72 replies to this topic

[F lan Ker]

S!

ECM would require more "skill", or better put thought using it, if it actually had drawbacks and limitations like: heat generation(those systems run HOT), toggleable to be on/off, BAP would reveal the location of the ECM source even not being able to help targeting it(electronic noise beacon, not a stealth system) and TAG would work at all ranges, SSRM would fire as SRM without lock as in TT, terrain elevation and buildings would have an effect as LOS is needed for ECM to work 100% etc.

Some thoughsts of above in more detail below.

How the ECM for example blocks the TAG laser from reflecting at a Mech's surface, thus providing needed feedback to get a target lock, is mildly put strange and not even logical. To do so the ECM would need to shut off TAG completely but this is not the case I believe, just does not provide lock for others within 180m. Increasing it's range is an improvement I guess. But to render laser useless or reduce it's efficiency would require smoke, low reflecting surfaces etc. and none of those are in MWO.

Terrain elevation and other obstacles(buildings, rock formations, caves etc.) would interfere the ECM like it does with radar. So an ECM Mech standing in a pit would jam that "bowl" but anything above and farther away would be un-affected. Same applies to being in a cave, ECM outside it would have no effect, buildings/high hills would distort ECM a lot and/or render it useless as well. So positioning your ECM Mech would become more crucial but also more risky as opponents could see you and pop in some shots.

ECM systems creating heat. From RL experience with these things I can say they create a lot of heat that needs to be dissipated through good airflow and other cooling mediums inside the equipment itself. To do their magic a lot of power is needed and it does not come without heat. So ECM could basically be toggleable to on/of and when on, would create a certain amount of heat strain to the Mech. This would make it a bit harder to install and blast away with high heat weapons as your heat would be already be higher when ECM is running. More pronounced for example on Caustic Valley.

BAP detecting ECM sources. I believe someone mentioned this being the case in TT. So why not in MWO too. After all ECM transmitter is one helluva beacon itself while operating. At the moment we have no indication whatsoever where the ECM group might be. With BAP being able to detect this would give some info that something with ECM is out there, but still not what it is. Adding to this could be the ECM having 2 modes, active and passive. In active it works as now, jamming enemy targeting and whatnot. In passive it could act as RWR (radar warning receiver) picking up radar and ECM signals and displaying them on a screen. Compare to the azimuth indicators on aircraft that shows the general direction of the threat/radiation source, but NOT the range.

Missiles, the infinite source of debates. AFAIK the SSRM would "dumb fire" like SRMs if they had no lock. Totally viable and not rendering them useless. Sure aiming would be a lot harder as SSRMs fly straight and do not spread like SRMs. Maybe adding a bit more heat to SSRM so there would be no chain firing "SemiStreak Cats" again. LRMs could have a lot longer locking time, narrower lock window to make it harder to get and keep a lock, but still making them viable in hands of a skilled pilot. With TAG problem is solved, locks can be acquired.

Just some thoughts on the ECM. I feel it adds a lot to the game if it would be tuned a bit more. Making it harder to use would not render it useless, there would be risk vs reward. But players do adapt as they have done up to now and will do in the future. So hopefully there will be improvementsin ECM among other issues in the game.

[Horned Bull]

Codejack, on 08 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

...and now they can't even see the enemy. How is that an improvement?

It isn't an improvement but it doesn't make the game worse, as it was pretty rough to them before

Codejack, on 08 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

You have no idea what you are talking about; my gausscat gets 4-5 kills with 200-300ish damage. My streakcat gets 2-3 kills with 800ish damage. Yes, more damage, because I blew the arms and many side torsos off before I killed them. Good players could help mitigate streak damage by moving, torso-twisting, etc.

Yet with a gausscat you have to aim, it's something more than just pressing left mouse button to win the game. Torso twisting? sure, for an atlas. Lights are dead after two salvos - first salvo and say goodbye to your armor, second salvo - see you in hell. Don't forget about chainfiring SSRMs. There's nothing better than perma cockpit shake.

Codejack, on 08 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

There's pretty much NOTHING you can do about incoming Gauss, except move after it hits you. If you're still alive.

Only if you're an assault fighting a gaussboat at point blank.

Streakcats were broken and they can all burn in hell.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Ya I like how people that couldn't measure up before are now telling us, players that actually could measure up before, that the game has gotten better with this blasted device. News flash, you still suck. It's just that now you have safety floats so you don't drown in the lake. If you didn't suck before, then you shouldn't have needed this thing anyway. The rest of us didn't. The only people behind this thing are the ones that were too lazy to slot an AMS or too stupid to properly pilot in terrain.

