114 replies to this topic

[Col Forbin]

Title says it all. ECM made LRMs much less viable....

[Gulinborsti]

They still do the same damage as before the ECM release and I think almost everybody agreed that they are fairly balanced.

The only thing that changed is that you can't launch LRMs on anybody and all the time and picking targets has become more important. And you might want to carry some backup weapon system in case the enemy spams ECM mechs.

But once you find targets without ECM - there is always an opportunity - LRMs are still fine and dangerous support weapon.

[Legionar20]

+1 above me

[Buckminster]

Wait until the "ooh shiny ECM!" rush dies down before you call for any sort of rebalancing. Right now ECM is all over the place because people are trying it out, but that should peter out over the next couple weeks.

[Col Forbin]

Buckminster, on 05 December 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Wait until the "ooh shiny ECM!" rush dies down before you call for any sort of rebalancing. Right now ECM is all over the place because people are trying it out, but that should peter out over the next couple weeks.

I agree... but I will bet money that any 8-man group will have 2-3 ECM for the remaining lifetime of this game...

[Mason2501]

I've played over two dozen eight man matches. Yes it is a whole different game. As people get over the newest of ECM, and as PGI adds more Mechs with ECM, the matches and Mechs will change up.

One thing for sure, the easy days of near stillest Streak and LRM boats are done. Serious teamwork between Mechs with ECM & TAG are required for those weapons to be at all useful. So it is much easier to hop into a AC/Guass/Energy brawler builds for matches. Stick together and focus fire under the cover of ECM. Still as that made tougher as with all the ECM up, nobody can target. So just calling target Bravo doesn't work cause more then half the time the ECM is blocking lock ons. So firing lines and IDing with details in now required. IE "everyone target Bravo Red Atlas advancing at the arch."

Not to say Streaks or LRMs are complete useless. They are not a solo get kills weapon. It's much teamwork to be used. Weather that's a missile boat moving with two to three lights who then counter jam ECM, or every mech in the lance has TAG and LRM fights are 250m to 500m. ranges. Means instead of having barely moving loaded down missile boats that never cease firing. The mech will have to be better movers, with less rounds so those shots will have to count, and have some more used backup weapons. Oh no, those streak cats may have to use some SRM and pilot have some skill. Oh those SRM6 boats now back to being deadly!

So far I'm loving it. Tactics make a great reason to have many mechs, and many builds looking towards role lance warfare.
Also thank PGI for keeping 2-4 man groups with pugs. Those matches come faster less thinking, better for making cash and trying out builds, and working on pilot skills. Eight man groups mean you gotta bring your best mech, with best gear, skills, and work with the whole group for tactics and play style.

[Col Forbin]

Mason2501, on 05 December 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

I've played over two dozen eight man matches. Yes it is a whole different game. As people get over the newest of ECM, and as PGI adds more Mechs with ECM, the matches and Mechs will change up.

One thing for sure, the easy days of near stillest Streak and LRM boats are done. Serious teamwork between Mechs with ECM & TAG are required for those weapons to be at all useful. So it is much easier to hop into a AC/Guass/Energy brawler builds for matches. Stick together and focus fire under the cover of ECM. Still as that made tougher as with all the ECM up, nobody can target. So just calling target Bravo doesn't work cause more then half the time the ECM is blocking lock ons. So firing lines and IDing with details in now required. IE "everyone target Bravo Red Atlas advancing at the arch."

Not to say Streaks or LRMs are complete useless. They are not a solo get kills weapon. It's much teamwork to be used. Weather that's a missile boat moving with two to three lights who then counter jam ECM, or every mech in the lance has TAG and LRM fights are 250m to 500m. ranges. Means instead of having barely moving loaded down missile boats that never cease firing. The mech will have to be better movers, with less rounds so those shots will have to count, and have some more used backup weapons. Oh no, those streak cats may have to use some SRM and pilot have some skill. Oh those SRM6 boats now back to being deadly!

So far I'm loving it. Tactics make a great reason to have many mechs, and many builds looking towards role lance warfare.
Also thank PGI for keeping 2-4 man groups with pugs. Those matches come faster less thinking, better for making cash and trying out builds, and working on pilot skills. Eight man groups mean you gotta bring your best mech, with best gear, skills, and work with the whole group for tactics and play style.

I don't mind the teamwork required... I enjoy it. My point is that LRMs were nerfed to account for massive LRM spam occurring pre-ECM. The LRM spam is not happening anymore. I think we can all agree that that ECM provides another large nerf to their usefullness...

I do have an Awesome with LRM 30... so I wouldn't call myself a "boater." I'm primarily a Jenner pilot anyways....

[LynxFury]

One of my LRM boating team mates was doing plenty of killing and having to pick shots to conserve ammo last night. The only difference is it needs more team work to select the right targets.

[Col Forbin]

LynxFury, on 05 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

One of my LRM boating team mates was doing plenty of killing and having to pick shots to conserve ammo last night. The only difference is it needs more team work to select the right targets.

How many LRMs was he packing?

[Gulinborsti]

Before you read this: This post was an experiment to give a little judgement of the current state of LRM vs ECM. Please no e-peen interpretaions or stuff like this, the statistics are actually nothing to brag about.

Inspired by this thread I pulled out my "jack of all trades" Cat C4:

2 x LRM15 (Artemis, 4 tons)
2 x STREAK (2 tons)
2 x ML
BAP, AMS, sensor range module

This is a fairly easy to play long range loadout with some potential to brawl on counter pesky lights.

