112 replies to this topic

[Codejack]

SHS are better on Gauss builds.

[thenightisdark]

Codejack, on 10 December 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

SHS are better on Gauss builds.

why

I will even give my why not!

Guass with single and double is the exact same thing. So, SHS is not better, than DHS. Its the same, and same means SAME. not better or worse. Heck, its better, on a SUPER HOT world the engine might need extra cooling. A free 10 extra heat disapation is better than not having a free 10 heat generation. SO, DHS is better than SHS.

[Vassago Rain]

Codejack, on 10 December 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

SHS are better on Gauss builds.

If you put dubs on, you can take a bunch of small lasers no problem. For 1.5 million? Not really worth it. I could crank some numbers on the cents, hunchbacks, and so on, and it'd always be better to go with dubs. Would it be such an improvement, 1.5 million dollars look reasonable on something you use for skill unlocks and credit grinding? I don't think so.

Everything I normally play has it as the first upgrade. It's pretty much mandatory.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

p00k, on 10 December 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

ironic, in that, with dhs i can get you 39.6 shs equivalent, still keeping a standard engine (and making you move at 61 since you're factoring speed tweak), same armor, with a ton to spare

The extra ton goes into AMS or BAP

[Khobai]

PGI's logic is flawed.

If DHS at 2.0 would make SHS obsolete, then buff SHS!!! Since most of the stock mechs use SHS it would be a direct buff for stock mechs, which EVERYONE has been complaining about right along, because they overheat soooo bad (even the ones that shouldnt overheat at all tend to overheat like crazy).

Buff DHS to 2.0
Buff SHS to 1.2

Edited by Khobai, 10 December 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[Crayzed Lyon]

Take a dual gauss build with 10 SHS into the hot crater in the middle Caustic Valley. You'll overheat if you constantly shoot.

[Aznpersuasion89]

i use singles

[Vassago Rain]

Aznpersuasion89, on 10 December 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

i use singles

Why? Dubs are always an upgrade, as long as you're gonna use the heat for something.

[Aznpersuasion89]

because they arent doubles, they are only 1.5X as effective. now, i havent had them since they first came out and im sure that weapon heat and DHS effectiveness may have been modified. but when my buddy had the same build as me with lots of singles to my DHS he was more heat efficient. and i usually run lasers and gauss and dont produce too much heat for my fighting style.

[Elizander]

Doubles on everything, pretty much, unless I want to waste tonnage that I can use for another weapon from just stacking singles and do less damage than a DHS mech.

K2? You can add 2-4 Medium Lasers on any AC20 or Gauss build for more damage and the same goes for almost any other similar design.

DHS is pretty much a mandatory upgrade for any effective mech build.

[Vassago Rain]

Aznpersuasion89, on 10 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

because they arent doubles, they are only 1.5X as effective. now, i havent had them since they first came out and im sure that weapon heat and DHS effectiveness may have been modified. but when my buddy had the same build as me with lots of singles to my DHS he was more heat efficient. and i usually run lasers and gauss and dont produce too much heat for my fighting style.

The engine sinks are truedubs.

[Devils Advocate]

Double heat sinks are always an upgrade no matter what your build is, especially right now with the engine heat sinks being at double standard heat sink efficiency. The theoretical build that takes advantage of the crit space requirement of the standard heat sink must have no ammo in it to put in the safest place on your mech (the legs) and yet only generates enough heat to require something like 15 standard heat sinks. A tag laser/narc cannon mech with no weapons on it?

[Roland]

Crunk Prime, on 10 December 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Garth had this to say about DHS in the recent ask the dev thread.



He says full 2.0 DHS wont go in because it makes SHS obsolete(which is the point), and that nobody would use singles anymore. But now I want to ask, do any of you even use singles anymore? I know once I can afford it I slap doubles on my mechs. Engine heatsinks are already at 2.0, so I still just cant wrap my head around not making them all 2.0.

Even lore wise once DHS were out and common almost everybody switched over because singles suck.

You don't really understand game balance, eh?

I mean, you understand that in your world, there is literally no reason to actually HAVE single heat sinks, right? That you could achieve the same effect by simply doubling the efficiency of single heat sinks, and removing double heat sinks entirely.

For game balance, there actually has to be utility in running single heat sink configs. As it stands, there are only a handful of situations where it's beneficial to run singles... If you run doubles on every one of your configs, then it becomes really hard for you to effectively argue that double heat sinks need to be buffed even further.

[Aznpersuasion89]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

The engine sinks are truedubs.

that means i would get 2 whole DHS for 1.5 mil. not worth it for me. but again, they just dont fit my style or build for that matter.

[Crunk Prime]

Roland, on 10 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

You don't really understand game balance, eh?

I mean, you understand that in your world, there is literally no reason to actually HAVE single heat sinks, right? That you could achieve the same effect by simply doubling the efficiency of single heat sinks, and removing double heat sinks entirely.