Streaks did need a nerf, but completely gutting all lockon missiles entirely shouldn't have been the solution. They should have just adjusted the Streaks and/or LRMs on their own accord. Either that or have made the ECM a much more subtle device.(Like the BAP was before they turned it into trash)

Edited by Bluten, 11 December 2012 - 04:30 AM.

[Ricama]

Bluten, on 11 December 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

Ya I like how people that couldn't measure up before are now telling us, players that actually could measure up before, that the game has gotten better with this blasted device. News flash, you still suck. It's just that now you have safety floats so you don't drown in the lake. If you didn't suck before, then you shouldn't have needed this thing anyway. The rest of us didn't. The only people behind this thing are the ones that were too lazy to slot an AMS or too stupid to properly pilot in terrain.

Streaks did need a nerf, but completely gutting all lockon missiles entirely shouldn't have been the solution. They should have just adjusted the Streaks and/or LRMs on their own accord. Either that or have made the ECM a much more subtle device.(Like the BAP was before they turned it into trash)

It is interesting to note that of the mechs that make heavy use of streaks, only the cat was excluded from the ECM club. They only dropped the Jenner under community pressure but initially it was in.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Ricama, on 11 December 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

It is interesting to note that of the mechs that make heavy use of streaks, only the cat was excluded from the ECM club. They only dropped the Jenner under community pressure but initially it was in.

A Jenner pilot don't got to care about ECM anyway. You just stack 6ML and pewpew. Didn't Garth say that was his favorite build in an old QA. I should try to dig that up... because now the build finally has it made. It has no counters of any kind. You'll never fall down, not even if you ran at 100k straight into a 100t Atlas. No one packs LRMs anymore, so you don't got to care about those tracking you down. If you see Streaks, just strafe near the ECM bubble and no one will hit you with those either, and that's assuming anyone is packing any. Most people shelfed Streaks too because they can't be reliably fired. LRMs are now entirely obsolete and Streaks are just weight filler with your last 2.5t assuming you're desperate to fill them. 2 of the 3 counters to fast Mechs is gone, and the first one had already been removed in a previous patch. I bet LBXs will become more common now, and I've already seen them used more often. That's all you got left to better hit a speedy target now.

When they buff the Tag, GL trying to keep that on a fast ECM Mech. They're just slapping you in the face here. You won't be able to keep up the first gun(which does no damage) on the target long enough in order to enable the second(which doesn't work on its own) to fire. It's hilarious what they're doing to this game... and also sad...

Edited by Bluten, 11 December 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

I like the weapon diversity.
I actually like LRMs as it made me duck and cover and not run to the enemy in a straight line.
I even enjoyed the Gaussapult players, as I loved to outmanoeuvre them, sneak in behind them and end their glass cannon.

All these options are negated by the current ECM implementation.
Now I still win a lot (my fav build is 4 LL K2 or a fast AC/SRM Centurion), but the game was reduced to brawl combat. There is a lot less skill involved now. Pugstomping in 4man actually got easier now as coordination is less needed. When everyone ends up in a big brawl you can easily outskill them with individual skill.
In 8 Man I see ECM as a big factor, but it usually ends up with the first few minutes taking shots at each other with ACs or Lasers (seeing less and less Glasscannons in 8 man) then followed by a flanking of the team that first decided to take the offensive and ends in a big brawl, where Atlas D-DC power wins (if your team can disable their lights first).

While I love the competitiveness of 8 man fights, I had much more fun before the new matchmaking when we encountered the likes of DHB, ELP, etc. as the games were much more tactical and exciting, as each side had a huge diversity of weapon systems used. I even liked losing to them, as the fights were intense and rewarding. Nowadays I cannot see that, it is the same thing every engagement -> like yay goons, they tunnel rush, get into position, lets brawl it out and the laser/AC pew commences...

[Badgerbanger]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

OMG the OP used the words Skill and ECM in the same sentence!

I do love his sense of irony.

[Asmosis]

OVBlueGhost, on 07 December 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Pre patch I ran a laser jenner, laser hunch and 2xlrm15 + 4xStreak A1.

Post patch I'm running a laser hunch, SRM 36 A1, and have a shiny new ECM atlas. Occasionally I'm using the laser jenner when I have other lights to run with.

Pre-patch my damage numbers were between 600-1100 in good games.
Post-patch my damage numbers are between 600-1100 in good games, however I have fallen in love with the splatapault

I think ECM needs to be toned down because it's reduced weapon diversity, streaks do however need a nerf in a brawl vs heavies, making them occasionally hit legs (enjoy trying to chew through an atlas' leg armour) would do, it has the added benefit of making them more deadly to lights, a heavy which is 100% dedicated to killing lights should annihilate them inside 270 range, thats fine.

