67 replies to this topic

[DivineEvil]

MustrumRidcully, on 11 December 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

Not really. As long as engine heat sinks are true Double Heat Sinks, there is nothing to tweak to inconvenience Medium Laser Jenners or Cicadas.

It would have helped if PGI would have thought about what the tech upgrades that would become available 3049 would do to a game. It should be obvious that double heat sinks will raise the pace of the game, allowing to field more weapons and thus more damage output for all mechs...

The would have been better off setting the game in 3025 or 3055.

Well try it yourself. You find that 2.0 engine heatsinks are not enough or those to run coldblood, and since external heatsinks gives 30% less efficiency, they are looking more like SHS in that concern, so DHS is considered as an upgrade to the Engine, rather than the overhaul of your entire internal structure to refit it for DHS.

If we would get 2.0 DHS back, AND Lighter mech would have their internal units (actuators, powerfeed etc) to occupy more relative critical space from those 12/8 slots available, that would make perfect sense, especially for Assaults, who would have an advantage of more critical slots that they can put DHS into after they've managed their heavy Energy weapons, that occupy much less space than Balistics.

RIght now, for Lights it is a freedom of choice to put heavier weapons and run on Engine's heatsinks to work as a Hit-and-Run unit, or to choose mediocre-light weapon array and use space for space and weight for "extra bonus" DHS to work as continous harassment unit. For Energy-focused Asaults/Heavies, as I've found out by experience (of playing with my layouts after each match), it is a choice between running SHS for barely acceptable heat management and running DHS, sticking them everywhere they can fit, getting the same barely acceptable heat management and leaving yourself with several tons of free weight that is nowhere to use for. Or running with lighter Energy weapons and being a laugh for Ballistic-focused variants.

Quote

THIS (IMO) is the real reason we'll never get to test true DHSs, or a lot of things.

It is your IMO, and it is wrong. SO far PGI really havent answered any issues, that our Community pointing out for MONTHS. In-game bugs, netcode, performance issues, item descriptions, user interface, mechlab functionality, secondary weapons balance (MG, flamer), and aforementioned heat management are left untouched for a long, lon time, while all we're getting to test is money consuming content, disbalanced or useless equipment, counter-universe fancy visual crap and empty promises without a date. So I see a lot more reasons for Community to get angry at devs, than for devs to ignore the community, even though I personally despice immature feedback. I try my hard to keep myself at bay, but considering that all the problems well known timing back to CLosed Beta ar still unresolved, which makes people think, that all PGI have is content delivery and marketing segments, and nobody to fix bugs, work on improving engine' performance and appropriately criticize in-game balance and listen to the community to filter the actual beta-testing feedback out of it, working on their own accord alone.

[Taemien]

The reason we can't have 2.0 DHS is because we'd have 6 Medium Pulse Laser Jenners that could alpha continuously. Simply increasing the heat of lasers/energy weapons would penalize single heatsink users. You would have to use DHS to use energy weapons at all and then you'd only be able to fit energy weapons.

1.4 DHS facilitates mixed weapon loadouts and hinders boating.

[shabowie]

Quote

Will all the of screaming and gnashing of teeth over the issue as it stands right now, what do you think this community would do if the Devs DID give it to us to TEST for a few weeks, then supply that the data supports what they first thought and that 2.0 sinks have trivialized the heat system, and so must be removed?

Trivialize the heat system? There are already no consequences for carrying massive amounts of waste heat. The heat system is trivialized by design and it is so trivial to carry waste heat they give SHS and DHS extremely low values for heat dissipation to cap damage output.

A big bar that shuts you down for a couple seconds if you fill it all the way up is not a complex and interesting system that needs to be preserved.

They should have made a much flatter heat capacity with serious and increasing consequences for carrying waste heat from the beginning, and then given people ability to dissipate way more heat through heatsinks.

Taemien, on 11 December 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

The reason we can't have 2.0 DHS is because we'd have 6 Medium Pulse Laser Jenners that could alpha continuously.

BS. Just getting 6 mpl on a Jenner is a major sacrifice to one or more of cooling/armor/speed.

A picture emerges of a mech that can't alpha more than twice without overheating OR is a slow pig of a light mech with weak armor and short range that other light mechs with medium lasers can outmaneuver and/or standoff with regular medium lasers and destroy from range.

Edited by shabowie, 11 December 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Taemien, on 11 December 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

The reason we can't have 2.0 DHS is because we'd have 6 Medium Pulse Laser Jenners that could alpha continuously. Simply increasing the heat of lasers/energy weapons would penalize single heatsink users. You would have to use DHS to use energy weapons at all and then you'd only be able to fit energy weapons.

