117 replies to this topic

[batesman]

First off, everyone has their opinion on the new ECM and that's fine. Second you must admit that the game was previously unbalanced in favor of LRM boats streak builds. So my question to you, without going into WHY you love / hate the ECM, is this:

How should we fix the disparity between LRM / streaks and the current ECM system?

Here are some ideas that I had on the issue..

• Rather than a cloaking function, the unit could instead provide a sporadic false target(s) on the radar in the general proximity of the user (maybe one to two grid tile over).
  
• The ECM could also provide the ability to stop missile locks in an area, but as an activated action with a timer. Maybe it could stop locks for 120 seconds or so.
  
• BAP should somehow offset the ECM's effectiveness. - perhaps by allowing the BAP enabled user to see, but not target the ECM enabled team?
  
• Shorten the coverage area of ECM so that an entire group cannot fit under it.

Rather than complain about the balance of the game and how ECM ruined the play style, let's offer up some creative solutions.


Finally, please just keep the post to how you would appropriately balance out the ECM implementation in order to stop LRM / streak abuse.

Edited by batesman, 05 December 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[Diss]

Get collisions back in game ASAP, would help balance the ECM lights/cicada.

Also shrinking the bubble, to easy for entire teams to follow a single mech.

[Codejack]

Some combination of the following:

1) Increase detection range for ECM-covered mechs to 300-500m
2) Allow BAP to lock-on to ECM-covered mechs while inside the ECM bubble
3) Allow NARC to grant detection and lock-on for mechs outside the ECM bubble (and increase it's duration, etc)
4) Allow TAG to allow lock-on at any range for a short duration (5s?) after hitting the target

Basically, let us see them far enough away to do some good, let streak-boats (with BAP) lock-on (only have it take longer), let LRM-boats lock-on if a friend hits them with a NARC, and let anyone lock-on for a few seconds if they've been TAGed.

[100 Tonne]

ECM should half the lock on range and increase missle lock on time by 25% or maybe 50% that way BAP would still be useful as it has a longer range and decreases lock on time.

[p00k]

how would i fix it? easy

1) remove missile lock immunity. instead, give an extremely heavy lockon time penalty. like, rather than the +25% right now, make it a +100% time to lock, and halve the time you can maintain the lock once you (or your spotter) break LOS.

makes it much harder to gain and keep lock when you're dueling lights without totally invalidating lrm's and ssrms's (though i've said it plenty of times, lrm's are only good for killing newbs)

2) remove the stacking scheme, so it doesn't become an arms race on which team has more. leave the radar shielding radius as is, so there's still reason to take ~2 mechs with it to keep your entire team covered, but little reason to take 6+ mechs with it

3) reduce the radius for counter mode to, say, 90m, but counter negates ecm no matter how many ecm's are "stacked". by the time you're that close everyone likely has direct LOS anyways (unless you snuck up behind them, but even then without ecm you still wouldn't show up on their radar since we don't have 360' radar), and teams with voip will have relayed the situation anyways

[Obadiah333]

allow every mech that wants to mount ECM be able to mount it.

[zenstrata]

I am not trying to be a jerk about this, but perhaps try using your eyes? This advanced detection method is used by successful pilots all over the inner sphere to identify and target enemies with an amazingly high success rate =)

If you see a mech that does not have a blue arrow over its head, shoot it! That's what I do =)

[Nauht]

It's so simple all you need to do is shoot off the ears.... er light mech now.

That's what he streakcat have been telling us for months.

[p00k]

Obadiah333, on 05 December 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

allow every mech that wants to mount ECM be able to mount it.

then every mech will mount ecm, because the current stacking scheme gives the team that has more ecm's a huge advantage. every light will run ecm out of fear of streakcats, every streakcat will run ecm out of fear of ecm, every other mech will run ecm out of fear of lagshielded ecm'd lights. it basically becomes a necessity

[zenstrata]

Seriously, do you really need a giant red square around an enemy to effectively engage it?