There are plans to add streak "target" points to the arm and leg joints so thats already in the works. with ECM in the mix, srm's are far suprerior to ssrms unless your running a ECM ssrm mech yourself.

Current ECM implementation is on par with initial atremis implementation.

The main problem is it cuts out too much communication.

In PUG games, targeting mechs to give the red arrow IS the way you communicate because you dont have time to type out "Atlas in D6 has no rear armor, take him out from south west direction" On the off chance that you arent dead by the time you finish typing that, other players dont have the time to read it anyway.

Now, not only can you not communicate where enemies are and their condition, but you dont even know if that atlas in front of you is a friend or foe until you are either within 200m to get a red/blue arrow or it starts shooting you (which might just be a blue who didnt wait for friend/foe ID).

You also dont know if you are alone fighting those 3 enemy mechs, or if you have 3-4 lance members nearby.

Its just too much.

Disabling missile lock in the bubble and disabling enemies ability to "pass on" targeting info from within the bubble would have been sufficient.

Edited by Asmosis, 11 December 2012 - 06:00 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

My best ride is an Atlas with 4 Med Pulse, 2 SRM6, and an AC20. No ECM. I am weak on Caustic or on the lake in Forest city, but that comes with being a close range brawler. in the open I seem to have "Kick Me" painted on my Mech. But I loved that on River City I had a Jenner run around a building and "Twitch" Joe killed a Jenner! Sure it was a lucky shot! But It still felt awesome watching that speedy bastage fall like a rag doll!

Who needs to worry about ECM when you git that kind of Punch and good scouts!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 December 2012 - 06:03 AM.

[steelblueskies]

AceTimberwolf, on 07 December 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

Clan LRMs are Direct Fire Only. Not indirect capable since to the Clans indirect Combat is not honorable

yet they use swarm missiles which employ iff to negate ff with aoe explosions. also streak launchers. the irony.

lastly do yourself a favor and reread the honor level rules for each clan. total warfare or strategic operations both show them taking a toilet dive from pre invasion to post.

basically, if you missed it, we inner sphere people are such dirty scum that even their hard and fast idealist honor system backed by significantly superior tech, broke the malf down.

--------------------
picked up a cicada 3m. had a drop in a pug, totally solo drop mind you, where i had no hud at all. no heat, weapons, damage doll, chat, map, targeting, ecm info, etc. but i could see clearly.

it reminded me of fighting ecm equipped units in a brawl without any counter.

least i managed a couple assists with my paltry 86 damage(if you can't see paint due to weather effects, and have no targeting info, how do you tell if the catapult there is the friendly or the enemy? or that hunch? kept holding shots not wanting to drill friendlies and waiting for someone to fire at me. ecm still worked so gogo being useful). brought up another thought though. thermal. in frozen in a snowstorm even trying to use paint to identify units you are sol. need some ir reflective tape or something that shows on therms.

Edited by steelblueskies, 11 December 2012 - 06:57 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

cause there is a big difference between Combat and War.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Badgerbanger, on 11 December 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

OMG the OP used the words Skill and ECM in the same sentence!

I do love his sense of irony.

*slots his ECM*
*sticks fingers in ears*
*rushes to 300m for pewpew*
LA LA LA LA MISSILES DONT CARE LA LA GAME IS FINE **** LA LA LA LA.
^ That's our playerbase now.

Mack1(guy behind my signature's video) made some funny joke in his second video(none rambling) after that. He was quoting these Korn lyrics and he said something like... we... don't... need... no... lrms... newbs... leave lrms alone.

[Plavis]

Bluten, on 11 December 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

*slots his ECM*
*sticks fingers in ears*
*rushes to 300m for pewpew*
LA LA LA LA MISSILES DONT CARE LA LA GAME IS FINE **** LA LA LA LA.
^ That's our playerbase now.

Mack1(guy behind my signature's video) made some funny joke in his second video(none rambling) after that. He was quoting these Korn lyrics and he said something like... we... don't... need... no... lrms... newbs... leave lrms alone.

Lyrics is from Pink Floyd, Another Brick in the Wall

[Joseph Mallan]

Bluten, on 11 December 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

*slots his ECM*
*sticks fingers in ears*
*rushes to 300m for pewpew*
LA LA LA LA MISSILES DONT CARE LA LA GAME IS FINE **** LA LA LA LA.
^ That's our playerbase now.