For game balance, there actually has to be utility in running single heat sink configs. As it stands, there are only a handful of situations where it's beneficial to run singles... If you run doubles on every one of your configs, then it becomes really hard for you to effectively argue that double heat sinks need to be buffed even further.

So then get rid of single heat sinks, and bump double to 2.0. In later mech warrior games they dont even have single heatsinks or standard armor, because Doubles and Ferro Fibrous are the standard and used in everything because they are better in every way. They are direct upgrades.

[Vassago Rain]

Roland, on 10 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

You don't really understand game balance, eh?

I mean, you understand that in your world, there is literally no reason to actually HAVE single heat sinks, right? That you could achieve the same effect by simply doubling the efficiency of single heat sinks, and removing double heat sinks entirely.

For game balance, there actually has to be utility in running single heat sink configs. As it stands, there are only a handful of situations where it's beneficial to run singles... If you run doubles on every one of your configs, then it becomes really hard for you to effectively argue that double heat sinks need to be buffed even further.

They are supposed to do just that, because all the tech that relies on it uses a lot more heat. You can't effectively use most of the bling without real dubs.

There's almost zero mechs by 3030 that use singles. This game takes place in 3049. Space chinese will sometimes use them. Everybody else forgets they exist.

[Roland]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

They are supposed to do just that, because all the tech that relies on it uses a lot more heat. You can't effectively use most of the bling without real dubs.

Heat sink efficiency is simply a number that comes into play when you address game balance.

If you can use energy weapons to the extent that they compete with other weapons, then the heat efficiency is good enough. It doesn't matter if it matches tabletop values, because a huge amount of stuff is already different from tabletop values.

Do you think that energy weapons are currently underpowered? Given how many energy weapons I see on the field, constantly, the answer is obviously no... especially given that you ALREADY have full double heat dissipation in all of the engine heat sinks, and thus boosting the external heat sink efficiency would have a somewhat muted impact anyway.

Quote

There's almost zero mechs by 3030 that use singles.

Given that the Cappellans fielded the BJ-3 Variant of the Blackjack in 3030, and it was the first mech in centuries to field double heat sinks, this statement is not even close to true.

According to sarna, double heat sinks have replaced single heat sinks on most mechs by 3058... 8 years into the future from now.

But no one will argue that double heat sinks aren't generally better than singles. They are. In virtually every single situation they are. And in MWO, the same is the case. Essentially every single mech in the game benefits from upgrading to double heat sinks.

That doesn't really matter when trying to decide what kind of dissipation they should get though. Because only game balance has an impact on that.

And frankly, I'm not seeing energy weapons as underpowered currently.

[thenightisdark]

Roland, on 10 December 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

And frankly, I'm not seeing energy weapons as underpowered currently.

Can I ask which energy weapons you are talking about?

Are you talking about the ER PPC? ER LL? PPC? LPL?

Those are very different than the other energy weapons. Do you think they are underpowered too? I absoulutly think they are. Too much heat.

[Roland]

thenightisdark, on 10 December 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Can I ask which energy weapons you are talking about?

Are you talking about the ER PPC? ER LL? PPC? LPL?

Those are very different than the other energy weapons. Do you think they are underpowered too? I absoulutly think they are. Too much heat.

The Standard PPC is not too much heat at all, actually.

The ER weapons, yes. I find them too hot to run.

The LPL is simply a trash weapon. It's got the range of a medium laser, but weighs far more, and is far hotter.

LL, ML, SL, and PPC's are perfectly fine in my opinion. The PPC could possibly use a buff, but I already find it a useful weapon. Its only real downside is its minimum range, not its heat.

But if you want to improve those weapons that we agree are weak, then those weapons need to be buffed individually. Don't just buff heat sinks, because then you'll end up effectively buffing the energy weapons which don't need it.

I'd be more in favor of simply boosting the stats of the ER weapons, and the LPL.

[Red squirrel]

Super Mono, on 10 December 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Despite the Jenner and Cicada medium laser boogey man being the main reason they don't want full 2.0 heatsinks in the first place.

You mean like my HBK-4P 9xMedLaser DHS build that can already alpha twice without overheating (90dmg in 6sec).
If DHS were boosted to 2xSHS this would give me an additional 11 heat sinks.....oh boy..... I could probably core an Atlas before overheating. (Actually I managed to core an untouched Atlas BT with two hits of this baby)

I call that the BOOGEY MAN - 4P


PS: On-topic I do use SHS. Mostly in Assaults since the crits are more important. Also my founders CAT gets more heat dissipation wihtout them. Also why use them on Gauss builds like the Ghetto Hollander(Raven 4X + Gauss Cannon)

Tl;dr
roughly:
<65 tons DHS
>65 tons SHS

Edited by Red squirrel, 10 December 2012 - 08:41 PM.