1.4 DHS facilitates mixed weapon loadouts and hinders boating.

And this is bad why? I cannot fire 4 medium lasers (12-16 heat) without over heating using 28-32 Heatsinks Per turn. What's wrong with having 6 Pulse Meds on a Jenner? I have 6 Meds on a Jenner as it is. I'm not competeing I'm trying to kill every last one of you, before you kill me. I'm not worried about winning, I just wanna kill. If I wanted Competition I'd play EA Sports Hockey!

[FiveDigits]

BigJim, on 11 December 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

[...] I specialise in fast, hot builds, and I don't particularly care about Awesomes, nor arguing about the heat system.
I know what works, and when you get below 1.25, maybe 1.2 at a push, a Jenner/Cicada type laser-mech isn't worth taking to the fight, because you'll get out-sustained by the mech who can keep chipping away at your legs. [...]

I hope you are aware that the heat efficiency value displayed in the mechlab currently uses the 1.4 dissipation rate for all DHS in the mech. This value is of no use when discussing heat as it works right now.

Taemien, on 11 December 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

The reason we can't have 2.0 DHS is because we'd have 6 Medium Pulse Laser Jenners that could alpha continuously. Simply increasing the heat of lasers/energy weapons would penalize single heatsink users. You would have to use DHS to use energy weapons at all and then you'd only be able to fit energy weapons.

1.4 DHS facilitates mixed weapon loadouts and hinders boating.

Did you even read any of the posts, whole threads even, that clearly illustrate that this is just not true? Lights factually use 2.0 DHS ...

[Bishop Steiner]

shabowie, on 11 December 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

Trivialize the heat system? There are already no consequences for carrying massive amounts of waste heat. The heat system is trivialized by design and it is so trivial to carry waste heat they give SHS and DHS extremely low values for heat dissipation to cap damage output.

A big bar that shuts you down for a couple seconds if you fill it all the way up is not a complex and interesting system that needs to be preserved.

They should have made a much flatter heat capacity with serious and increasing consequences for carrying waste heat from the beginning, and then given people ability to dissipate way more heat through heatsinks.



BS. Just getting 6 mpl on a Jenner is a major sacrifice to one or more of cooling/armor/speed.

A picture emerges of a mech that can't alpha more than twice without overheating OR is a slow pig of a light mech with weak armor and short range that other mechs with medium lasers can outmaneuver and/or standoff with regular medium lasers and destroy from range.

what, did they remove ammo explosions from waste heat? I haven't run my mechs hot in some time, but I remember more than a few ammo cook offs in Caustic. Seems like a heat side effect to me. (I even had an awesome with no ammo blow itself up once, but I have not been able to replicate that)

[shabowie]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 December 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

what, did they remove ammo explosions from waste heat? I haven't run my mechs hot in some time, but I remember more than a few ammo cook offs in Caustic. Seems like a heat side effect to me. (I even had an awesome with no ammo blow itself up once, but I have not been able to replicate that)

I've only ever had something bad happen when I override the shutdown and stay above 100% as a result.

[BigJim]

FiveDigits, on 11 December 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

I hope you are aware that the heat efficiency value displayed in the mechlab currently uses the 1.4 dissipation rate for all DHS in the mech. This value is of no use when discussing heat as it works right now.

Yeah I'm aware that the figure isn't quite true, but since it's equally "wrong" for all mechs I still use it, as a way to compare one build to another - But strictly speaking yes, I know you're right that the displayed H/Eff isn't the true value.

[Taemien]

shabowie, on 11 December 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

BS. Just getting 6 mpl on a Jenner is a major sacrifice to one or more of cooling/armor/speed.

A picture emerges of a mech that can't alpha more than twice without overheating OR is a slow pig of a light mech with weak armor and short range that other mechs with medium lasers can outmaneuver and/or standoff with regular medium lasers and destroy from range.

