416 replies to this topic

[Particle Man]

Lonestar1771, on 11 December 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

You forgot where the white knight comes in acting like a douche and insults everyone.

i thought i covered that with my sarcasm...

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

skamage, on 11 December 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

And you forgot that it's necessary for us to whine because it's feedback

thats actually true. Look at what they keep doing to LRMs. The louder the whine the more the overreaction/kneejerk from the devs

[Kaijin]

Garth Erlam, on 11 December 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

Ohh philosophic debate; ok, I have one!

If you walk into a restaurant when it's closed, and give the waiter 2 bucks for a coffee, is the store open?

Ooooh - allegory; ok, I have one!

I had a friend who opened a cafe. I often dropped in to visit, and usually had a snack and a coffee or some other beverage. Ordered and paid for. Occasionally he'd be working on a new creation, and want my input. He'd bring it to me, I'd taste it, we'd discuss it. These things were not added to my bill though. I hadn't asked for them - He wanted me to test them - Seemed fair. Other times I'd drop in on him at closing time. I might help out cleaning the place up or moving the furniture around. There'd be some other blokes around. We'd have a few drinks and a smoke. No bill was presented - The place was closed. Still, we'd all chip in a fiver each or so to cover costs. We were all interested in the place being successful. And it was. Some of us even wound up working there once he was bringing in enough to add more staff.

That was a true story.

[MustrumRidcully]

soarra, on 11 December 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

thye are not forcing you to buy anything.

So what? Does that mean that cars are in Beta? I am not forced to buy the new Volkswagen Golf, after all, so I guess that means its beta and just some people decide to spend money on a Beta, and some don't.

But I don't really care if it is Beta or not. THat doesn't really change my critique. Bugs don't become any less of a bug if your game is in Beta. They still need to be fixed. And if they affect someone's abiltiy to test the game, it's a serious bug, just as it would be a serious bug when a paying customer was inable to play the game.

An unbalanced game is still unbalanced, even when it's in Beta, and it's either my right as a customer or my duty as a tester to report about it.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 12 December 2012 - 02:16 AM.

[FunkyFritter]

Call it whatever you want, the game is available to the public and needs to be presentable if the playerbase is going to grow.

[MustrumRidcully]

Windies, on 11 December 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

That's how a lot of us "whiners" have felt since the end of closed beta. It just seems like more and more of the people who were ardently defending PGI are turning to the dark side.

It's generally not an uncommon sight, in my experience. But of course, it's always just anecdotical data - some people just get fed up with something even if objectively speaking, it may be good. I don't look so favorably on MW:O, but I could still be wrong.

FunkyFritter, on 12 December 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

Call it whatever you want, the game is available to the public and needs to be presentable if the playerbase is going to grow.

I think that is the key thing. Customers have a lot of options these days. Sure, ther emay be only one Mechwarrior game out here right now, but that doesn't mean that some customers could just as well play some new RTS, or a Batman game, or a sports management simulation, or whatever. Mechwarrior is cool, but so are a lot of other things. If this Mechwarrior game doesn't look good when it becomes available to play, there is no guarantee people come back. They will have already put it in the category of "probably-not-good" games and move on, never to return.

Going Open Beta can be risky, you better be sure about your game. Or desperate and hoping for a quick buck to fund further development, and hope that the beta signs will blunt the negative feedback a bit. Good luck with that. Customers can be a harsh mistress.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 12 December 2012 - 02:24 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

soarra, on 11 December 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

thye are not forcing you to buy anything.

No free to play game really "forces" you to buy anything.

As such many F2P games are still considered "Beta's" as they are ever evolving.

In this day and age, with F2P games, "Open Beta" equates to release if they have opened up the "optional cash items" area of the game and are accepting people's money for "Premium time"

[Kmieciu]

Elandyll, on 11 December 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Granted, a small vocal minority complains a tad too much and at times for silly reasons, but sometimes the reactions of the PGI apologists make me think of the "Battered Spouse Syndrome":

- PGI knows better than we do, they work for the good of our game (God syndrome)
- PGI will make things better, they will change the game for the better, in spite of past offenses. We have to be patient (irrational hopes of change)
- If something's wrong with the game, it's probably our fault (the complainers). We don't understand & we complain too much (self blame)
- In spite of the evidence of problems, everything is awesome, and I tell everyone I'm enjoying everything all the time. Saying it will make it true (denial of problem).
- Change will come, but we have to be happy with what we have. It could be so much worse (complacency).
- Hey, we have something at least, we used to have nothing (denial of options).

Obviously it is nothing like the real thing, it just makes me think of it

"It's Beta!" sounds like the summary of all that to me, tbh.

For me, with no more wipes & Premium ticker started = as close to retail as we will ever be. The sale of seasonal fluff items on top of the rest only adds to the conclusion frankly.

