72 replies to this topic

[Revorn]

Codejack, on 07 December 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

but keeping fast lights painted is about impossible, and keeping Atlases painted is suicide.

You point it. +1

[AceTimberwolf]

Codejack, on 07 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Just to put this out there, ironic as it is to have to say this to the "streaks take no skill" crowd, but if you were good at this game before ECM, you are probably good at this game after ECM.

There are two exceptions:

1) New players who can't afford an ECM mech and/or don't run in premades where they can count on having ally ECM, as well as the general inexperience in dealing with it. This solves itself, though, to an extent...

2) People who were taking advantage of weapon systems that were unbalanced. This may have included streakcats. It may not. But it absolutely includes people who are currently finding themselves much "better" at the game just because ECM came out.

Guess what? That means that you used to suck at countering basic weapons of the game, and are only "better" because the game has effectively (and probably temporarily) diminished those weapons' capabilities.

If you thought streaks were bad, wait until you see Clan tech! If you couldn't counter a one trick pony like a streakcat, you are going to be absolutely hopeless against Clan LRMs.

Enjoy your feast today, for tomorrow will bring famine.

Clan LRMs are Direct Fire Only. Not indirect capable since to the Clans indirect Combat is not honorable

[GalaxyBluestar]

AceTimberwolf, on 07 December 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

Clan LRMs are Direct Fire Only. Not indirect capable since to the Clans indirect Combat is not honorable

just liked the aside humour there.

[Streeter]

Belkor, on 07 December 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Just won another match without ECM on my team while the enemy team had ECM. I don't see any glaring issues with ECM at all. ECMs have been an insignificant factor in deciding the outcome of my battles.

like others have said, some extra detail here would be great.

Ive found the exact opposite in all forms Pug, 4 man and 8v8. Admittedly it is not 100% but all the matches Ive had heavily skewed towards team with most ECMs will win.

Im running a Raven now, and if the other team has only 1 or less ECM mech its hello ~1000 damage match for me... in a 35 ton Raven! LOL

[Artifex 28]

Streeter, on 07 December 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

like others have said, some extra detail here would be great.

Ive found the exact opposite in all forms Pug, 4 man and 8v8. Admittedly it is not 100% but all the matches Ive had heavily skewed towards team with most ECMs will win.

Im running a Raven now, and if the other team has only 1 or less ECM mech its hello ~1000 damage match for me... in a 35 ton Raven! LOL

Yeah, seeing great success in Raven.

I mean, this is a DEFEAT, and looks like this.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

OVBlueGhost, on 07 December 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Pre-patch my damage numbers were between 600-1100 in good games.
Post-patch my damage numbers are between 600-1100 in good games, however I have fallen in love with the splatapault

Same numbers here.Not every match but still.
Prepatch I was running C4 jack-of-all-trades(2xLRM15 2xSSRM2 vs lights and 2xMlas) and now I run 2xMPLas 4xASRM6 getting same dmg,same kill(low bcuz of dmg spread) and same w/l ratio even in 8-man grps.I just dont use streaks or LRMs bcuz they are pretty much useless right now .

AceTimberwolf, on 07 December 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

Clan LRMs are Direct Fire Only. Not indirect capable since to the Clans indirect Combat is not honorable

Why to use CLRM(which are useless with ECM implementation how its right now) when we will have MRM40 ?

[Horned Bull]

Codejack, on 07 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

1) New players who can't afford an ECM mech and/or don't run in premades where they can count on having ally ECM, as well as the general inexperience in dealing with it. This solves itself, though, to an extent...

they are going to have a bad time in their trial mech anyway. Just imagine them fighting 6sl jenner, gausscat, dakkaract, (no ecm scenario) being decimated by LRM fire and streakcats.

Codejack, on 07 December 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

I've been playing around with a TAG on my C4 Catapult, but keeping fast lights painted is about impossible, and keeping Atlases painted is suicide.

Maybe try NARC?

Vermaxx, on 07 December 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Streak cats either did an average alpha strike, or a low chain dps. Their only saving graces were the nonexistent spread and the shake/smoke.

streaks go straight to the torso at the moment. Streakcats were like a gausscat sans aiming, just compare gausscat and streakcat dps.

[OVBlueGhost]

GalaxyBluestar, on 07 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

btw damage doesn't mean much these days i can run into some one and button mash my way to 500 damage without even scoreing a kill. it's really meaningless.

Well you're welcome to have a look at some games (although I think the first few went terrible last night
http://www.twitch.tv/blueghostgames

[James Warren]

Just for the record, I'm not intending to come across as a whinger and this is more.. ..just my thoughts and observations. I can appreciate that the game is still in development and new features are being added regularly, so certainly these things will get worked out in time (like... LRMS were briefly flavour of the month, followed by gauss cats, followed by SSRM cats, etc etc - just adapt and enjoy yourself).

