50 replies to this topic

[Lefty Lucy]

While I do enjoy some aspects of the game that ECM has created (mechwarrior online versus lockwarrior online), I'm not sure that having TAG be the counter to ECM is good balance. Sure, holding a tag laser steady on an AS7-D-DC is really easy, but doing so on a Raven, Cicada, or Commando is much, much more difficult.

I don't think that having the counter to a powerful, low-effort item require high effort is a good balancing paradigm.

Should the built-in counter to ECM be something that is also passive, but perhaps only function well at close range, so that you have to put yourself into danger to effectively counter ECM? I realize that ECM itself currently functions like this, but when you have to bring rock to beat rock that's not really good game design.

[soarra]

i find ac/20's to be the best counter to ECM mechs lights or Atlai.

[Tennex]

should ECM be as low tonnage as it is?

[Sorho]

soarra, on 10 December 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

i find ac/20's to be the best counter to ECM mechs lights or Atlai.

If you can hit a light reliably with an AC/20 my hat is off to you.

[soarra]

Sorho, on 10 December 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

If you can hit a light reliably with an AC/20 my hat is off to you.

it makes me happy assassinating commando's.. i have tons of vids

[Solis Obscuri]

Sorho, on 10 December 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

If you can hit a light reliably with an AC/20 my hat is off to you.

Perhaps with the projectile velocity boost going in next patch it will become a more regular phenomenon, but I'm not holding my breath.

[soarra]

http://s768.photobuc...nt=commando.mp4
i like the way the commandos legs fly over his head when hes falling

[Blark]

soarra, on 10 December 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

http://s768.photobuc...nt=commando.mp4
i like the way the commandos legs fly over his head when hes falling

Nice shot, even tough the commando was going pretty slow and in a straight line; at least he was not warping

[soarra]

yeah that was an easy one.. but in general they are not too hard to pick off.. and most are pretty dumb

[soarra]

i just wish more people would target the ecm mechs first

[Scratx]

TAG isn't a counter to ECM. At least, not a complete counter. Most it can do is reveal one hidden mech. Also uses an energy hardpoint which can be a PITA to deal with as you're sacrificing firepower in order to bring something that may or may not be useful.

[Pygar]

ECM seems low effort when it is working well, but ECM does actually require some effort to really utilize. I have seen plenty of PUG games where ECM did not do very well because of people not playing very well as a team.

Out of the 3 possible sensor boosters that could possibly help against ECM, BAP is the only one that is passive, and if they make BAP so that it does counter ECM, it should only counter ECM for the BAP equipped mech, and it should be limited by range and LOS (possibly movement too). TAG and NARC modules should be huge counters for ECM, as both require active targeting in order to work.

If they make it so that the sensor suites do more to help against ECM, ECM itself will require that much more effort use effectively, which I think in turn will make ECM feel just about right in the actual game.

[The Cheese]

There are four ways to go about this:
1) Make the item less effective and keep the same costs.
2) Increase the costs of carrying the item, but do not reduce effectiveness.
3) Increase the effectiveness of the ECM's countering equipment.
3) A combination of the above.

An example of making it less effective might be to remove or reduce the effects that it has on other installable electronics equipment. (ie, it might reduce the duration of a NARC beacon, rather than negate it entirely (assuming NARC is actually made useful one day)) You could argue that a NARC beacon inside an ECM field might increase it's signal power output to compensate at the cost of a reduced duration.

An example of increasing the cost might be to increase the weight of the item and/or make it take up more critical space. Perhaps make it a toggle on/off item (like TAG, but without having to hold the button down) which generates a small amount of heat while it's turned on. This will help with those pesky lights, as they won't be able to put down so much damage while they skitter around you like roaches without an increased risk of overheating. While this isn't canon, it is based in science (BT + science = wut?). High power electromagnetic waves do generate heat. It's how your microwave works.

An example of increasing the effectiveness of the ECM's countering equipment might be to increase the range of TAG and allow it to be effective (ie, the target stays "tagged") for a few seconds or so after the beam is no longer on the target. Got no science here, but who needs that anyway?

Making it more expensive to buy won't do anything. I hope they don't consider this as a balancing option.

Just to be clear, I don't think the ECM's effects are overpowered on their own. However, I do think they're overpowered when you take into account the costs associated with using one. Also, as it stands, the countering equipment is a joke.

Edited by The Cheese, 10 December 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[Stormur Herra]

Lefty Lucy, on 10 December 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Should the built-in counter to ECM be something that is also passive, but perhaps only function well at close range, so that you have to put yourself into danger to effectively counter ECM? I realize that ECM itself currently functions like this, but when you have to bring rock to beat rock that's not really good game design.

The counter to ECM is already as simple and easy to use as ECM. Just flip into the other mode .

[Lefty Lucy]

The Cheese, on 10 December 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Just to be clear, I don't think the ECM's effects are overpowered on their own. However, I do think they're overpowered when you take into account the costs associated with using one. Also, as it stands, the countering equipment is a joke.

I agree. I think ECM is fine. I just think that streaks are still *not* fine, and ECM lets you play the streak game while simultaneously denying your opponent the same.

Stormur Herra, on 10 December 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

The counter to ECM is already as simple and easy to use as ECM. Just flip into the other mode .

Again, having to be rock to beat rock is bad game design.

[Stormur Herra]

Lefty Lucy, on 10 December 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

Again, having to be rock to beat rock is bad game design.

Very true. The best counter to a COM-2D is a better played COM-2D. Though the Raven is more suited to taking it down 1v1 if the time to do it doesn't matter (as opposed to needing to hit and run in the middle of the enemy team).

[Joseph Mallan]

The counter to ECM is ECCM and or close range fire.

[Vlad Ward]

I'm not too worried about this.

The durability of Light mechs is due for a massive decrease once Netcode is fixed and collisions are reintroduced without any other action on the Developer's part.

Once that's done, you won't be seeing these harasser Ravens running around with impunity, and TAG will be a viable counter to AS7-D-DCs.

On top of that, once the Stalker is introduced (and later the Highlander), we'll actually have Assault Mechs to choose from whose primary function is to blow everything up. Taking an AS7-D-DC in those cases is depriving the team of a large chunk of potential firepower.

[OpCentar]

I said a few times before in other discussions, you cannot balance an area of effect system with a direct line (of sight) one.


However, I doubt we will ever get a dedicated, automatic ECCM system which negates ECM in the same 180m bubble and, most mechs can carry.


So I would settle for improved TAG.

All the problems related to our current TAG will be somewhat mitigated by increased TAG range, 450>750m, but that isn't enough. TAG needs to be reclassified as a special targeting equipment which doesn't require an energy weapon hard point.

That way it will balanced with ECM which also doesn't take any weapon hard point.

For it's tonnage, TAG would then be a reasonable ECCM system as it wouldn't counter any of the area of effect benefits of ECM yet every mech could have it.


If you're already assembling a "OMG not another StreakCat bonanza" reply, you can stop now as this improved TAG wouldn't work for SSRMs lock. At best it would give them the option of manual firing but no near 100% hit ratio and any sort of tracking ability.

Finer details are, as always, up for discussion.

[SpiralRazor]

Should chocolate and peanut butter go together?


Yes I say, yes they should.