[Obadiah333]

p00k, on 05 December 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

then every mech will mount ecm, because the current stacking scheme gives the team that has more ecm's a huge advantage. every light will run ecm out of fear of streakcats, every streakcat will run ecm out of fear of ecm, every other mech will run ecm out of fear of lagshielded ecm'd lights. it basically becomes a necessity

I didn't say it was a good solution. But it is a solution. At least no one can claim it's OP then if they can have it too. If they decide not to mount it and use the 1.5 tons for something else, they have no one to blame but themselves.

[Rhent]

batesman, on 05 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

First off, everyone has their opinion on the new ECM and that's fine. Second you must admit that the game was previously unbalanced in favor of LRM boats streak builds. So my question to you, without going into WHY you love / hate the ECM, is this:

How should we fix the disparity between LRM / streaks and the current ECM system?

Here are some ideas that I had on the issue..

• Rather than a cloaking function, the unit could instead provide a sporadic false target(s) on the radar in the general proximity of the user (maybe one to two grid tile over).
  
• The ECM could also provide the ability to stop missile locks in an area, but as an activated action with a timer. Maybe it could stop locks for 120 seconds or so.
  
• BAP should somehow offset the ECM's effectiveness. - perhaps by allowing the BAP enabled user to see, but not target the ECM enabled team?
  
• Shorten the coverage area of ECM so that an entire group cannot fit under it.

Rather than complain about the balance of the game and how ECM ruined the play style, let's offer up some creative solutions.



Finally, please just keep the post to how you would appropriately balance out the ECM implementation in order to stop LRM / streak abuse.

ECM effectively cuts LRM and SSRM damage by 50%. Each AMS cuts LRM and SSRM damage by 10%. Max cut is 80% reduction in damage. So if you are in a cluster of 8 mechs w/ AMS active then you get 80% LRM and SSRM damage reduction. You are in an ECM bubble + 4 mechs with AMS you get the max 80% damage reduction.

You can still do damage with locks, and you are no longer effectively removed from the game. It also gives everyone a high incentive to kill the ECM wielding mechs.

[Talon Thorn]

Obadiah333, on 05 December 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

I didn't say it was a good solution. But it is a solution. At least no one can claim it's OP then if they can have it too. If they decide not to mount it and use the 1.5 tons for something else, they have no one to blame but themselves.

By that rationale, No one can claim they are OP right now, nothing is stopping them from buying one of the ECM capable chassis and running it instead of there usual 'Mech.... I think removing the stacking mechanic so there's no benefit for running more than 2 in an 8 man team (3 in a 12 when we get there) is the best solution I've heard.... I think 1 ECM 'Mech per lance is more than adequate.

[Solis Obscuri]

Solis Obscuri, on 05 December 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Paul Inouye said:

TAG range will be boosted from 450m to 750m.

While I think I see what PGI is trying to do here, I still don't see TAG as an adequate counter to ECM. All I see is TAG becoming still stronger as a tool for use against teams/targets without ECM protection.

On TT (and yes, we all know MWO isn't a strict reproduction of the CBT ruleset) ECM is a T2 counter to a number of T2 fire-control systems that markedly boost the accuracy and cluster-hit bonuses for missile systems (Narc, TAG, Artemis, Streak*) and direct-fire systems (C3/C3i), as well as blunting the bonuses from data-gathering systems used to locate hidden units (BAP). All of these are useful bonuses, particularly when confronting an opposing team that makes extensive use of T2 equipment to augment their offensive capabilities.
* The way Streak missiles function in MWO (and previous MW titles) is also somewhat different than their TT role; on TT Streaks simply do not fire unless they roll a hit, and if the launcher hits, all missiles hit (barring terrain interference from partial cover). This amounts to a significant cluster-hit bonus and conserves both ammunition and heat, but does not actually give a bonus to accuracy.

By contrast, in MWO ECM is still doing all of that, except now also preventing the use of LRMs altogether, and preventing target data sharing except in an extremely narrow 20m band at the edge of ECM range. Compared to TT, this would be like playing double-blind, but only allowing the individual pieces to have "knowledge" of the positions of opposing units they personally have LOS on, but not any revealed to allied units. TAG is intended as a limited counter to this, as is the use of ECM as ECCM.