Mack1(guy behind my signature's video) made some funny joke in his second video(none rambling) after that. He was quoting these Korn Pink Floyd lyrics and he said something like... we... don't... need... no... lrms... newbs... leave lrms alone.

Had to fix this one mistake. Those are Pink Floyd Lyrics from their song "Another Brick in the Wall" IF I remember the song correctly.

[Sarevos]

Bluten, on 11 December 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

Ya I like how people that couldn't measure up before are now telling us, players that actually could measure up before, that the game has gotten better with this blasted device. News flash, you still suck. It's just that now you have safety floats so you don't drown in the lake. If you didn't suck before, then you shouldn't have needed this thing anyway. The rest of us didn't. The only people behind this thing are the ones that were too lazy to slot an AMS or too stupid to properly pilot in terrain.

Streaks did need a nerf, but completely gutting all lockon missiles entirely shouldn't have been the solution. They should have just adjusted the Streaks and/or LRMs on their own accord. Either that or have made the ECM a much more subtle device.(Like the BAP was before they turned it into trash)

There are a few problems with some of your statements:

1. Just because one can best a system doesnt mean it isnt broken It simply means that there is a way to beat it and that person found it. Good players are always good and adaptable that does NOT mean the weapon system is not imbalanced however... if two players of equal skill level face off and one loaded with one kind of weapon system usually wins thats not proper balance dont you agree? (note this is hypothetical)

2. What if you had no problems before or after ecm and believe that ecm didnt really unbalance the game? does that make your point valid?

3. If, as you say, "you didnt suck before" should you even have a problem now? or did you "suck" before and needed a crutch that was dismantled by ecm? I havent had much of a problem with ecm as a long range support, either we have an ecm counter, or we kill the one with ecm pretty simple tactics.

4. Being adaptable makes ecm rather weak. I tend to carry ER LLS or ER PPCS to back up my lrms (did that since CB and its worked pretty well) so I'm never locked out and if i really wanted to i can dumbfire the lrms if an enemy shuts down under ecm coverage.

I personally do not own any chassis capable of mounting ecm (or a light or medium for that matter)

[Pando]

Codejack, on 07 December 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I wouldn't know, mine doesn't cry.

Epic.

[PurpleLike]

Every time I login to play this game it is less and less fun. The joy crushing dominance of premades and now this obtuse ECM nonsense has taken its toll. I guess they want to appeal to as narrow a demographic as possible (the hard core clan type). As for the rest of us (the majority of us), who want to just jump into a game and have fun running around in a giant robot shooting things up- we're out of luck. I haven't been this disappointed since I prepaid for Aliens vs Predators. Guess, I'll wait a couple of months and see what happens.

[Sarevos]

Bluten, on 11 December 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

When they buff the Tag, GL trying to keep that on a fast ECM Mech. They're just slapping you in the face here. You won't be able to keep up the first gun(which does no damage) on the target long enough in order to enable the second(which doesn't work on its own) to fire. It's hilarious what they're doing to this game... and also sad...

or I could simply shoot the fast ecm mech like I always have 9_9. Streaks are a crutch for a different problem (netcode) rather than crying about ecm killing your ability to kill lights cry about the poor netcode making it hard (for some i should say i just hit the lil ***** with lasers) to hit lights

[Imagine Dragons]

Asmosis, on 11 December 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

Current ECM implementation is on par with initial atremis implementation.

Except ECM was intended, Artemis was a super bug, it was NOT intended.

And people need to start reading about ECM and EWAR in general before posting what it should do based on reality...

[Sarevos]

PurpleLike, on 11 December 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Every time I login to play this game it is less and less fun. The joy crushing dominance of premades and now this obtuse ECM nonsense has taken its toll. I guess they want to appeal to as narrow a demographic as possible (the hard core clan type). As for the rest of us (the majority of us), who want to just jump into a game and have fun running around in a giant robot shooting things up- we're out of luck. I haven't been this disappointed since I prepaid for Aliens vs Predators. Guess, I'll wait a couple of months and see what happens.

the game is pretty much sold on "role warfare" half the game is gone if there is no "roles". This is a simple "read the box" kind of thing. This wasnt a robot deathmatch to begin with you should have noticed that from the get go I'm afraid =[

XenomorphZZ, on 11 December 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Except ECM was intended, Artemis was a super bug, it was NOT intended.

And people need to start reading about ECM and EWAR in general before posting what it should do based on reality...

To be honest the canon ecm is supposed to disable your hud if he gets too close =x. I much prefer the current fuggery to being out and out blind.