100 replies to this topic

[Khanahar]

Skill in MechWarrior is not and should not be a matter of twitch aiming. Sure, that helps. It's a part of it, more for some builds than others. But being a good pilot is more about situational awareness, discipline, and positioning. Positioning alone accounts for the greatest share. Even in a 1v1 battle, think about the sheer complexity of a fast jumping Catapult trying desperately to stay at range long enough to get enough LRMs into a flanking Hunchback before he gets under 180m. Never mind the actual complexity involved in a large battle where everyone is constantly swirling, trying to get a perfect shot.

Direct fire aiming is great. I put a lot of my attempt to improve myself as a player into lining up my AC/10 shots just right to kill those damn Ravens. But never pretend that it is more difficult or important than playing as a good member of the team.

[Purlana]

When I brawl in my Atlas at a short range there is not much "skill" involved. It's mostly just knowing what to do, and when to do it.

[Jakob Knight]

xenoglyph, on 11 December 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

Combined arms is smart. Combined arms is good. However, the moment you switch from a real weapon to streaks or LRMs you're switching to a weapon that requires less skill. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging or admitting that.

This is why trying to talk to direct-fire counterstrike players is rather useless. Missiles require different skills than direct-fire weapons, and the players who specialize in direct-fire weapons lack these skills. Therefore, to them, they don't exist...hense the idea that missiles required 'no skill', even though it has been proven and pointed out many, many times just how much was stacked against these weapons even before ECM. But, of course, a person won't hear what they don't want to hear.

The most important thing here is that the point about MWO not being a FPS. In no way was this intended or the point of the game, and the players who only see it that way will never understand other modes of combat. MWO is intended to be a tactical and strategic simulation of piloting a battlemech in a semi-modern combat setting. 'Skill at aiming' is only a minor skillset in that type of game, and less important than proper application of indirect support fire, tactics, countertactics, strategic goals, and enemy evaluation. This is why driving a tank in modern militaries does not put 'ability to aim the gun' at the top of the list of needed skills...that is an infantry skill, not an armor driver priority.

However, trying to get this point across to many players of MWO is an effort in futility. They are, after all, only video gamers, and not really interested in a good simulation.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 12 December 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[Crooked]

Also u can still fire LRM's without a lock. U can aim at a spot u can see and they will hit that spot. Other nite i hit several mechs this way by aiming at thier feet. Now that is skill!!! LOL

[hammerreborn]

HybridTheory, on 11 December 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

ECM is over-powered. period. I'm not an LRM or Streak SRM pilot. Unless they can fix the "lag shield" or "half damage" or wtf is wrong with light mechs in the game, they need to scale back the ECM to be on Ravens only... OR perhaps have ECM act as it was intended.... Streak SRMs should STILL FIRE but as unguided missiles if under the effect of ECM... and the BAP should help to counter the ECM effects. OR... if the "real men" pilots of MWO want it to stay as is... then the game will forever be 1 Raven chasis, 1 Commando chasis, 1 Cicada chasis and 1 DDC chasis. Wow. fun. Nope... guess most will play Hawken now. Or Planetside 2. Or whatever else is out there. Seems the number of players in MWO has dropped SUBSTANTIALLY since last patch despite the 8 man groupings being restored... I play plenty and I see the same names in game over and over and over.

Suggestion... fix all the old bugs before introducing new unbalancing mechanics to this game! Stop adding content that hides problems... FIX IT!!!!

See I never understood this complaint about ECM. Every single rant against it can all devolve into one single easy point.

Based solely on who brings more ECM mechs, one team can use streaks, the other cannot.

The streaks are the issue, not the ECM. If streaks weren't considered practically mandatory, I don't think there would be nearly as much complaints as they are right now. If the commando 2D and raven 3L weren't the heaviest missle boaters of their chassis, I don't think people would complain that much about ECM. NOONE cares about the cicada, even though it has the same lagshield, more armor, and roughly the same speed as a raven. You know why? Because it has no streaks.

Why is a Jenner considered a liability in 8 mans now while not even 2 weeks ago people laughed at anyone who didn't have them? Because they can't use streaks (jenners will always end up paired against some light that will disable their SSRMs while being able to use their own).