I find this problematic for a number of reasons;

• First, ECM effectively takes Information Warfare out of being tactically based, and much more into being equipment based; by contrast info-gathering technology (such as BAP) is helpful, but subtle in it's effects, and generally not game-changing to such a degree that it needs a hard counter. As a result, ECM largely removes Information Warfare as a feature of the game, replacing it tout entière with "Electronic Warfare", which amounts to just having more of the units allowed to carry an ECM on your side than the enemy does.
  
• Second, ECM's two counters are itself and another somewhat-expensive T2 component that only one stock unit equips, meaning that players/drops not heavily customized/organized to counter ECM operate under a massive disadvantage for information gathering. No other T2 item by itself gives that degree of advantage to "haves" over "have-nots".
  
• Third, the use of TAG as a counter requires continual aim on the 'mech to be targeted; ECM counters all targeting attempts simply by being present in a 180m radius. Even with T2 gear equipped, there is a substantial disparity in the challenge presented in countering ECM vs. using ECM (unless the counter is just another ECM in ECCM mode).
  
• Fourth, by denying targeting data to enemy units, ECM prevents opponents from receiving loadout and damage data. This further exacerbates the 'lagshield' issue already exploited by fast-moving units, since visually displayed hits/hit locations often differ from the server-authenticated data provided by the targeting data readout. This would be a lesser concern if netcode was in better shape, but lag-shooting and hit-detection remains the single worst gameplay issue for a large percentage of the players.

Overall this is too many advantages to stack, particularly for a 1.5 ton piece of passive equipment with no drawbacks, primarily availble on fast scout chassis.




Looking at the porposed change to TAG, I can see where the devs might want it as a counter for ECM - it would allow attacking units to target 'mechs under the ECM effect at a much longer range, either for direct-fire or with a spotter. However, it doesn't address problems 2, 3, or 4 as listed above. Instead, it creates a TAG unit which is much, much stronger against units not shrouded beneath the "cloaking device", deepening the T1/T2 equipment advantage, as well as the Narc/TAG effectiveness disparity.

As such, I would, instead of buffing TAG further (really, it's plenty good as-is!) and creating a new problem in the course of "fixing" an existing one, make the following changes to how ECM functions:

Disruption Mode:

• ‘Cloaks’ friendlies within 180 meters (reduces detection distance to 25% 75% of normal range).
  
• Disrupts enemies sensors (targeting system), as well as targeting communication (sharing of targeting information) within 180 meters.
  
• Disables enemy NARC
  
• Disables enemy Artemis within sphere of influence, and against friendly target in sphere of influence.
  
• Disables broadcasting of TAG (if friendly is within sphere of influences); However, if you TAG a mech with ECM OUTSIDE of their sphere of influence, it allows you and your friendlies to target
  
• Slow down weapon locks by 25%
  
• Slow down target gathering by 25%
  
• Active Probes do not gain any benefits against ECM equipped or protected enemies. Units equipped with Active Probe will receive a visible notice they are being jammed.

Counter Mode:

• Neutralizes 1 nearby enemy’s ECM in Disruption mode. (no change)

Ghost Target Mode: (new!)

• Can create up to 4 (one every three seconds) false sensor contacts within 180m radius of 'mech location (cannot create or maintain targets outside this range)
  
• Ghost targets do not display any target data
  
• Battlegrid must be active to create Ghost Targets
  
• Active Probe can discern Ghost Targets from real sensor contact unless under effect of ECM jamming
  
• ECM cannot Disrupt or Counter while in Ghost Target Mode.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1554683

[Asmudius Heng]

One way that could stop the build of so menay people taking ECM is to have anyone going into counter mod counter ALL ECM in range.

This means stacking heaps of ECM mechs could be countered by a single ECM mech. Suddenly you migth not need more then one or two.

This seems like basic game design to me.

If an ability is extremely powerful it should haveplenty of counters to make sure it is not overused.

Personally i felt LRMs already had this.