Jenner MPL LaserBoat
Mass: 35 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/E-F-E
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 5,613,525 C-Bills
Battle Value: 934
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 245 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 75.6 km/h
Maximum Speed: 118.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    6  Medium Pulse Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment		   Type						 Rating				   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel				    58 points			    2.00
    Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 CT, 2 LT, 3 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine:			 XL Fusion Engine			 245					   6.00
    Walking MP: 7
    Running MP: 11
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:		 Double Heat Sink			 14(28)				    4.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 3 RT
Gyro:			   Standard											   3.00
Cockpit:		    Standard											   3.00
    Actuators:	  L: SH+UA    R: SH+UA
Armor:			  Standard Armor			   AV -  80				  5.00
													  Internal	   Armor	 
													  Structure	  Factor	
											    Head	 3		    9		
									    Center Torso	 11		   12	   
								 Center Torso (rear)				  3		
										   L/R Torso	 8		    10	   
								    L/R Torso (rear)				  2		
											 L/R Arm	 6		    7		
											 L/R Leg	 8		    9		
================================================================================
Equipment								 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Medium Pulse Lasers					    RA	    12	    3		 6.00
3 Medium Pulse Lasers					    LA	    12	    3		 6.00
										    Free Critical Slots: 10
BattleForce Statistics
MV	  S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:	  3    Points: 9
7		  4	   4	   0	   0	  1	 0   Structure:  2
Special Abilities: ENE, SRCH, ES, SOA

Major sacrifice? I've got one ton MORE armor then a typical JR7-D. And the only thing downgraded was the loss of Jump Jets. XL engine doesn't create a vulnerability issue since most shots hit the center. Also, make sure to double the armor values you see above, those are Table-Top stats. We get 32 points per ton in MWO, not 16.

When my group heard of DHS coming, we immediately came up with this Jenner config with 6 MPL. You have enough heatsinks to fire continuously and run at 118.8kph. With 36 damage per alpha, you're going to core another light/medium in 2-3 shots.

PGI already tested this, they found it was more destructive to game play than it would be to a benefit it at all. If you all want to boat, you can download MechWarrior 4 for free. You even get third person view that allows you to glitch damage through hilltops. I suggest playing that instead.

The way DHS work in MWO is they aren't always superior to SHS and that is a good thing. It should be a conscious choice to use one or the other, not simply use DHS because they are better. And being that I have lasers grouped on most of my configurations (including ER Large Lasers) and they aren't hurt by 1.4 DHS, I'd say its balanced. I still see lasers in the field all the time as well.

Its safe to say, this is a dead horse topic.

[shabowie]

BigJim, on 11 December 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

Yeah I'm aware that the figure isn't quite true, but since it's equally "wrong" for all mechs I still use it, as a way to compare one build to another - But strictly speaking yes, I know you're right that the displayed H/Eff isn't the true value.

It isn't equally wrong for all mechs. Do you know why? LOL!

[Khobai]

Quote

1.4 DHS facilitates mixed weapon loadouts and hinders boating.

No. All it does is make stock mechs useless and weakens assault mechs since they get no real benefit out of adding more DHS. What facilitates mixed weapon loadouts is NOT having mechs with hardpoints that promote boating. The mechs that can boat weapons have always been the problem mechs.

What we need is 2.0 DHS and 1.4 SHS (with 1.4 SHS stock mechs would be half-decent and SHS would still have a purpose in the game). Right now, the biggest problem with the heat system is that the Stock mechs are completely unusable, so buffing SHS is the obvious solution, since most stock mechs have SHS. Buffing heatsinks would also go a long way towards fixing what's wrong with large energy weapons like PPCs (heat).

Edited by Khobai, 11 December 2012 - 05:59 AM.

[Congzilla]

My 5x LL Cataphract 1X and 9x ML Hunch 4P disagree with this.

[shabowie]

Taemien, on 11 December 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

Major sacrifice?

Yeah. Your build is very slow and very under armored compared to other fully customized Jenners who will be max armor and speed. Furthermore you can't alpha continuously with that mech, with or without true DHS. Quick guesstimating shows you right on the verge of shutting down or actually shut down after 3 alphas with true DHS. Obviously much worse with what we have now.

So much for alpha striking all day and so much for your boogeyman build.

6 medium laser Jenner f is better than your build hands down.

Edited by shabowie, 11 December 2012 - 06:13 AM.

[Asmosis]

2.0 heat sinks wouldnt make much difference outside of a 400 engine anyway. 1.4 is fine.

There needs to be a point at which SHS are still favorable for some builds. putting DHS to 2.0 eliminates that, so thats the real reason we dont have them. not because they will make laser boats 300% more effective.

Edited by Asmosis, 11 December 2012 - 06:02 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

BigJim, on 11 December 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

The trial Awesome 9M is a lot of fun to play, but I admit it's not really a terror on the battlefield.
Then again, 3x PPCs is what - 30 damage? Average-build Hunchies put out more than that, and it's exactly the same DMG as the above Cicada, only in a much less manoeuvrable, and easier to hit package.

It never was "Awesome" to begin with imho.


However this is dragging off the point - I'm not particularly interested in making bad table-top nostalgia builds work (no matter how you argue the heat system, a 30-alpha from an 80T mech is just bad, and should stay in TT where paintjobs and dice are king).

