112 replies to this topic

[Terran123rd]

I see no need to use doubles. Really, I don't. My 3 ML/SRM4 Ankle-Biter Commando 1-B does more than good enough with 14 singles.

I just practice heat-control. Never overheated, even on Caustic.

[Rex Budman]

Crunk Prime, on 10 December 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Garth had this to say about DHS in the recent ask the dev thread.



He says full 2.0 DHS wont go in because it makes SHS obsolete(which is the point), and that nobody would use singles anymore. But now I want to ask, do any of you even use singles anymore? I know once I can afford it I slap doubles on my mechs. Engine heatsinks are already at 2.0, so I still just cant wrap my head around not making them all 2.0.

Even lore wise once DHS were out and common almost everybody switched over because singles suck.

I use them on all my mechs because my builds are quite tonnage heavy. In any instance where I can gain the tonnage for extended dissipation, I'd take it. It just seems like the right thing to do by your build.

[Roland]

Terran123rd, on 10 December 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

I see no need to use doubles. Really, I don't. My 3 ML/SRM4 Ankle-Biter Commando 1-B does more than good enough with 14 singles.

I just practice heat-control. Never overheated, even on Caustic.

Errrr...
That build would be dramatically better with double heat sinks, you realize that, right?

You could free up more tonnage, AND be more heat efficient.

[MuonNeutrino]

Terran123rd, on 10 December 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

I see no need to use doubles. Really, I don't. My 3 ML/SRM4 Ankle-Biter Commando 1-B does more than good enough with 14 singles.

I just practice heat-control. Never overheated, even on Caustic.

You may not *need* doubles, but you'd very certainly still benefit from them. 'Practicing heat control' is another way of saying 'slow your fire rate when your heat is high' - which means that increasing heat dissipation would improve your firepower since you could fire more often. And that's not even accounting for the 4 free tons you'd gain, which could go into anything from armor to ammo to a bigger engine.

Doubles may not always be mandatory, but they're still almost always better than singles.

[Splinters]

I'm not sure how this discussion is really helpful to the OP when accusations about play style are ridiculed, so I'll try and bring this back to the original question.

I run 90% DHS and 10% SHS (atlas builds + K2 Gaussapult). DHS really puts a crimp on mechs with limited criticals due to lots of weight options (Atlas/Awesome) for weaponry. I've flipped back and for about Endo, on Medium mechs, but on Heavy and above, single heat sinks are the consideration if I run out of crits on my weaponry.

-S

[De La Fresniere]

I'm pretty sure my CN9-AL does better with singles. Also, I'm not gonna equip every Light mech I own with doubles considering that single upgrade costs almost as much as the entire mech; and that's including whatever expensive garbage it came with, because DHS cost a lot more than the actual chassis.

I'd think DHS are best used with very large Engines. You get the most out of your 10 in-engine sinks and can avoid wasting too many critical slots by using engine-based heatsink slots.

[Vassago Rain]

Terran123rd, on 10 December 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

I see no need to use doubles. Really, I don't. My 3 ML/SRM4 Ankle-Biter Commando 1-B does more than good enough with 14 singles.

I just practice heat-control. Never overheated, even on Caustic.

This is a terrible build.

[Ricama]

I still use them on my Atlases, upgrading has been a low priority since it's not really worth the extra expense just to upgrade a couple of mpla to lla.

Edit: I'd also never use them on a Gaussapult if I ever rebuild it.

Edited by Ricama, 10 December 2012 - 11:48 PM.

[Roadbuster]

Depends on the build.
If I plan on keeping a mech and it requires more cooling and got free crit slots, I'll switch to DHS.
Builds with weapons that generate low heat but require alot of crit slots work better with SHS for me.

[Xenophontis]

Double are not always an upgrade. SHS are for people with lots of left over weight and DHS are for people with lots of left over slots. If you loaded up the 3 slots that a DHS took with SHS, the SHS are better. They just weight a lot more.

It depends on how your build is working out.

[SpiralRazor]

Crunk Prime, on 10 December 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Garth had this to say about DHS in the recent ask the dev thread.



He says full 2.0 DHS wont go in because it makes SHS obsolete(which is the point), and that nobody would use singles anymore. But now I want to ask, do any of you even use singles anymore? I know once I can afford it I slap doubles on my mechs. Engine heatsinks are already at 2.0, so I still just cant wrap my head around not making them all 2.0.

Even lore wise once DHS were out and common almost everybody switched over because singles suck.

Umm..yeah..its exactly the point.. DHS better then SHS??

SHOCKING Garth..simply...shocking...



Another ill conceived decision from PGI.

De La Fresniere, on 10 December 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure my CN9-AL does better with singles. Also, I'm not gonna equip every Light mech I own with doubles considering that single upgrade costs almost as much as the entire mech; and that's including whatever expensive garbage it came with, because DHS cost a lot more than the actual chassis.

I'd think DHS are best used with very large Engines. You get the most out of your 10 in-engine sinks and can avoid wasting too many critical slots by using engine-based heatsink slots.

This is it exactly people...it all comes down to how many of the 2.0 sinks you can get in your engine.

[Frenor]

Ok I'm confused. Why does everyone fall under the impression that heat sinks in the engine, with dhs count as true 2.0 heatsinks when they dont?

