219 replies to this topic

[Selfish]

stjobe, on 09 August 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Another thing is that we (or at least I) don't quite know exactly how the crit system works. I'm thinking of crits on a component-empty armour-stripped location - does that still do extra damage to the IS, or does it not since the extra IS damage is based on crit damage and there's nothing to apply that crit damage to?

And indestructible components like actuators, gyro, and engine; do they make a difference? If crits only apply damage to IS if there's something to apply crit damage to, do these components give "infinite" amounts of crit damage applied to IS (or at least until the IS is gone) since they cannot be destroyed?

Questions, questions

I've already looked into the first, and we know about the equipment from back in R&R--though the devs may have stealth changed it at some point. Either way, equipment like actuators/hands/gyros had not been implemented. The engine, however, is a very real item that takes up space and can be destroyed. It has 15 HP and is always treated as one item, even if it spans multiple components via XL. Nothing happens on its destruction, so it's just free buffer. If the 'invisible' components somehow do count then it's notable that they're present in every component of every mech in the game. The effect then is the same as if the system just used .15 transfer from all critical damage. That makes it impossible to actually test if they're present/a problem, and would be a good question for devs to just straight up answer.

It does appear that the critical damage transfer is applying to components that don't even have items stored within them. It's simple to test in-game/training grounds since the change between potential damage can be measured via stopwatch/naked eye count. For my test I recorded the destruction of an AWS-8Q in the item absent left arm, then item filled CT and timed when it broke through to IS. You can jump on TG->Frozen City and the 8Q will be right next to spawn. It's loadout is here.

The arm had 26 HP and no items. It should have taken a 4 DPS setup ~6.5 seconds to destroy it. It was destroyed in ~2 seconds.

The CT has 51 HP. It should have taken ~12 seconds to destroy the component. It contained three items. An Engine (15 HP) and two Single Heatsinks (20 HP). The CT was destroyed in ~4 seconds.

[Deathlike]

Selfish, on 09 August 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

It does appear that the critical damage transfer is applying to components that don't even have items stored within them. It's simple to test in-game/training grounds since the change between potential damage can be measured via stopwatch/naked eye count. For my test I recorded the destruction of an AWS-8Q in the item absent left arm, then item filled CT and timed when it broke through to IS. You can jump on TG->Frozen City and the 8Q will be right next to spawn. It's loadout is here.

That's what I thought. Spider-5K... ninja mech finisher.

[stjobe]

Selfish, on 09 August 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

I've already looked into the first
[...]
The arm had 26 HP and no items. It should have taken a 4 DPS setup ~6.5 seconds to destroy it. It was destroyed in ~2 seconds.

The CT has 51 HP. It should have taken ~12 seconds to destroy the component. It contained three items. An Engine (15 HP) and two Single Heatsinks (20 HP). The CT was destroyed in ~4 seconds.

Thank you, that seems to answer my questions pretty conclusively; the IS damage is applied even if there are no components to crit, which means the second question is irrelevant.

It also means that MGs are indeed quite powerful finishers these days. As a light pilot and long-time (read: since closed beta) proponent of a useful MG, I am overjoyed

[Jman5]

This change has got me thinking: Is buffering more harmful than helpful in some situations?

Edit: Wait a second, are you telling me that crit damage modifiers are applied to the internal structure regardless of whether there are any critable items there?

Edited by Jman5, 10 August 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[stjobe]

Jman5, on 10 August 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

This change has got me thinking: Is buffering more harmful than helpful in some situations?

It makes no difference to the IS damage, and it will still buffer your components.

[Deathlike]

Spider-5K said:

All your internals are belong to us.

[arghmace]

Selfish, on 07 December 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

LB 10-X
1x Crit = 39%
2x Crit = 24%
3x Crit = 7%
Total Crit Chance = 69%

MG
1x Crit = 36%
2x Crit = 22%
3x Crit = 5%
Total Crit Chance = 63%

This must be a bit wrong, no? Base values for all weapons are 25, 14, 3. LBX and Flamer get 14, 8, 3 bonus so they total 39, 22, 6. MG gets 11, 6, 2 bonus so it totals 36, 20, 5. Combined chance of at least one crit would be 67% and 61%.

[arghmace]

Played a bit with excel. Seems to me that a regular weapon does 9.3% more to inner structure. Flamer does 16.7% more, LBX 30.3% more and MG a whopping 170.6% more. So MG's dps against inner structure is 2.71. Of course all these are avg numbers and depend on how lucky you are with crit rolls.

Anyway, very interesting to know that this 15% of crit dmg is done to IS even when section has nothing to crit. Thank you, Selfish, for finding that out.

[Selfish]

arghmace, on 12 August 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

This must be a bit wrong, no? Base values for all weapons are 25, 14, 3. LBX and Flamer get 14, 8, 3 bonus so they total 39, 22, 6. MG gets 11, 6, 2 bonus so it totals 36, 20, 5. Combined chance of at least one crit would be 67% and 61%.

Very true. For some reason I messed up the 2x crit values, which were also borked in my numbers chart. Thanks a ton for the catch!

[Kmieciu]

So the machineguns got hit with the nerf bat:

- Reducing the crit probability of Machine Guns. (0.11, 0.06, 0.02 > 0.06, 0.03, 0.01)
- Crit damage multiplier on Machine Guns reduced from 12.5 to 9.0
So not only the damage to the IS was reduced, but also the damage to the items.

On the flip side, LBX10 spread reduction makes it almost as good as an AC20 close range (<150m), especially against large mechs and unarmored sections. And it is two times cooler than an AC20. Plus, you get no heat penalty for group fire :-)

PS. AC20 will always be the premier choice for legging lights and headshots.

Edited by Kmieciu, 22 August 2013 - 01:42 AM.

