100 replies to this topic

[Sundiver]

Been thinking about this for awhile now. The people who complain about the LRM's and Streaks being, "Easy Mode", while their Energy/Ballistic weapons are how, "real men", pilot mechs.

This game is not and never was intended to be a FPS. It's a simulation of an incredibly sophisticated machine. It's the equivalent of strapping on a modern jet fighter.

Yes, you do probably have a cannon on board but, modern air combat doctrine says you if you need it, you've screwed up. Most of your weapons are modern, fire and forget from beyond visual range.

Stop and consider nine times out of ten even you non-missile users have locked onto your target and if you're a halfway experienced player you're using your enemy damage indicated display to put your impact point where it needs to be. You watch you're impact point, get it on the section you want and hold the trigger down till it blows off. There is no practical difference between locking on from 600 meters and sniping a section than there is locking on from 600 meters and raining missiles on someone's head.

I can't count the number of times I've died to someone sniping from the edge of lock on range. The smart pilot understands and uses combined arms. Let the missile mechs rain soften targets before you move in and finish them.

[Obadiah333]

*sniff, sniff* I smell troll bait.

[xenoglyph]

You're sort of right. Since the beginning of MWO streaks and LRMs were easy mode.

This all changed last patch. Now real men use streaks and LRMs.

Edited by xenoglyph, 12 December 2012 - 01:37 AM.

[Sundiver]

Obadiah333, on 11 December 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

*sniff, sniff* I smell troll bait.

Not really, or at least none intended. I could've approached the topic just as easily from a Combined Arms Theory perspective. Long and the short being that missiles have a legitimate place on the Battletech battlefield.

[Duncan Fisher]

Being "good" at this game isn't about being some l33t counterstrike pro 13 year old headshot master.

It's about outsmarting and outplaying your opponent. Obviously FPS skills will help, but with targets as large and relatively slow moving as mechs, and rarity of quick kills, anyone coordinated enough to surf the internet should be able to hit their target (unless there is bad lag of course). None of the weapons take a whole lot of skill to aim, the real skill at the moment (unfortunately) is being able to account for lag and netcode, which missiles can bypass.

[xenoglyph]

Combined arms is smart. Combined arms is good. However, the moment you switch from a real weapon to streaks or LRMs you're switching to a weapon that requires less skill. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging or admitting that.

Edited by xenoglyph, 11 December 2012 - 11:42 PM.

[HybridTheory]

ECM is over-powered. period. I'm not an LRM or Streak SRM pilot. Unless they can fix the "lag shield" or "half damage" or wtf is wrong with light mechs in the game, they need to scale back the ECM to be on Ravens only... OR perhaps have ECM act as it was intended.... Streak SRMs should STILL FIRE but as unguided missiles if under the effect of ECM... and the BAP should help to counter the ECM effects. OR... if the "real men" pilots of MWO want it to stay as is... then the game will forever be 1 Raven chasis, 1 Commando chasis, 1 Cicada chasis and 1 DDC chasis. Wow. fun. Nope... guess most will play Hawken now. Or Planetside 2. Or whatever else is out there. Seems the number of players in MWO has dropped SUBSTANTIALLY since last patch despite the 8 man groupings being restored... I play plenty and I see the same names in game over and over and over.

Suggestion... fix all the old bugs before introducing new unbalancing mechanics to this game! Stop adding content that hides problems... FIX IT!!!!

[Kurayami]

IF i_was_killed_by = (weapon_x) AND weapon_i_use != weapon_x THEN weapon_x = OMG TEH EASY MODE OP **** NERF NAO!
works like magic on this forum.

[Cerlin]

I did really like LRM easy mode sometimes. It matches my mood some days. I dont see why this shouldnt be a valid tactic. It is nice to have some indirect fire to soften the baddies up.

And as the guy above me said, maybe I should rage harder about balance. but thats not my style. I hope they give LRMs a bit more of a role, and even streaks Idont have a huge issue as long as they dont all hit CT.

