So the arms are an okay place to store it if you want to take that risk. Depending on how missile bay door damage resistance works it may be an even better choice on the catapult. It's a 10% resistance when the flaps are closed, but it isn't clear whether that's just a flat increase of 10% armor that disappears when it's used, or if it mitigates damage by 10%. Of course, if you're packing SRMs the bay doors will just get in the way of timing shots.

I'm not sure what happens to the final hit that destroys the component. Say, if you destroyed a component with a 10 hp shot, but the component had 1 internal hp left, do you get a crit roll? Would it roll for the weapon's base damage (my guess) or only for the remaining hp left (1)? This could explain some kills I've had where people immediately suffer massive component damage transfer right before they die. So if you ammo crit someone in their last remaining leg, and it destroys their leg, arm, side torso, and center torso immediately. It could be that the crit happens before the component takes its damage, but the ammo cook is immediately applied because the opponent is dead. I really have no clue, and it's quite tough to test in the field.

Edited by Selfish, 18 January 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Excellent guide.

I believe crit-buffing may have also been referred to as crit-padding by other Battletech fans. Excellent Guide.

I wonder if someone shouldn't write a "crit calculator"... Something that tells you how likely it is to lose a component, and how likely a weapon is to destroy the component, or how long it would take on average to do so...

[Roll Beefgristle]

Either crits are bugged or this is not correct. I had a match today where my fully armored, never-been-hit Cataphract-4x had a massive ammo cookoff in the RT from the vey first hit.

[Aleric]

Roll Beefgristle, on 19 January 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Either crits are bugged or this is not correct. I had a match today where my fully armored, never-been-hit Cataphract-4x had a massive ammo cookoff in the RT from the vey first hit.

I have been single shot killed multiple times at long range with no other damage to my Mech. The first time it happened I thought multiple people had head shot me and figured it was bad luck. It has now happened to me three times and each time my mech has never even been fired upon and all I did was expose myself to take a shot and was dead before my weapon could even fire. Is this something that is common?

[MustrumRidcully]

Aleric, on 19 January 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

I have been single shot killed multiple times at long range with no other damage to my Mech. The first time it happened I thought multiple people had head shot me and figured it was bad luck. It has now happened to me three times and each time my mech has never even been fired upon and all I did was expose myself to take a shot and was dead before my weapon could even fire. Is this something that is common?

WHatever it is, it really doesn't sound like a crit. Crits in general don't kill you, and that each of these 3 instances hit a Gauss Rifle or ammo seems unlikely.

I find it more likely that it was a head or back shot and the paper doll was too slow. Heck, I'd find a hack or aimbot more likely.
Crits on their own do no damage, they just take out items in your mech.

[Aleric]

Happened again today, twice, each time by mechs that were at extreme range. Once i was hit in the shoulder by a rocket and then my mech toppled over like a rag doll with no other damage to it. Second time I walked around a rock outcropping as soon as I gained a radar contact I was hit and over I went. Is this as intended, what can do a one shot kill? Or does the Caraphract have a hole in its armor I am unaware of since I have max armor with upgraded Ferro Fiberus and Endo Steel Internal Structure.

[Selfish]

Aleric, on 20 January 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

Happened again today, twice, each time by mechs that were at extreme range. Once i was hit in the shoulder by a rocket and then my mech toppled over like a rag doll with no other damage to it. Second time I walked around a rock outcropping as soon as I gained a radar contact I was hit and over I went. Is this as intended, what can do a one shot kill? Or does the Caraphract have a hole in its armor I am unaware of since I have max armor with upgraded Ferro Fiberus and Endo Steel Internal Structure.

This doesn't sound like a crit issue at all. Are you carrying ammo in your side torso? Are you running with an XL? How much armor do you have in the components being struck?

[Jooky SeaCpt]

I recently had a "Whaaaat? How did I just die?" moment. Turns out I was playing a really old mech loadout that I hadn't touched in months. When I went in to look at it I had ammo stuffed in all kinds of stupid places. Yes, kids, having a ton of AC/20 ammo cook off due to heat in your center torso WILL instantly kill you.

[ElLocoMarko]

Jooky SeaCpt, on 10 December 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

...
It is also a prime target for anyone who bothers to look at their target loadout info because it does so much damage that you really do have to take it out ASAP
...

Did they remove the target loadout or are you using a module? I've never seen it.

[ElLocoMarko]

Something struck me as odd when reading the guide. It used to be (in tabletop) that crits to an empty location just went away... so I wouldn't have to buffer because empty space was a great way to not get crits. You would roll and if you hit empty, you didn't keep rolling till you hit something. And it is logical because bullets pass through empty space all the time.