Personally I think ECM needs to be something you cannot have active for an entire match. It is quite a powerful tool for the low weight cost and frankly it'd be more interesting to have the strategic decision of when to activate it. Or perhaps have a mild passive mode and then a stronger, although temporary, boost triggered by the pilot.

Consider these hypothetical situations:
A ) Team is caught out of cover, incoming LRMS. Activate ECM to break lock.
B ) Sneaky flank on enemy position. Activate ECM to approach undetected.

I think this would be more fun than simply having it 'always on'.

Another change I would suggest (either as an alternative or an addition to the above) would be reducing or removing the inability to lock onto ECM covered targets when they are firing weapons and/or at high heat.

I have been using both ECM and LRMS since the patch. There were plenty of matches where LRMS were still useful and dangerous, even with ECM present on both teams. I have had some situations where both teams moved past each other without anyone being picked up on radar. I've seen more 'cap-race' situations since ECM.

Someone earlier suggested using TAG as a solution. The problem with this is that you aren't guaranteed to be dropped with team-mates fitted with LRMS. Its not the end of the world having a redundant ton of TAG laser on your mech, but its not really a reliable solution. As ECM is currently, I feel it makes ECM capable mechs vastly superior to the other variants of their chassis, which is a problem. ECM should be a strategic decision. It should be worth its weight/slots, not its C-Bill cost.

Edited by James Warren, 08 December 2012 - 03:38 AM.

[F lan Ker]

S!

ECM should be toggled on/off. Keeping it running 24/7 would reveal you as effectively as just running naked thru the SuperBowl field. Turning on ECM sure makes you harder to lock but also becomes a beacon. This is why in RL there are HARM (High speed Antiradiation Missile), ECCM(includes various forms like frequency hopping etc.), ECM burn through, Missiles with HOJ capability(Home on Jam) etc. And lastly, ECM devices do create considerable amount of heat = not running 24/7. Just some pointers..meanwhile back to Atlas D-DC Online

[Codejack]

GalaxyBluestar, on 07 December 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

because the missle itself can outrun anything you'd have to be in a pretty fast mech to get around the corner and avoid being hit after the streak cat fired at you. infact it's funny that jenners went so fast that the missle made circles around the mech itself in complete confusion perhaps the only time you could get away from it. everytime i found a streak cat come around the corner i hoped either he was weak enough for my erlasers to take him or that someone else would distract him cause in an awesome with 80 ct front armour points i'd be dead within 20seconds. other than that it was pretty much game over. seriously ssrm 16 shouldn't be feared more in a close range battle than twin ac20's. it was knowing you could do nothing to escape from being hit. it freaked out everyone including the twin ac20 cats who i saw 3 weeks ago and thought oh boy wait till everyone exploits that build but know it was the streak cat the mech you'd have to gang up on or spot before it had a chance of reaching you or you were toast. i agree that you need no lock on skill with streaks cause your lock on isn't going to be disturbed by cover like with lrms and you can certainly hold it as it's in your face as you chase them down. at least with srm boats you have some aiming to do to make the most of your cluster shot.

OK, I think I see the problem: You were continuing to assume that your light mech should be able to go toe-to-toe with any heavy or assault mech, when what you should have done was turn around as soon as you saw the streakcat and run for support. If he chases, you can drag him back to your group to kill. Otherwise, just say, "Hey, streakcat in D4" or whatever and go somewhere else.

It is a mech specifically designed to kill your mech; rock to your scissors.

A dual ac/20 Catapult will tear a streakcat up. So will a quad-AC Cataphract. So will most well-built and -piloted Atlas' and Awesomes, and even really good Dragons. Or 2 mediums or lights working together. Or anything that can effectively engage it from outside of 270m.

[Codejack]

Korm, on 08 December 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

they are going to have a bad time in their trial mech anyway. Just imagine them fighting 6sl jenner, gausscat, dakkaract, (no ecm scenario) being decimated by LRM fire and streakcats.

...and now they can't even see the enemy. How is that an improvement?

Korm, on 08 December 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

Maybe try NARC?

Do you even play the game?!

Korm, on 08 December 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

streaks go straight to the torso at the moment. Streakcats were like a gausscat sans aiming, just compare gausscat and streakcat dps.

You have no idea what you are talking about; my gausscat gets 4-5 kills with 200-300ish damage. My streakcat gets 2-3 kills with 800ish damage. Yes, more damage, because I blew the arms and many side torsos off before I killed them. Good players could help mitigate streak damage by moving, torso-twisting, etc. There's pretty much NOTHING you can do about incoming Gauss, except move after it hits you. If you're still alive.

