64 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Funny i thought Artemis worked with Missiles khobai. When I use my ECCM to break ECM, My Artemis Missile carrier can effectively use his weapons, add to that a TAG and those Expensive to use Missiles are fully effective once again.

Artemis doesnt work with Missiles against a competent team with sufficient ECM. What youre describing only works against pugs. Try it against a full premade of 4-8 ECM mechs. Its a joke. You only need one mech in disrupt mode to cover the whole team and everyone else can go into counter mode and no ECCM is gonna affect you.

ECM should not fully negate Artemis. Its that simple. When a 1.5 ton piece of equipment starts neutralizing other pieces of equipment that are twice or even three times its own tonnage that is NOT balanced. So I maintain that ECM should only negate about 50% of Artemis' effectiveness. Soft counters are ALWAYS a better way to balance than hard counters and ECM hard counters too many things.

Edited by Khobai, 10 December 2012 - 07:19 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

With a team of equal 4-8 ECMs? ECM has always blocked Artemis. ALWAYS.

Now talk to our EW soldiers and they do say that ECM is to strong. because after 'a while' Sensors DO 'burn through' ECM in RL. But we don't want to envoke RL military experience right?

[Khobai]

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With a team of equal 4-8 ECMs? ECM has always blocked Artemis. ALWAYS.

So why use Artemis if 4-8 ECM mechs is the norm? There is absolutely no reason to waste the tonnage on Artemis if its always going to be blocked. That is a fact. That is why Artemis should not be hard countered... so theres still a reason to take it.

Rock, Paper, Scissors is NEVER a good model to base a game on. Hard counters should be avoided whenever possible because they stifle player choices. Soft counters let players make more choices that matter... like being able to equip Artemis without having to worry about it being 100% negated by ECM.

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Now talk to our EW soldiers and they do say that ECM is to strong. because after 'a while' Sensors DO 'burn through' ECM in RL. But we don't want to envoke RL military experience right?

Real life is irrelevant to MWO. Period.

Edited by Khobai, 10 December 2012 - 07:30 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

There is always a reason to use Missiles. I don't have to burn through all your ECM to allow My Missile boats to kill your teammates i just have to burn through enough to target you with streaks or Artemis.

As to this:

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Real life is irrelevant to MWO. Period.

Then quit complaining, cause ECM isn't mimicking RL

Artemis has worked just fine for those on my team using them. Sometimes we don't have enough Counter measures to use the missiles But that is the chance you take going into combat. You have grenades... Your enemy has Mortars! Opps to bad! You die a horrible death cause the enemy didn't play fair!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 December 2012 - 07:32 AM.

[soarra]

i ran my c1 yesterday and had top damage/kills most games with artemis. Lrm's are fine, throw a tag on there or make a friend with a scout..Also you do not need a lock to fire the missiles to an area.

[Khobai]

Again you have missiles confused with artemis... just because your missiles are working doesnt mean your artemis is.

[soarra]

take artemis off and see the difference.. Its there

[Roughneck45]

I just wish it kept the spread tight for the entirety of the range on SRMs.

Currently they are tight for the first half, then fan out quite a bit at about half range, and then converge again at max.

If it was just straight the whole time they would be a lot better.

Edited by Roughneck45, 10 December 2012 - 08:46 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 10 December 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Again you have missiles confused with artemis... just because your missiles are working doesnt mean your artemis is.

If the ECM is blocked then Artemis is working, I am not confusing anything sir. Artemis and Streaks are exactly what ECMs were designed to nerf.

[Sarevos]

make artemis system work like the javelin missile system then supports can guide their missiles towards their reticule after firing intuitive skill based needs line of sight and no more "boo hoo ecm killed any kind of tactics in this game"

[EnigmaNL]

Rex Budman, on 10 December 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Well Artemis mainly helps with grouping but does give a better lock on for LRM (I'm not sure what they do exactly on LRM).

Perhaps if they help grouping of SRM and not so much the LRM? Do you use the SRM at all?

I use SRM a lot actually. I use it on my Jenner and on my Atlas and I really don't have a problem with them. On my Atlas D is use 2 SRM6. They spread a lot but for close combat they work perfectly fine (SRM is also designed for close combat). On my Jenner D I use 2 SRM4 and I really like it, takes some skill to aim but it does some nice damage.

I never use Artemis because it makes everything too heavy and expensive.

[Khobai]

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If the ECM is blocked then Artemis is working, I am not confusing anything sir. Artemis and Streaks are exactly what ECMs were designed to nerf.

Against a competent premade team you wont block their ECM. We overlap our ECMs in counter mode so that exact thing cant happen. You only need one person in disrupt mode everyone else goes counter.

And again.. just because ECM works a certain way in tabletop doesnt mean it should work that way in MWO. Hard counters as a game design philosophy were mostly abandoned in the 90s for a reason... because they lead to predictable and stale gameplay. Kindve like how ECM has turned MWO into a laser and ballistic joust. Zzzz.