It's streaks. It's always been streaks, it'll always be streaks. If there weren't 4 streak ravens/streakmandos running around no one would give a **** about them or ECM.

Your suggestion is to allow them to fire indirectly if ECMed. Then they're just SRM2s, and guess what, you could equip those instead! But no, everyone wants their streaks, because streaks have become mandatory in nearly every missle hardpoint because they're so easy to use and they are near guarenteed damage, and that's the ******* issue, not ECM.

[Jakob Knight]

hammerreborn, on 12 December 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

See I never understood this complaint about ECM. Every single rant against it can all devolve into one single easy point.

Based solely on who brings more ECM mechs, one team can use streaks, the other cannot.

The streaks are the issue, not the ECM. If streaks weren't considered practically mandatory, I don't think there would be nearly as much complaints as they are right now. If the commando 2D and raven 3L weren't the heaviest missle boaters of their chassis, I don't think people would complain that much about ECM. NOONE cares about the cicada, even though it has the same lagshield, more armor, and roughly the same speed as a raven. You know why? Because it has no streaks.

Why is a Jenner considered a liability in 8 mans now while not even 2 weeks ago people laughed at anyone who didn't have them? Because they can't use streaks (jenners will always end up paired against some light that will disable their SSRMs while being able to use their own).

It's streaks. It's always been streaks, it'll always be streaks. If there weren't 4 streak ravens/streakmandos running around no one would give a **** about them or ECM.

Your suggestion is to allow them to fire indirectly if ECMed. Then they're just SRM2s, and guess what, you could equip those instead! But no, everyone wants their streaks, because streaks have become mandatory in nearly every missle hardpoint because they're so easy to use and they are near guarenteed damage, and that's the ******* issue, not ECM.

Interesting, considering it's the -ECM- mechs that now can't live without Streaks, and use them exclusively. I guess it's okay when an ECM mech has them.

More to the point, if you actually looked at the comments throughout the Forums, you would find that the majority of concern over ECM has not been the Streaks, but ECM's nullifying of LRMs. That is the issue you seem to purposefully ignore, and has nothing to do with Streaks.

Crooked, on 12 December 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Also u can still fire LRM's without a lock. U can aim at a spot u can see and they will hit that spot. Other nite i hit several mechs this way by aiming at thier feet. Now that is skill!!! LOL

Well, unless they were sitting still/afk, then I would call it luck, since nothing you did could allow you to hit a moving, evading mech at a range of greater than 200m. Let's call it was it was, and not claim false credit.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jakob Knight, on 12 December 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

However, trying to get this point across to many players of MWO is an effort in futility. They are, after all, only video gamers, and not really interested in a good simulation.

Exactly. Send Gamers out into a real war zone and see how fast they are calling for ARTILLERY!!!!! It riles my short hairs when I read how some arm chair warrior knows what it takes to actually be a soldier and make war. If you want to play at war then listen to those who make it! Say you want competition then take away the means to counter your fighting style! how do you know if you know how to fight, if all you do is shoot a rifle? Thankfully I never got to go into real combat... I never wanted to test the whole, "Your life expectancy in a real fire fight is 2.4 seconds... IF YOU ARE DOING YOUR JOB RIGHT!!!" I want this to be the best F*cking combat Sim ever. I want to be there when The BattleCorps helps the AMC free Earth from The Word of Blake. I'll be close to 70 if PGI stays at the one day=one day scale.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 December 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[Helbourne]

I totally agree with you Jakob Knight. This game is not a FPS, and if that is all its going amount to, i might as well stop playing now. I know this is game is still in a so called beta stage. I am kinda surprised that some of the player base has not just started requesting guided weapons to be removed from this game.

I wonder how many people have actully played the table top game (Battletech), Mechwarrior is the RPG.

[Joseph Mallan]

Helbourne, on 12 December 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

I totally agree with you Jakob Knight. This game is not a FPS, and if that is all its going amount to, i might as well stop playing now. I know this is game is still in a so called beta stage. I am kinda surprised that some of the player base has not just started requesting guided weapons to be removed from this game.