The MWO system seems to have a 42% chance of crit for someone with a lone single-slot item in their side torso versus a 42% chance of critting a lone 10 slot item. You see where I'm going with this? if there is only one item in a torso there is a 42% chance of crit and then no choice on which one. If empty/ferro/endo could be hit then it would be more real world instead of the magic bullet effect we have now where it seeks out the one tiny thing in the torso.

Edited by ElLocoMarko, 23 January 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[Selfish]

ElLocoMarko, on 23 January 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Did they remove the target loadout or are you using a module? I've never seen it.

It's not a module. If you hit R and maintain your target long enough the mech loadout in the upper right will display a list of weapons the mech has equipped--as well as the status of their armor and internals.

ElLocoMarko, on 23 January 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Something struck me as odd when reading the guide. It used to be (in tabletop) that crits to an empty location just went away... so I wouldn't have to buffer because empty space was a great way to not get crits. You would roll and if you hit empty, you didn't keep rolling till you hit something. And it is logical because bullets pass through empty space all the time.

The MWO system seems to have a 42% chance of crit for someone with a lone single-slot item in their side torso versus a 42% chance of critting a lone 10 slot item. You see where I'm going with this? if there is only one item in a torso there is a 42% chance of crit and then no choice on which one. If empty/ferro/endo could be hit then it would be more real world instead of the magic bullet effect we have now where it seeks out the one tiny thing in the torso.

This is largely due to an additional layer to the crit system that was introduced in MWO: Item HP. In the TT if you critically hit an item it was destroyed. In MWO you can hit an item and not destroy it. This shifts the strength of weapons from TT (fastest firing/most roll weapons were the best) to the fastest firing weapons with the requisite damage to destroy the item in MWO. The system isn't complete. They are still deciding on whether or not to add internal items (like gyros/actuators), and the only weapon that has received a look at item HP has been the Gauss (reduced to 3 HP). Item HP serves to create thresholds of weapon type, which when compared against the internal HP give windows of probability that the items will be destroyed before the component.

The critical slot system still acts as a cap to how much an item can be protected. The AC/20, for example, can never have less than an 83.3% (10/12) chance of being critically struck. It's just up to the player to intentionally fill that slot to alter the percentages.

[Regina Redshift]

RE: Crits and Endo/Ferro
I remember from TableTop that Endo and Ferro count as empty crits for the sake of rolling crits. This is probably how they are implemented in MW:O as well.

Question:
Is CASE subject to being destroyed like other equipment?

[MustrumRidcully]

Archwright, on 24 January 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Question:
Is CASE subject to being destroyed like other equipment?

Only weapons and ammo have "rules" for being destroyed. What I don't know if CASE can be critted at all. But I would guess it can be, and losing all hp just doesn't have any effect (just like losing engine hit points doesn'T make a difference, only losing the section containing the engine does.)

[Jooky SeaCpt]

I think I can answer that question. Here is a copy of a message I sent to Selfish (author of this guide) a few weeks ago concerning CASE crits.

"So I was paging through my Battletech Compendium book and I found the entry on CASE. It states that, "Critical hits on locations occupied by CASE have no effect and should be rerolled." (Battletech Compendium, p.115).

Also of note is the entry on Gauss Rifle ammo which reads, "If a location containing Gauss ammunition takes a critical hit, the ammo does not explode, but the hit destroys the ammo-feed mechanism rendering the rest of the ammunition in that location useless."(Battletech Compendium, p.116). You may want to specifically note in your crit guide that even though the ammunition does not explode, it is still rendered useless."

Of course the question is, as always, how closely have PGI stuck to the tabletop rules. We've already seen other examples where things have been changed, so just because the TT rules say it, it doesn't make it so.

Edited by Jooky SeaCpt, 25 January 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Selfish]

Archwright, on 24 January 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

RE: Crits and Endo/Ferro
I remember from TableTop that Endo and Ferro count as empty crits for the sake of rolling crits. This is probably how they are implemented in MW:O as well.

Floating points (like Endo and Ferro) do not count as empty critical slots. They don't factor into the critical hit process at all, and can't be targeted/destroyed. It's different from the TT in this regard.

[Aleric]

I have all slots filled, and yes I have AC/10 ammo on the opposite side of the AC/10 on my Cataphract with a CASE and full armor, Ferrous fiber and Endo.

[Selfish]

Aleric, on 25 January 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

I have all slots filled, and yes I have AC/10 ammo on the opposite side of the AC/10 on my Cataphract with a CASE and full armor, Ferrous fiber and Endo.

Are you using an XL engine?