Well, in the table top, it was pretty awesome, because it was a lot of damage with a great range. In the Table Top, a Hunchback at 270m with 8 Medium Lasers would probably have missed half the shots due to the high hit difficulty to hit at your maximum range, while most if not all of the PPC shots would have been hits.

That's all things that are just lost in translation and basically neccessitate revamping weapon stats from the table top to restore balance between weapons.
Basically, in translating from TT to MW:O - Either all short range deal too much damage, or all long range weapons deal too little. And that is in addition to the heat problems we have.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 11 December 2012 - 06:17 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

2.0 heat sinks wouldnt make much difference outside of a 400 engine anyway. 1.4 is fine.

I disagree. The problem with 1.4 DHS is that assault mechs that mount DHS heatsinks outside the engine arnt getting a benefit appropriate to the of number crit slots being used up. Three crit slots for 1.4 dissipation is AWFUL for an assault mech. So either DHS need to be buffed to 2.0 or they should only take up two crit slots.

Edited by Khobai, 11 December 2012 - 06:16 AM.

[Bloody Moon]

Asmosis, on 11 December 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

2.0 heat sinks wouldnt make much difference outside of a 400 engine anyway. 1.4 is fine.

Tell that to the Devs as they went OMG NO on 2.0 sinks 'cos they think it makes a difference!

Asmosis, on 11 December 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

There needs to be a point at which SHS are still favorable for some builds. putting DHS to 2.0 eliminates that, so thats the real reason we dont have them. not because they will make laser boats 300% more effective.

If we want to make SHS builds viable then why can't we buff SHS? Stock configs could use a bit of love anyway.

Tell me how 6 more effective heatsinks will increase my "laserboat" effectiveness by 300% when i already have 34...

[Joseph Mallan]

1.4 would be fine for double sinks if and ONLY if sinks were 0.7. See then a double sink would actually be double the efficiency of a single sink.

Oh and Garth...
Dual Definition is:

Quote

1a: of grammatical number denoting reference to two

2a: consisting of two parts or elements or having two like parts double

just so we are sure I am not trying to use TT as my reference.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 December 2012 - 06:25 AM.

[FiveDigits]

Taemien, on 11 December 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

[...] When my group heard of DHS coming, we immediately came up with this Jenner config with 6 MPL. You have enough heatsinks to fire continuously and run at 118.8kph. With 36 damage per alpha, you're going to core another light/medium in 2-3 shots.

PGI already tested this, they found it was more destructive to game play than it would be to a benefit it at all. If you all want to boat, you can download MechWarrior 4 for free. You even get third person view that allows you to glitch damage through hilltops. I suggest playing that instead.[...]

This mech build creates 30 heat per alpha (6 * 5.0). The build has 9 DHS in the engine (XL 245) and 5 external DHS. With the current "double" heat sink implementation this build has

9 * 0.2 + 5 * 0.14 = 1.8 + 0.7 = 2.5 HPS

disspation. It's heat threshhold (before shutdown) is

30 {base} + 25 {18 + 7} = 55

A true DHS implementation would bring this mech's dissipation up to

14 * 0.2 = 2.8

and the threshhold to

30 {base} + 28 = 58

Now lets fire those 6 MPLAS (while standing still, on a heat neutral planet), shall we?

First, current mixed implementation (2.5 HPS, 55 thresshold):

T+0s:
0 --> 30/55
T+3s:
30 - 3 * 2.5 = 30 - 7.5 =  22.5 / 55 --> 52.5 / 55
T+6s:
52.5 - 7.5 = 45 / 55 --> 75 / 55

Overheat shutdown after the third alpha.

Now we do the same with real Double Heat Sinks (2.8 HPS, 58 thresshold):

T+0s:
0 --> 30 / 58
T+3s:
30 - 3 * 2.8 = 30 - 8.4 =  21.6 / 58 --> 51.6 / 58
T+6s:
51.6 - 8.4 = 43.2/58 --> 73.2 / 58

Overheat shutdown after the third alpha.

It is a bad build that shoots three alphas and then dies while shut down. A 2.0 DHS implementation doesn't change anything on this mech.
Bogeyman.
Next.

[Nillavi]

Seriously guys, 2.0 DHS already exists. Internal engine heat sinks are already at 2.0 once you purchase the upgrade for it, and only heat sinks outside the engine are 1.4 (this includes slotted heat sinks).

So, no, your Jenner wouldn't see much benefit at all from externals being converted to 2.0 because you use barely any externals to begin with.