I wonder how many people have actully played the table top game (Battletech), Mechwarrior is the RPG.

Did you miss the Nerf SSRMs threads Helborne? There is a group wanting that very thing.

[hammerreborn]

Jakob Knight, on 12 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Interesting, considering it's the -ECM- mechs that now can't live without Streaks, and use them exclusively. I guess it's okay when an ECM mech has them.

More to the point, if you actually looked at the comments throughout the Forums, you would find that the majority of concern over ECM has not been the Streaks, but ECM's nullifying of LRMs. That is the issue you seem to purposefully ignore, and has nothing to do with Streaks.

How is saying streaks are the problem saying that it's okay when an ECM mech has them? I even explicitly stated that if the two missle boat versions of the commando and raven weren't the ECM mechs ECM wouldn't be considered to be as big a problem as it is now.

And I don't mention the LRM argument because those people are stupid. When I run my founders cata I can fire nearly all 4-5 tons of my LRM ammo in 8v8 (in PUGs I get most of my rounds off but I'm less likely to have support so I might get picked off earlier) using my own TAG or a teammates. When TAG goes to 750m anyone who complains about LRMs being useless should go play hello kitty adventure. Stupidity and lack of teamwork isn't ECMs fault.

[Helbourne]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 December 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

Did you miss the Nerf SSRMs threads Helborne? There is a group wanting that very thing.

Oh sorry I did miss that, I might have just skimmed right past it. It just annoying as all hell that a good chunk of this player base does not want a game true to the TT game.

[GioAvanti]

Sundiver, on 11 December 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

Not really, or at least none intended. I could've approached the topic just as easily from a Combined Arms Theory perspective. Long and the short being that missiles have a legitimate place on the Battletech battlefield.

They do, but they are undeniably easier to use. Sniping with a direct fire weapon is harder....

Also your fighter analogy is BS.....those missiles fly much further (several miles out right?) and move at supersonic speeds... that's why guns are usually a last resort in modern warfare.

Seriously don't try to use an analogy you don't truly get.

[Helbourne]

Yeah missles are easier to use, however that is not a reason to remove them or make them just dumbfire only.

Right now the battles are 'to the death' which is wrong too. Yes I know you can cap the enemy base too. If your out gunned and your smart you retreat. You save your resources to fight another day. Perhaps sometime they will put that into the game. If you are going to do a proper warfare sim capturing planets and such you should be able to retreat when you know you cannot win the battle.

[Joseph Mallan]

Helbourne, on 12 December 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Oh sorry I did miss that, I might have just skimmed right past it. It just annoying as all hell that a good chunk of this player base does not want a game true to the TT game.

it's easy to have missed since ECM hit the game very few people use Streaks. What was wrong with streaks is people were loading up 4-6 of them and the damage was concentrated on the CT. So technically the weapon wasn't broke it was massed and the to-hit area to tight.

Gio, you joke right? I can snipe you with a Gauss at 1000M with No Lock. travel time is no issue, but missiles I have to wait, and wait, and wait till they reach target, and if I loose lock, I lose ammo. Give me missiles that fly at supersonic speed so they reach their targets as fast as a Hypersonic Gauss round then. Seriously you don't want to argue the difficulty of killing with an infantry soldier.

[hammerreborn]

Helbourne, on 12 December 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Oh sorry I did miss that, I might have just skimmed right past it. It just annoying as all hell that a good chunk of this player base does not want a game true to the TT game.

A true to TT game would have hit checks prior to firing any streak missle rather than being a 100% hit homing missle of death. Streaks would also hit everywhere, not just the torso (though this is the proposed dev change which I wholeheartedly support). The damage values I'm fairly certain are also different that TT, and fire faster than once every 10s.

Joseph Mallan, on 12 December 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

it's easy to have missed since ECM hit the game very few people use Streaks. What was wrong with streaks is people were loading up 4-6 of them and the damage was concentrated on the CT. So technically the weapon wasn't broke it was massed and the to-hit area to tight.