I played 5 PUG games in a row to find out if it is stil viable. I am aware that 5 games statistically and by the random nature of PUG games don't prove anything, still the results fit perfectly in my overall past experience. The matches were on 5 different maps which was pure luck.

#1: Won / Dead / Dmg: 247 / Exp: 418 / Kills: 0 / Map: River City
#2: Won / Alive / Dmg: 343 / Exp: 837 / Kills: 2 / Map: Forest Colony (Frozen)
#3: Won / Alive / Dmg: 615 / Exp: 1007 / Kills: 4 / Map: Frozen City
#4: Lost / Dead / Dmg: 209 / Exp: 278 / Kills: 1 / Map: Caustic Valley
#5: Lost / Dead / Dmg: 545 / Exp: 324 / Kills: 1 / Map: Forest Colony

In games #4 and #5 we faced strong and well organised opponents that used ECM, and used it quite well. These games were a bit tricky in this mech and in the end we got wasted. Still I got my share of kills and some exp. The rest was average groups on both sides (with one exceptional Cataphract on our side in game #1 where he killed 6 in total and who faced 1:4 odds in the end, killing them all).

However, I think this is an acceptable overall result for a mainly LRM based mech after the introduction of ECM in pure PUGs.

If anything needs too be changed on the topic of LRM vs. ECM, than maybe some slight adjustments to the ECM and general EC mechanics eg. improving BAP as counter meassure.

Edited by Gulinborsti, 05 December 2012 - 03:34 PM.

[Horned Bull]

Col Forbin, on 05 December 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Title says it all. ECM made LRMs much less viable....

No. Get a spotter or spot yourself.

Gulinborsti, on 05 December 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

If anything needs too be changed on the topic of LRM vs. ECM, than maybe some slight adjustments to the ECM and general EC mechanics eg. improving BAP as counter meassure.

I think TAG/NARC should be considered as a right counter for ECM.

[FallenFactol]

Not everyone has ECM, nor should they. This isn't an missile artillery simulator, its Mechwarrior. Try megamek and see how Battletech LRMs should work. You'll see that there a secondary weapon, not a primary. A team needs a lot more to win. I think the missiles are perfect the way they are now.

[Col Forbin]

I think all I am simply trying to say... is that all previous balancing attempts were made to a game which did not include ECM. I think we can all agree on that. If you thought LRM balance was perfect pre-patch, there is no way that same balance exists. A re-balance now that ECM is in is probably required.

Korm, on 05 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

No. Get a spotter or spot yourself.



I think TAG/NARC should be considered as a right counter for ECM.

Hey, condescending guy. Did I ever say I wasn't using a spotter? Also, I run my own tag on my Awesome, thank you very much.

Also, NARC is completely nullified by ECM according to the patch notes. No one even ran it before ECM and now it sucks more.

[Ginga121]

Follow the Tags.

I always try to either Tag the enemy mech with the ECM or lead it away myself and finish it off if it's light enough.

The number of times I have tagged the enemy Atlas that had the ECM and the LRM boats ignored it is just silly. If a target with ECM over it pops up and you can lock it then shoot the hell out of it.

Also the Narc wasn't nullified by the ECM. The Narc was useless to begin with. All the ECM did was make the Narc Completely useless 100% of the time instead of Completely useless 99% of the time

Edited by Ginga121, 05 December 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[Aidan Malchor]

I'm happy to not be playing LRM's online anymore.

[Ginga121]

SicksGunz, on 05 December 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Why would it fade in popularity? For 1.5 tons, the same as an AMS, it makes you virtually invulnerable to LRMs and streaks, plus it prohibits people easily calling you as a target. Plus you can jam their ECM if you want. I would say running ECM is at least a 30% boost to survivability, if not 70% or more.

On the contrary, I think people are still figuring out how important and powerful it is, and its use is going to go up.

There are only 4 mechs that can use an ECM. Most people won't enjoy those mechs. It's a different role to play. Less emphasis on damage and more on keeping hidden or chasing enemy ECM's.

You aren't immune to streaks either. I have run up behind many Commando's with an ECM and streaked them to death simply by setting my ECM to counter instead of disrupt.

I've also watched from a distance as a few Atlases with ECMs disappear in a hail of LRM's as I sit giggling with a Tag pointed at their face.

Edited by Ginga121, 05 December 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[Buckminster]

I am a bit disappointed that they let an Atlas have ECM. In the older games (MechCommander I think) only the Raven could get ECM, so even though it was powerful, you were stuck in a 35 ton mech.

[Lt Limpy]

OP, that is ECM's raison d'être. Take out the ECM mech, and you can fire LRMs again. What you're asking for would practically be a deathwish/instant lose scenario for any team without ECM, of which about 50% of the PUGs I dropped with yesterday were.

[Sen]

Honestly, there are WAAAY too many variables to just blanket decide LRMs need to be returned to their pre-nerfed state.

The biggest one of these is that, if you make this change, EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER is going to be in a raven, a commando, a cicada, or an atlas just to get clear of it.

ECM as it stands now is EXTREMELY frustrating when your enemy has 3 or 4 of them [and your team does not] but much more manageable when you've only got one or two per team. I've been on both ends of this one BTW.

Also, remember that this change would have very VERY different results depending on if you were in a pug or an 8 man premade. At least in a premade you can expect your ECM equpped mechs to follow orders and not run off to single handedly assault the entire enemy group

in essence, leave it alone. If a change must be made, limit matchmaker to one one or two ECM per team per round. you won't be LOLRM ever again, but maybe you won't be QQRM either ^^

[AlexWildeagle]

OP. If every mech could carry ECM I would agree with you. But since there's only a few that do and they either move too fast or too slow I find missile damage to be just fine.