Edited by Cerlin, 11 December 2012 - 11:48 PM.

[De La Fresniere]

To me it's a question of game balance.

If an action requires more skill, it should be more rewarding.

I'm fine with homing weapons existing, but they should be much weaker than the ones that require aim. In MWO, homing weapons are indeed weaker against large and slow mechs (because they can't target individual sections), but they tend to be much better than aimed weapons against small and fast mechs (because aimed weapons can miss and it's very difficult to aim at specific sections on a tiny mech moving at high speeds).

[Sundiver]

Good point, Sir. I hadn't really considered the, "twitch factor". Might explain a lot about my own predilections, I know for a fact my reflexes aren't the same at 45 as they were at 18. So, I tend to run heavy missile mechs and lighter gun mechs. You are correct to in that little aiming is required in most "guns" situations, I'd say other than extreme range sniping with AC2's and 5's.


I tend to run lights with a big gun and shoot out knee caps first.

[Khan Reaper]

I think there is quite a difference between lockable missile weapons and non lockable weapons. Especially in the form of ballistics. I've become quite proud of how well I am becoming at leading a moving target and laying into them with my gauss. I'm not saying that streaks or LRM's don't have a place in the game, but I can't stand behind saying that it takes the same skill. Perhaps firing those missiles takes skill, but I'm placing that reticle a whole inch in front of them to hit them at further distances with ballistics, while the missile user is just hovering the reticle over the lock. I may just be "offended" or my "epeen" has been kicked by this comment, but I don't think so. It certainly takes skill to hit with ballistics. I doubt that a missile boat pilot feels the same pride that I do when making a kill at 800 meters with my gauss.

Edited by Khan Reaper, 11 December 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[Jackalneck]

HybridTheory, on 11 December 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

Suggestion... fix all the old bugs before introducing new unbalancing mechanics to this game! Stop adding content that hides problems... FIX IT!!!!

Please continue to add the appropriate systems to the game. LRMs were too strong before AMS, then AMS was introduced and everyone complained LRMs were useless for two weeks, then people figured out what to do, LRMs were buffed (or fixed, and then Artemis was added) and LRMs were too strong again until ECM was released. These systems are part of Battletech, they need to be in the game, the devs will balance them, it just takes some time. That's why this is a beta. As a community in general, we need to stop overreacting because our favorite OP build was nerfed, or because the devs bring the game more inline with what Battletech is supposed to be about. Asking the devs to stop adding new content is ridiculous, most of us here look forward to new content on Tuesdays and can't wait to see the new systems, mechs, maps, vanity items, whatever.

[Terror Teddy]

The main problem with it all is that combined arms is just that - combined.

It means that for all these functions we need teamwork - even passive teamwork.

LRM players needs to think about what:
-Targets now are outside of ECM influence.
-Target is TAG'ed or NARC'ed
- Outside of minimum range
- Targetable but in cover

While the REST of the team in order to HAVE LRM support fire
- Must take out ECM
- Must TAG / NARC
- Must nullify enemy ECM

Etc...

But we cannot compare it to a Jetfighter, if we have to I'd say the A10 Warthog.

It has missiles, it has a 30mm rotary cannon of death and ALL weapons it has is a main weapon. If you talk about having a cannon to use when you screw up then you must mean the MG's and not the AC/20.

Also, I have no NEED to lock onto my target. I just watch for a silhouette of an enemy in the distance and start blasting him with X3 AC5's - those ARE my primary weapons.

[Kaziganthi]

Khan Reaper, on 11 December 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

I think there is quite a difference between lockable missile weapons and non lockable weapons. Especially in the form of ballistics. I've become quite proud of how well I am becoming at leading a moving target and laying into them with my gauss. I'm not saying that streaks or LRM's don't have a place in the game, but I can't stand behind saying that it takes the same skill. Perhaps firing those missiles takes skill, but I'm placing that reticle a whole inch in front of them to hit them at further distances with ballistics, while the missile user is just hovering the reticle over the lock. I may just be "offended" or my "epeen" has been kicked by this comment, but I don't think so. It certainly takes skill to hit with ballistics. I doubt that a missile boat pilot feels the same pride that I do when making a kill at 800 meters with my gauss.