[stjobe]

The new MG values:

no crit: 48% chance, 0.1 damage to IS (0.48/s), 0 damage to IC
single crit: 31% chance, 0.235 damage to IS (0.7285/s), 0.9 damage to IC
double crit: 17% chance, 0.47 damage to IS (0.799/s), 1.8 damage to IC
triple crit: 4% chance, 0.705 damage to IS (0.282/s), 2.7 damage to IC

Summing up:
1 DPS vs armour
2.2898 DPS vs internal structure
6.93 DPS vs internal components

[Selfish]

stjobe, on 22 August 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

The new MG values:

no crit: 48% chance, 0.1 damage to IS (0.48/s), 0 damage to IC
single crit: 31% chance, 0.235 damage to IS (0.7285/s), 0.9 damage to IC
double crit: 17% chance, 0.47 damage to IS (0.799/s), 1.8 damage to IC
triple crit: 4% chance, 0.705 damage to IS (0.282/s), 2.7 damage to IC

Summing up:
1 DPS vs armour
2.2898 DPS vs internal structure
6.93 DPS vs internal components

That's most of what I have, although we differ on DPS vs IS. I'm getting 2.0395, which is just the average critical DPS vs. IS by 15%. Are you using a different calculation for it?

[stjobe]

Selfish, on 22 August 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

That's most of what I have, although we differ on DPS vs IS. I'm getting 2.0395, which is just the average critical DPS vs. IS by 15%. Are you using a different calculation for it?

I do them individually, then sum them (for 100 rounds, or 10 seconds):

48 no-crits for 0.1 damage to IS = 4.8 damage
31 single crits for 0.1+(0.9*0.15) = 7.285 damage
17 double crits for 0.2+(1.8*0.15) = 7.99 damage
4 triple crits for 0.3+(2.7*0.15) = 2.82 damage
total for 100 rounds = 4.8 + 7.285 + 7.99 + 2.82 = 22.895
total for 10 rounds = 2.2895

Edit: well, actually I don't do it, this does it:

Edited by stjobe, 22 August 2013 - 10:33 AM.

[Selfish]

stjobe, on 22 August 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

I do them individually, then sum them (for 100 rounds, or 10 seconds):

48 no-crits for 0.1 damage to IS = 4.8 damage
31 single crits for 0.1+(0.9*0.15) = 7.285 damage
17 double crits for 0.2+(1.8*0.15) = 7.99 damage
4 triple crits for 0.3+(2.7*0.15) = 2.82 damage
total for 100 rounds = 4.8 + 7.285 + 7.99 + 2.82 = 22.895
total for 10 rounds = 2.2895

Edit: well, actually I don't do it, this does it:

Not sure if I'm clear on your base IS damage. Is it supposed to be the base damage the MG bullet is dealing? If so it would be 0.1 for each crit type as a 2x or 3x crit is still only caused by a single projectile.

[stjobe]

Selfish, on 22 August 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

Not sure if I'm clear on your base IS damage. Is it supposed to be the base damage the MG bullet is dealing? If so it would be 0.1 for each crit type as a 2x or 3x crit is still only caused by a single projectile.

Ah. That's true of course, if the base IS damage isn't per crit it does. I honestly don't know, but let's go with 0.1 base damage + crit damage.

In that case, I concur on 2.0395 DPS vs IS.

[Goose]

If I'm reading this right, a crit does 5 damage to the item, unless the weapon is special, somehow? And these five points are "new,' not coming out of the weapons damage?s

[stjobe]

Goose, on 25 August 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

If I'm reading this right, a crit does 5 damage to the item, unless the weapon is special, somehow? And these five points are "new,' not coming out of the weapons damage?s

A crit does the regular weapon damage (times any crit damage bonus, e.g. 9 for the current MG) to one, two, or three internal components. It also does regular weapon damage plus 15% of crit damage to internal structure.

Example: An AC/20 hit that crits does 23 to 29 damage to Internal Structure (20 + 3 to 20 + 9 for 1, 2, or 3 crits), plus 20 damage to one, two, or three components (randomly determined, and can be three hits on the same component).

An MG hit that crits does 0.1 to 0.505 (0.1 + 0.405 for three times 0.9 damage crits) damage to internal structure, plus 0.9 damage to one, two, or three components.

[Selfish]

Goose, on 25 August 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

If I'm reading this right, a crit does 5 damage to the item, unless the weapon is special, somehow? And these five points are "new,' not coming out of the weapons damage?s

The amount of damage a crit deals is the base damage of the weapon that caused it (or, more specifically, the damage that was dealt by the weapon). To deal 5 damage to an item, you'd be using an AC/5 or UAC/5 within its optimal range. To deal 10, you'd use a PPC or AC/10. etc.

This damage doesn't detract or diminish the original shot's damage in any way. Let's say you get a 1x crit with an AC/20 on a component. You will deal 20 damage to an item in that component (if there is one), and then deal an additional 3 real damage (15% x 20). Overall, you deal 20 critical damage to an item, and 23 real damage to the component.

Feel free to give the guide a re-read. I just massively updated it, and it should explain this in better detail. I figured it was time to drop the developer quotes/etc. I have them archived and might add them to the bottom, but the guide is pretty long as it is.

[Goose]

Thanks for the update.

Crit damage is on a different number line then damage-damage, but getting a grit gives a damage-damage boost (i.e. to the side torso internal structure).

[Goose]

Selfish, on 26 August 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Overall, you deal 20 critical damage to an item, and 23 real damage to the component.

Heh: Teh Powers That Be over in Table-Top had a bad time for years standardizing what they ment by the phrase "location," as they often called a crit slot that, in addition to - er, the place(s) slots were kept. Add on how an item (component?) could take up more then one slot …