If you dont beleive me, take one mech non dhs and one without strip em down completly. For my own test I used a xl320 engine. Put one medium laser on each mech.

Medium laser on non dhs mech with said engine = 1.93

Medium laser on dhs mech with said engine = 2.29

Medium laser on non dhs mech with said engine PLUS 4 std hs= 2.29

Once more, where is everyone getting this thought that the engine heat sinks are doubled?

The only sinks that get doubled are the two that can go into the engine slots on the 300? and above engines.

You then get

Medium laser on dhs mech with said engine PLUS 2 dbl hs IN the engine compartment= 2.5
Medium Laser on dhs mech with said engine adding a PLUS 8 std hs (two in the engine, one in each lt/rt torso= 2.59

What I'm trying to say is that at no point do DHS double at all. its all 40% better than a single. In engine and out.

With that in mind, I only use double heat sinks when I'm starving on tonnage and drowning in crits or unless the math just works out better in the long run in the crit to tonnage ratio (IE ppc awesomes, missle boats, etc). PGI saying that no one would run singles with x2 doubles is a bit silly because.. well.. by 3057 "most" fully swapped over to dhs.

Edited by Frenor, 11 December 2012 - 12:51 AM.

[SpiralRazor]

Cause umm...the devs have said so, and its in the XML and engine and mounted HS are clearly different?

[Frenor]

SpiralRazor, on 11 December 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

Cause umm...the devs have said so, and its in the XML and engine and mounted HS are clearly different?

Then why is the he bar saying diffrent? All I'm trying to point out is that according to the UI were being given its 1.4 no matter where a dhs is stuffed. If dhs in the engine were being gagged as dhs are reported to be, the numbers shouldnt be popping up that its giving.

[Biruke]

Endo-steel is a better upgrade. I think DHS shouldn't be an upgrade at all. You, I think, should be able to use both types.

[MustrumRidcully]

Crunk Prime, on 10 December 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Garth had this to say about DHS in the recent ask the dev thread.



He says full 2.0 DHS wont go in because it makes SHS obsolete(which is the point), and that nobody would use singles anymore. But now I want to ask, do any of you even use singles anymore? I know once I can afford it I slap doubles on my mechs. Engine heatsinks are already at 2.0, so I still just cant wrap my head around not making them all 2.0.

Even lore wise once DHS were out and common almost everybody switched over because singles suck.

Nope, Double Heat Sinks is the first upgrade I take. The engine heat sinks alone are usually always worth it. That's about 10 tons and 10 crits you are not required to invest in heat sinks. If you run, say, a Dual Gauss mech and normally do fine without extra heat sinks, just add 2 medium lasers, and you can use these extra heat sinks already to improve your mech.

And if you ever find a build that needs single heat sinks to reach the neccessary dissipation because double heat sinks need too many crit slot - don't do it. Alter the build unless you can get by with DHS.

TruePoindexter, on 10 December 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Given the freak out over non-2.0 DHS what do you think would happen with messing with TT's layout model?

People freak out because PGI uses stock mech configs, and weakened DHS make DHS using stock mechs bad designs.

Throw out stock mechs, make mechs according to your new heat system and maybe even your crit system, and the problem is gone except for a very few diehards.

[SpiralRazor]

Biruke, on 11 December 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

Endo-steel is a better upgrade. I think DHS shouldn't be an upgrade at all. You, I think, should be able to use both types.

wut?? math fail.

[MustrumRidcully]

Roland, on 10 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

You don't really understand game balance, eh?

I mean, you understand that in your world, there is literally no reason to actually HAVE single heat sinks, right? That you could achieve the same effect by simply doubling the efficiency of single heat sinks, and removing double heat sinks entirely.

For game balance, there actually has to be utility in running single heat sink configs. As it stands, there are only a handful of situations where it's beneficial to run singles... If you run doubles on every one of your configs, then it becomes really hard for you to effectively argue that double heat sinks need to be buffed even further.

Well, +2 Swords in D&D are better than +1 Swords.

+1 Sword users fighting +2 Sword users is imbalanced.

+2 Sword users fighting +2 Sword users is balanced
+1 Sword users fighting +1 Sword uers is balanced.

Options :
1) Don't force people with low level gear to fight people with high level gear.
2) If you don't want high level gear, either pick a game setting that doesn't have low and high level gear (say, Real Men's Battletech 3025, instead of Powergamer's Wet Dream Clan Invasion Begin 3049+), or sit down with your game design team and really ensure that supposedly high level gear becomes a side grade, not an upgrade. Giving people 10 bonus engine heat sinks and 1.4 extra heat dissipation per 1 ton for 1,500,000 C-Bills isn't doing that.

Frenor, on 11 December 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

Then why is the he bar saying diffrent? All I'm trying to point out is that according to the UI were being given its 1.4 no matter where a dhs is stuffed. If dhs in the engine were being gagged as dhs are reported to be, the numbers shouldnt be popping up that its giving.

Bar is broken. It doesn't account for the actual rules.

[Spazamataz]

It really depends on the build you have... I have some ballistic bruisers that will never go DHS, and some of the lighter/ tighter mechs can't go to DHS because of component spaces

[Frenor]

MustrumRidcully, on 11 December 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

Bar is broken. It doesn't account for the actual rules.

How is the bar broken for almost .. hell lets say two months?