[GalaxyBluestar]

OVBlueGhost, on 08 December 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

Well you're welcome to have a look at some games (although I think the first few went terrible last night
http://www.twitch.tv/blueghostgames

pugging mate i'm talking pugging lrm boats are easy to use when you're muffling speach all over the place getting someone to look out for you with tag etc in your 4 man premade. infact i hear there's a lot of disgruntled pug players out there about the 4mans coming back. i said i'd give the game a miss for a month, then i heard details on the next patch so perhaps i'll be back on dec 18th. maybe then pugging will be random and filled with variety again. watching the vid i saw alot of salvos crash into the ground rather than hit anything, seemed a bit pointless turning up with a low hit average like that. the last fight you had a suicide jenner and many out in the open river you didn't need the tag. that's why i play sniper, you know what you're going to hit, leaving it to a homing system that cuts out cause a fly got in the way or something sounds like a death trap. still i liked the vid and loved see you giving the brawlers something to think about, cause they don't know how to dodge clearly. lrm's making people think that's how it should be

actaualy i'm very happy to hear so many lrm squads are returning and we need more to make the game interesting and to stop all the ecm bubble brawls and stealth caps. 18th of dec should be a fun time!

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 10 December 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Vermaxx, on 07 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Your opnion is assumed based on a lack of posting. If a thread starts, with only 10 participants, that is a clear indication of how insignificant the problem is.

You coming in, with less than 150 posts (yes, it is elitist, but suggests either you never participate in discussions or just got here) talking in generalizations about how x y z is not a significant threat, are not very productive.

Tell us if you are doing 8s or 4s, what composition you use, and a general outlay of tactics. If you are going to show up and be dismissive of the entire issue, then give us some real things to show codejack.

I'm not his buddy, and I don't necessarily think ECM is as game breaking as he does. I do think it was too much on invalidating two completely viable playstyles - short range lock missiles and long range fire support. BOTH BUILDS require actual participation as a player. I have run both, and I have seen how far you get rushing in like a douche or spamming LRM without bothering to verify the lock will last and terrain is not blocking.

I think ECM as is, tells players that PGI thinks that LRM and SSRM should only be used in teams by skilled people. That means they WILL ONLY BE USED IN TEAMS, BY HIGHLY SKILLED PEOPLE, and the sods fighting AGAINST it will often find themselves at a severe disadvantage.

So.... skilled means they can push both the "J" key... and the "R" key?
(While hiding behind LOLMAGICROMULANINVISIBILITYCLOAKROFL, of course).

[Ricama]

Belkor, on 07 December 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Just won another match without ECM on my team while the enemy team had ECM. I don't see any glaring issues with ECM at all. ECMs have been an insignificant factor in deciding the outcome of my battles.

When ECM came out I took the AMS off my D-DC and replaced it with ECM (you can talk about being able to split up the 2 slots of AMS but being able to put the entire system in a leg which never gets destroyed more than makes up for it). Before the patch I was getting hit with probably 1-2 vollies of LRMs per match (sometimes none, sometimes more but on average 1-2) which were somewhat reduced by AMS. Since the patch I have been hit by exactly 2 LRM vollies. This makes ECM better than another system of equal weight and space. (go ahead, talk about the price of something you can afford after 4 matches in a trial mech ... I could use a good laugh.)

But wait, there's more: While I have no problem using my streaks, other people have some trouble, it's not absolute of course but it still gives them trouble.

But wait, there's more: people at range can not tell what parts of my mech are damaged, so my left torso could be hanging on by a thread and they're none the wiser.

But wait, there's more: if I stand next to an enemy and they don't have ECM, they are effectivly cut off tactically from their team (unless they're part of the 10% on teamspeak, which most new people aren't). Their team has no idea where they are and they have no idea where their team is.

But wait, there's more: if someone purchased a Begal active probe (also 1.5 ton, 2 space, 400k c-bills) it's useless against me.

Oooooh, the tag laser can negate it, you know what counters AMS? Fire bigger vollies!

So go ahead, give your anicdotal evidence and say ECM doesn't have an effect on the game, I'll be too busy ninja-cap-rushing through the middle of the map in my big slow Assault to come back and read it. (and by the way, it's happening in 8-man premades so the "your opponents need to L2P" is getting really really strained)

[Codejack]

Ricama, on 10 December 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

When ECM came out I took the AMS off my D-DC and replaced it with ECM (you can talk about being able to split up the 2 slots of AMS but being able to put the entire system in a leg which never gets destroyed more than makes up for it). Before the patch I was getting hit with probably 1-2 vollies of LRMs per match (sometimes none, sometimes more but on average 1-2) which were somewhat reduced by AMS. Since the patch I have been hit by exactly 2 LRM vollies. This makes ECM better than another system of equal weight and space. (go ahead, talk about the price of something you can afford after 4 matches in a trial mech ... I could use a good laugh.)

But wait, there's more: While I have no problem using my streaks, other people have some trouble, it's not absolute of course but it still gives them trouble.