The reality of whats going on here is that you have such a hatred for LRMs that you would rather see them not be viable at all than be balanced fairly with the other weapons in the game. Probably because you either pilot a light or medium mech which I imagine is the source of your bias. LRMs are simply not good enough to justify jumping through so many hoops to use them (direct fire weapons are 1000% better right now), and fixing Artemis so its not hard countered by ECM is a necessity for getting LRMs back on the right track. Nerfing indirect LRM fire is another step that needs to be taken as well to balance LRMs once ECM super stealth invisibility mode is removed.

If missiles are overpowered its missiles that need to be fixed. Introducing ECM as a new overpowered element to bandaid an old overpowered element is just an absurd way to balance things.

1) Streaks should not be hardcountered by ecm. Instead disrupted streaks should fire as normal srm2s. that is an example of an intuitive soft counter that closely follows the rules of tabletop.

2) Likewise artemis, bap, narc, etc... should not be hardcounted by ecm. Instead they should be soft countered in a way that reduces their effectiveness but doesnt render them useless. TAG is an example of this done properly. Artemis, BAP, and NARC were not handled with the same thoughtfulness as TAG.

3) ECM should not grant super stealth mode. It does not do this in tabletop nor in any previous game. If they want to add super stealth mode to the game the only equipment that should do it is null signature system .

4) LRMs should be balanced in accordance with tabletop. The biggest problem with LRMs as I see it is the accuracy of indirect fire. So simply reduce the accuracy of indirect fire, like in tabletop, and make artemis no longer function on indirect targets. Simple as that. Now LRMs are balanced, ECM is balanced, and no piece of equipment is hard countered into obscurity.

Edited by Khobai, 10 December 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[Roland]

Rex Budman, on 10 December 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

Does anyone feel Artemis could do a little more in terms of grouping SRM?

It just seems the payoff isn't that decent when paying for the extra costs, slots and tonnage...

I don't know... What do you missle users think?

Honestly, when I run Artemis on my LRM mechs, the result is absolute hilarity when it comes to the amount of damage done to the target.

If you fire two Artemis LRM 20's at a target you have direct LOS to, that mech doesn't have any freaking armor left on its torso when the volley is done.

[ollo]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

ECCM makes missiles useful... try it sometime.

Yeah, right, because there are so many Mech sporting missiles that also can equip ECM...

[Khobai]

ECCM is useless unless you have more ECCM than the opposing team. Which wont happen against our team since we typically field 4-8 ECM mechs. Theres literally no reason not to use ECM mechs because they all have amazing hardpoints particularly the D-DC and Raven.

[SpiralRazor]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

If the ECM is blocked then Artemis is working, I am not confusing anything sir. Artemis and Streaks are exactly what ECMs were designed to nerf.

..... When we gear to win, instead of trying to have some fun, let me tell you that OUR Streaks and Artemis work just fine. Indeed, fielding 4 to 8 ECM mechs is the way to go, and the only stumbles we have is against teams fielding the same amounts of ECM...and then its a crap shoot where nobodies stuff works right, until the 2nd half of the game...and then the team with MORE ECM remaining, wins.


ECM isnt nerfing Artemis or Streaks, its nerfing players directly because whoever has more ECM tends to win by a large margin.

Its totally stupid and anyone defending ECM in its current incarnation is totally stupid as well.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 10 December 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[SpiralRazor]

"3) ECM should not grant super stealth mode. It does not do this in tabletop nor in any previous game. If they want to add super stealth mode to the game the only equipment that should do it is null signature system ."



The only thing i would add to that sentence is " and also all the associated drawbacks such a system brings with it"

[Odins Fist]

Rex Budman, on 10 December 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

"Artemis Needs Buff"

.
I disagree...

[Roland]

Khobai, on 10 December 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Theres literally no reason not to use ECM mechs because they all have amazing hardpoints particularly the D-DC and Raven.

Yeah... I guess unless you want to run ANY heavy mech? Or any good medium chassis?

The Hardpoints for the ECM mechs really aren't that uber overall... How do you know this? How many people, prior to ECM, where complaining that the Raven 3L or the Atlas DC were crazy OP? Hmm....Zero.

Your post here seems to suggest that all of the mech chassis which were widely considered the most powerful in the game... mechs like the gaussapult, or the various Cataphract variants, are suddenly useless because they can't carry ECM. Sorry, but I don't think that's an accurate representation of the current state of the game.

Why would I run a non-ECM mech? Because I want to carry weapons that the ECM chassis can't field.. like dual Gauss, or a boatload of lasers, or multiple UAC's...

Edited by Roland, 10 December 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[Khobai]

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Yeah... I guess unless you want to run ANY heavy mech? Or any good medium chassis?

The Cicada-3M is the only good medium chassis. Aside from maybe the Centurion-D and the YLW. Every other medium is a slow moving deathtrap.

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How many people, prior to ECM, where complaining that the Raven 3L or the Atlas DC were crazy OP? Hmm....Zero.

Its ECM that made them OP.

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Why would I run a non-ECM mech? Because I want to carry weapons that the ECM chassis can't field.. like dual Gauss, or a boatload of lasers, or multiple UAC's...

Dual Gauss is a terrible build now that they explode. Why would anyone subject themselves to that? Geez.