[Apoc1138]

MustrumRidcully, on 12 December 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

So what? Does that mean that cars are in Beta? I am not forced to buy the new Volkswagen Golf, after all, so I guess that means its beta and just some people decide to spend money on a Beta, and some don't.

But I don't really care if it is Beta or not. THat doesn't really change my critique. Bugs don't become any less of a bug if your game is in Beta. They still need to be fixed. And if they affect someone's abiltiy to test the game, it's a serious bug, just as it would be a serious bug when a paying customer was inable to play the game.

An unbalanced game is still unbalanced, even when it's in Beta, and it's either my right as a customer or my duty as a tester to report about it.

Your comparison has a major flaw... you aren't forced to buy a Golf... but they don't give you one to drive around in for free either

MWO is free to play, if you want chrome pedals and carbon fibre edged floor mats then those are extra, but the soon to be released based on your help and feedback Golf is free to drive as much as you want and you don't even need to pay for the petrol

as an aside, most people tend not to have a massive issue with your posts as they tend to be well thought out and have at least SOME basis to them and you also happily admit that you don't quite have all the info, it's the massive whinefests that are annoying

reporting a bug is a valid and worthwhile thing to do, right up to the point where the devs say "we know about this bug and are working on it"... after that it's just whining

Edited by Apoc1138, 12 December 2012 - 04:27 AM.

[Sp4wNers]

Dear OP. I have played many beta games. I have played BF3 closed beta and currently playing Hawken (closed beta end). And even these two games are more polished than MWO. Yeah i know it's better to add some hula girls to the game, which are not even for c-bill but for MCs and this is bull***t. Better to add those stupid bubbleheads than polish game itself more.

[MustrumRidcully]

Apoc1138, on 12 December 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

Your comparison has a major flaw... you aren't forced to buy a Golf... but they don't give you one to drive around in for free either

Ah, but I live in a world where other people may drive this golf. Maybe my comparison was flawed indeed. Not the Golf is Beta - the world is Beta!

Quote

as an aside, most people tend not to have a massive issue with your posts as they tend to be well thought out and have at least SOME basis to them and you also happily admit that you don't quite have all the info, it's the massive whinefests that are annoying

reporting a bug is a valid and worthwhile thing to do, right up to the point where the devs say "we know about this bug and are working on it"... after that it's just whining

I never really have the feeling unfortunately that this is true on topics I care about. Just as an example:
1) On the Balance "Front":
They still haven't admitted the fundamental flaw of their way of taking table top stats and configs, putting it in a real time game, and then adjusting weapon fire rates without adjusting heat dissipation rates or heat generation rates to compensate.
2) I have yet to see any reaction to the people's negative response to customization prices.

And on other topics i may have seen something like "We will be doing something" - but the something is undefined and I have no idea that they know what they are doing and that what they are doing will work. And if VW would show the public a prototype of a new car that tends to catch fire* or occassionaly jump 3 ft in the air for no reason or whatever we can compare CTDs and lag shields too, even if it was a prototype that you only optionally could decide to acquire a test drive in, the public would question either their engineering abilities or their marketing abilities, and quite possibly both.


*) Though isn't there actually an Indian car that is prone to doing this?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 12 December 2012 - 05:08 AM.

[Stone Wall]

Read up what Beta is:

http://en.wikipedia....life_cycle#Beta

sounds like MWO is in Beta to me.

Edited by Stone Wall, 12 December 2012 - 05:21 AM.

[IG 88]

[Purlana]

Stone Wall, on 12 December 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

Read up what Beta is:

http://en.wikipedia....life_cycle#Beta

sounds like MWO is in Beta to me.

"They are usually customers or prospective customers of the organization that develops the software, willing to test the software without charge, often receiving the final software free of charge or for a reduced price. Beta version software is often useful for demonstrations and previews within an organization and to prospective customers."

Dude, they need to let me "test" the Muromets and custom paints free of charge! Why do I need to pay to test these "features"?!

Edited by Purlana, 12 December 2012 - 05:46 AM.

[PurpleNinja]

Clear browser cache, then reload the page.

Edited by PurpleNinja, 12 December 2012 - 06:07 AM.

[Propnut]

Garth Erlam, on 11 December 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

Ohh philosophic debate; ok, I have one!

If you walk into a restaurant when it's closed, and give the waiter 2 bucks for a coffee, is the store open?

Yes, especially if the sign on the door says "Open", regardless of the word printed behind it. As in...Open, buy stuff, just don't expect to be able to sit down...etc.

[PurpleNinja]

Garth Erlam, on 11 December 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

Ohh philosophic debate; ok, I have one!
If you walk into a restaurant when it's closed, and give the waiter 2 bucks for a coffee, is the store open?