But wait, there's more: people at range can not tell what parts of my mech are damaged, so my left torso could be hanging on by a thread and they're none the wiser.

But wait, there's more: if I stand next to an enemy and they don't have ECM, they are effectivly cut off tactically from their team (unless they're part of the 10% on teamspeak, which most new people aren't). Their team has no idea where they are and they have no idea where their team is.

But wait, there's more: if someone purchased a Begal active probe (also 1.5 ton, 2 space, 400k c-bills) it's useless against me.

Oooooh, the tag laser can negate it, you know what counters AMS? Fire bigger vollies!

So go ahead, give your anicdotal evidence and say ECM doesn't have an effect on the game, I'll be too busy ninja-cap-rushing through the middle of the map in my big slow Assault to come back and read it. (and by the way, it's happening in 8-man premades so the "your opponents need to L2P" is getting really really strained)

Quit crying about how you have to learn to aim! ECM is fine! /sarcasm

[Steel Claws]

Vermaxx, on 07 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

I think ECM as is, tells players that PGI thinks that LRM and SSRM should only be used in teams by skilled people. That means they WILL ONLY BE USED IN TEAMS, BY HIGHLY SKILLED PEOPLE, and the sods fighting AGAINST it will often find themselves at a severe disadvantage.

I would argue that those Sods are going to struggle against a good player regardless of what they are driving and using.

There is some cap rushing going on but that is the resort of weak pilots for the most part and is easily countered by how you play the drop. This has always been an option and it hasn't been aided that much by ECM. We did it for a laugh way back in closed beta. Even if you can't get a radar target you still have eyes and there is still heat vision mode which allows you to see mechs from almost all the way accross the map. Try it some time.

I would also point out that it STILL doesn't require skill to use streaks or LRMs. LRMs will NOT be used much by 8 man teams unless they are messing around because against more skilled players they have always been for the most part ineffective (except for that two day LRM rain period). Our competition teams do not field LRM equipped mechs and we almost never see them. The only time I use LRMs is when I'm pugging or in a 4 man.

Edited by Steel Claws, 10 December 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[Mack1]

Screech, on 07 December 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Do you drink a red or a white wine with Streakcat tears?

M8 it's nothing to be proud of, you are actually saying that you could not fight Streak Cats. Anyone happy to see a powerful Mech leave the game is admitting their own failings, so allow me to say.

L2P

[Solis Obscuri]

Ricama, on 10 December 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

When ECM came out I took the AMS off my D-DC and replaced it with ECM (you can talk about being able to split up the 2 slots of AMS but being able to put the entire system in a leg which never gets destroyed more than makes up for it). Before the patch I was getting hit with probably 1-2 vollies of LRMs per match (sometimes none, sometimes more but on average 1-2) which were somewhat reduced by AMS. Since the patch I have been hit by exactly 2 LRM vollies. This makes ECM better than another system of equal weight and space. (go ahead, talk about the price of something you can afford after 4 matches in a trial mech ... I could use a good laugh.)

But wait, there's more: While I have no problem using my streaks, other people have some trouble, it's not absolute of course but it still gives them trouble.

But wait, there's more: people at range can not tell what parts of my mech are damaged, so my left torso could be hanging on by a thread and they're none the wiser.

But wait, there's more: if I stand next to an enemy and they don't have ECM, they are effectivly cut off tactically from their team (unless they're part of the 10% on teamspeak, which most new people aren't). Their team has no idea where they are and they have no idea where their team is.

But wait, there's more: if someone purchased a Begal active probe (also 1.5 ton, 2 space, 400k c-bills) it's useless against me.

Oooooh, the tag laser can negate it, you know what counters AMS? Fire bigger vollies!

So go ahead, give your anicdotal evidence and say ECM doesn't have an effect on the game, I'll be too busy ninja-cap-rushing through the middle of the map in my big slow Assault to come back and read it. (and by the way, it's happening in 8-man premades so the "your opponents need to L2P" is getting really really strained)

Yeah, but you're arguing in favor of overall balance and game enjoyment, not exploiting and always winning by exploiting.

Which is a different thing.

[Elkarlo]

Screech, on 07 December 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Do you drink a red or a white wine with Streakcat tears?

How a about a drink with Streak Cat Blood?
I was killed 10 times by a Streak Cat in about 300 Games...
3 times i was testing if the Streak Cats suite my Gameplay ( no it doesn't)
1 Time i was surprised
1 time i was testing a Mech config.
5 times fair and square

i killed on the other hand about 40-60 Streak Cats in this time (not with my own as i can't play it)

So i got plenty of Blood supply.. have a drink?

On the other hand, i got around 6 times killed by the 6srm6 cats because they had been ECM cloaked..
When there was no ECM Base Cap going on.

Edited by Elkarlo, 11 December 2012 - 02:56 AM.