Fair points....consider this.

Your keeping your target reticule over your vitem much the same way as a LRM driver has to. They need to hold it at all times to keep lock, otherwise they dumbfire into the ground. Similar to your leading the target. Now factor in the slow flight time of the missiles on a target 800m away. They don;t hit within a second like Ballistics or PPC/ERPPC's do, but take a good 3-5 seconds.

Nowe you've got your missile lock, but before you fire, you have to take into account the opponents movement, how they are traversing the terrain. Are they hiding behind cover which my missiles will impact. Where will they head to when the "Incoming Missiles" flashes across the screen. These have to be taken into account as part of the GOOD LRM boat captain before they send in the rain. Which means they have to be in the right firing position.

You can tell a Great LRM pilot from the average, by the amount of Assisted kills they get. They don't get very many killing strikes, but plenty of assists. There job is to pound and pound, and by being in the right spot to do so. They also don't wastw ammo on blowing up terrain.

Terror Teddy, on 11 December 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

The main problem with it all is that combined arms is just that - combined.

It means that for all these functions we need teamwork - even passive teamwork.

LRM players needs to think about what:
-Targets now are outside of ECM influence.
-Target is TAG'ed or NARC'ed
- Outside of minimum range
- Targetable but in cover

While the REST of the team in order to HAVE LRM support fire
- Must take out ECM
- Must TAG / NARC
- Must nullify enemy ECM

In response to this...

Do you need to equip multiple electronic suites to make lasers and ballistics a viable weapon?

Do you need the assitance of other mechs in targeting opponents outside the 750 to fire Guass and PPC without having them have a big flashing red light say "Incoming" before they get hit?

[xenoglyph]

The hardest Gundam weapon to aim is definitely the sword tho, props to those guys who can use it effectively.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

I've never understood how running around in the short range gap trying to hold your cross hair on your target long enough to get a lock (while getting shot to hell or not) then having to hold it there long enough to fire again is considered "Easy Mode" or "No aim" . Its not like I fire blindly the second I line up and just keep blindly firing, lrm's sure there is some of that since you cant usually see your target, but you still need to watch to see if you are even hitting your target(or just waste amo). My 2 cents that with inflation prob. aint worth 1 cent.

[Khan Reaper]

I agree with you Kaz. I think they take different skill sets. But I get excited when I make that ballistic hit while I'm moving and the enemy is moving and I'm at a long distance. I have no hatred for missiles. I appreciate seeing those bad boys hitting my target when they close in thinking I'll be less of a danger at close range.

Additionally, a lot of the skill that is now required to fire a volley of LRM's wasn't there before ECM. So while I agree that NOW there is some, if not a lot, of skill involved in using lockable missiles, it wasn't there before (at least not as much as it is now), certainly making LRM's pre-ECM much easier to use than non-lockable weapons. Which makes the ECM OP arguement that much more impotent. It almost seems that Missile Boats are angry because they actually have to think now before firing that volley.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

This is legitimate advice for killing lrm boats.

[One Medic Army]

Well it comes down to risk/reward or more specifically difficulty/effectiveness.
Streaks are fairly easy to use
Lasers are a bit harder
Dumbfire SRMs are somewhat harder
Ballistics are even harder

LRMs currently I'd say are hard, but only if PUGing, with a team and a dedicated supporter or two it's not too hard.

Ideally the effectiveness of any system should scale with how difficult it is to use said system, as well as with the sacrafices required to use said system.
Streaks are pretty much the easiest weapons system to use, and they require next to no sacrifices. Therefore they should be among the least powerful weapons. (Not counting ECM, which at this point most people realize it needs tweaking).

TL:DR if a weapon is both easier to use, easier to mount, and as or nearly as effective, then what's the point of having the harder to use systems at all?