That's the founders program.

Currently open beta is more like putting a banner informing of the new intern cooker, the food isn't good enough yet, but you're free to seat and order.

[Apoc1138]

MustrumRidcully, on 12 December 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

Ah, but I live in a world where other people may drive this golf. Maybe my comparison was flawed indeed. Not the Golf is Beta - the world is Beta!

I never really have the feeling unfortunately that this is true on topics I care about. Just as an example:
1) On the Balance "Front":
They still haven't admitted the fundamental flaw of their way of taking table top stats and configs, putting it in a real time game, and then adjusting weapon fire rates without adjusting heat dissipation rates or heat generation rates to compensate.
2) I have yet to see any reaction to the people's negative response to customization prices.

And on other topics i may have seen something like "We will be doing something" - but the something is undefined and I have no idea that they know what they are doing and that what they are doing will work. And if VW would show the public a prototype of a new car that tends to catch fire* or occassionaly jump 3 ft in the air for no reason or whatever we can compare CTDs and lag shields too, even if it was a prototype that you only optionally could decide to acquire a test drive in, the public would question either their engineering abilities or their marketing abilities, and quite possibly both.

okay, when you keep comparing cars to software, eventually you are going to get to this comparison of a prototype car that kills you... how many people have actually physically died because of an MWO bug? go on, how many? oh yeah, that's right, none

at best, the bugs in MWO are comparable to a radio that won't go to the station you want or a satnav that keeps turning itself off... annoying yes... Fatal? Ah you kidding me? seriously?

they are adjusting heat, they adjusted the heat on AC/20's down by one, they have mentioned reducing heat on (ER)PPC's and ERLL's by "alot"... they might not have spoken to you personally and directly on the subject, but why should they?

[MustrumRidcully]

Apoc1138, on 12 December 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

okay, when you keep comparing cars to software, eventually you are going to get to this comparison of a prototype car that kills you... how many people have actually physically died because of an MWO bug? go on, how many? oh yeah, that's right, none

at best, the bugs in MWO are comparable to a radio that won't go to the station you want or a satnav that keeps turning itself off... annoying yes... Fatal? Ah you kidding me? seriously?

It's an analogy. For a computer game, a random crash to desktop is probably along the lines of something like a severely increased injury or crash risk in a car. Don't make the mistake of assuming that means it has the same severity on an absolute scale. If it was, I would also suggesting that people would sue PGI for letting them play a game that crashes to desktop.
Though I think I still use the analogy wrong. I think one of the key things about Mechwarior ONline is that it's supposed to be an online PvP game. Netcode matters a lot for such a game. About as much as being able to drive on a street means to a car. It'S such a fundamental thing that just must work right.

But let's say we're comparing to a radio. I think a radio that randomly turns itself off is a not a good piece of engineering, and if a company delivers shows something to the public (and eve allows people to spend some money for it) will open itself up to some ridicule and critique.

Quote

they are adjusting heat, they adjusted the heat on AC/20's down by one, they have mentioned reducing heat on (ER)PPC's and ERLL's by "alot"... they might not have spoken to you personally and directly on the subject, but why should they?

Well, Math. But ignoring that (and I am fine with that, I am hardly perfect. I write software for a living and it also contains bugs, so I am hardly perfect). But they have said a lot of things, and too little of it has manifested itself so far. Considering that they can hotfix the jam rate of UACs or fix the accidental jams on guns that shouldn't jam rapidly, but cannot solve this balance problem inhow many months is just weird. But it may be a prioritization things - overpowered stuff needs to be dealt with quickly, underpowered stuff - the worst thing is that some player cries itself to sleep because his favourite weapon sucks and no one uses it. Overpowered weapons will skew the balance and gameplay rapidly, by comparison.

[Apoc1138]

MustrumRidcully, on 12 December 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

But let's say we're comparing to a radio. I think a radio that randomly turns itself off is a not a good piece of engineering, and if a company delivers shows something to the public (and eve allows people to spend some money for it) will open itself up to some ridicule and critique.

the analogy completely falls down though when you start comparing a fatality causing car to a piece of software that you occasionally have to shutdown and re-start, these two things are in no way comparable or similar

and how about that volvo that is supposed to have crash avoidance hardware/software... that they did show to the general public... and it crashed straight in to the back of truck
or my car that is made in a hot country so when they send it to the UK it's a 50/50 chance that at the first sign of <20C temperatures the rear lights completely fog up and can't be seen by other road users
or...

car companies DO relase utter trash, all the time, and most of the time they do nothing to fix it either unless it results in massive law suits... at least PGI ARE saying that they intend on fixing most of these things, even if some things they don't agree with you actually are that much of a problem

Edited by Apoc1138, 12 December 2012 - 08:47 AM.