Pros:
- Tracking of targets
- Good damage
- High rate of fire
- Indirect fire

Cons:
- Slow travel time
- Missile lock indication
- 180 minimum range
- blocked by cover quite easily (related to slow travel time)
- Equipment to minimise its effectiveness - AMS


ECM on the other hand

Pros
- Stealth
- Immune to LRM fire
- Immune to streak fire
- Messes up enemy targetting indictors
- Negates artemis and BAP

Cons
- resticted to certain chassis
- Tag works against them - a little bit
- Other ECMs can cancel? Not really a con as you simply trade off with the enemy
- ????

So many pros - so little counters or downsides. If it is going to be powerful, make sure there are lots of counters.

If not, no not make it so powerful but make the counters less.

Simple as that. Wahtever has the most positive attributes and the lest negatives ones will be abused.

Edited by Asmudius Heng, 05 December 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[LarkinOmega]

As it is now with the additional:
TAG is 750 (planned by PGI)
ECM throws up a red circle shade on the minimap while in Disrupt mode. This tells you that at least 1 ECM mech is at the center of it. (Shamelessly stolen idea since it`s so good)
BAP equipped Mechs can lock at 50% range and at normal speed.

[batesman]

Excellent ideas!

"1) remove missile lock immunity. instead, give an extremely heavy lock on time penalty. like, rather than the +25% right now, make it a +100% time to lock, and halve the time you can maintain the lock once you (or your spotter) break LOS."

I was in a PUG tonight and this idea also came to me. If it were somehow more difficult to maintain a long range lock then that would somewhat negate the current need of an ECM solution.

I'm going to try to get the dev team's eyes on these ideas.

Thanks for all who've contributed, and those who have yet to contribute.

[TwoFaced]

anti ecm missle would work nicely, like 25pts damage, big mother hunker...pop u like a cork! woot

[Vrekgar]

zenstrata, on 05 December 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

I am not trying to be a jerk about this, but perhaps try using your eyes? This advanced detection method is used by successful pilots all over the inner sphere to identify and target enemies with an amazingly high success rate =)

If you see a mech that does not have a blue arrow over its head, shoot it! That's what I do =)

Good job. You just shot your team mate because he was inside an ECM bubble and your ability to discriminate who is friend or foe is nullified completely. No blue arrow, period.

Honestly right now you have to buy custom paint schemes and make your team aware of your color and pattern so they know who is who.

[TBB Grizz]

Spent a few hours last night working ECM into my builds and playstyle. Since Hunchies are ECM challenged I climbed into my trusty Fatlas. I run LRMs and mid to close range defensive weapons. No claims of being a great pilot or having the best builds. A kill or two and between 400-600 points of damage per match.

From the view of my lawnchair while swilling beer and flinging LRMs, ECM coverage in the "hide" mode is more than enough to shield a well organized team moving together. And it is definitely adequate to play "ninja mech" for scouts. Quick note, busted a few scouts who switched to counter. If you're going to sneak up on my chubby behind best not announce it. The two lights that can carry ECM now have things much easier, and safer. And that allows them to do their job. It also makes them and the Cicada 3M even more dangerous. A lot of flex there. For those who can not equip ECM, you have three choices.

Protect yourself, use of cover and AMS.
Hang with ECM equipped mechs.
Roll the dice. Face potential SSRMs and LRMs.

Until the teams "lock horns" I look for runners. After, I go LOS and stay (or try to) 250-350M. Kind of a poor mans SSRM. ECM protected rigs are almost invulnerable unless I have a teammate jamming or tagging for me. Players who use cover and have AMS, fair a bit worse. The rest and those I can catch unaware are still fair game.

I am sure there is some tweaking to be done. ECM is game changing. What I would recommend is what we are doing right now. Use it, fight against it. Keep threads like this going with good content. As for making it available to all mechs, no. But should there be more than four? Definitely. I also agree that the BAP might be a smidge better counter to the ECM. I like the counter via TAG. And the future proposed range of TAG.

It's hard to find a mech that is going to carry all the "extras" we have available. ECM is something that is helping the push of role warfare IMO. As a 100% no coms PUG, I can only appreciate the potential an organized team has available. The "do it all" rig may be getting harder to find. I kind of like it that way.

Edited by TBB Grizz, 05 December 2012 - 09:28 PM.