Gio, you joke right? I can snipe you with a Gauss at 1000M with No Lock. travel time is no issue, but missiles I have to wait, and wait, and wait till they reach target, and if I loose lock, I lose ammo. Give me missiles that fly at supersonic speed so they reach their targets as fast as a Hypersonic Gauss round then. Seriously you don't want to argue the difficulty of killing with an infantry soldier.

I will also argue that LRM flight speed is too slow. I can dodge it too easily in my Jenner even on open terrain by running perpendicular to the flight path.

[Joseph Mallan]

hammer the 10 second turn was fine for TT. but since movement is constant the idea that a turn is one salvo+recycle & vent would mean a turn is about 4-5 seconds and would put heat back closer to TT. not exactly but i would wager close enough that us TT players would say "close enough".

[hammerreborn]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 December 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

hammer the 10 second turn was fine for TT. but since movement is constant the idea that a turn is one salvo+recycle & vent would mean a turn is about 4-5 seconds and would put heat back closer to TT. not exactly but i would wager close enough that us TT players would say "close enough".

I know, just don't like the argument that the game should be "true to TT". It bugs me. Mechwarrior Tactics is that game, I want a balanced mechsim that borrows from TT as starting points.

Edited by hammerreborn, 12 December 2012 - 12:20 PM.

[Stoicblitzer]

I would say a different sort of skill is required. The main problem I have with LRM boaters is that they sometimes think they are hot **** when they get highest dmg and 3 kills a game. They risk little on their way to those numbers. They need brawlers to get and hold targets to even be effective. Now they need their other mechs to bring ECM or TAG too. Sometimes they can be really demanding and get pissed if you lose lock. If the LRM boater is humble and realizes he isn't the main focus of the game, then I generally like them. I go LRM boat when I feel like being lazy but I don't boast about kills/DMG because I know how much I owe to my teammates for helping me do it. A good analogy might be running backs (LRM boaters) and any blockers on a running play (everyone else). Good running backs are supported by an equally talented O-line. I normally hate MWO + RL analogies btw so feel free to tear mine up.

[Helbourne]

Firstly, I did not know about Mechwarrior Tactics. I may check it out, but I know I already hate the random packs you get with in game currency or real currency. If I am spending money, I want to know what I am getting. Secondly Streaks need to hit all the time or you just should not have them in the game. If that is too easy for people, then don't use them. Oh now the complaint is the chassis that can carry 6 missle weapons. Well save your complaint for when they release Omnimechs, when hardpoints go away. Gee lets see, I think I have the weight to carry 12 missle weapons on this chassis, watch out here comes a real missile boat.

[Solis Obscuri]

Kaziganthi, on 12 December 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

LRM's having indirect fire is one of the benifits from using them. The drawback from the start, is that the C3 system, which is in itself an advanced eletronic suite was impletement right from the start. Part of its design is to pass off that information to othermechs equipped with the slave units. Otherwise, the spotting mech could not fire any weapons at all.

This is incorrect. In CBT 'mechs could always act as spotters for indirect fire, units always shared sensor data in double-blind play (unless a pilot was rendered unconscious), and C3 only conferred benefits to direct-fire weapons by reducing range to-hit penalties:

Quote

C3 COMPUTER (MASTER/SLAVE)
The C3 computer system can link up to twelve ’Mechs or vehicles together—utilizing a series of C3 Master and C3 Slaves—in a communications network that will share targeting information.

To make an attack using a C3 computer network, calculate the to-hit number using the range to the target from the networked unit nearest the target with line of sight. Use the firing unit’s modifiers for movement, terrain effects, minimum range and so on. A weapon attack using a C3 network must conform to standard LOS restrictions and cannot fire beyond its maximum range, though a well-placed lancemate may allow the firing unit to use his weapon’s short-range to-hit number at long range.

The C3 network itself has no maximum range, but only units actually on the playing area can benefit from the network, and the C3 Master (or C3 Masters if using a company-sized network) must be on the playing area.

TAG: The C3 Master (but not the C3 Slaves) exactly duplicates the function of target acquisition gear (see TAG; p. 142).

LRM Indirect Fire: C3-equipped units spotting targets for or launching an LRM indirect fire attack use the LRM Indirect Fire rules (see p. 111), and gain no benefit from a C3 network.

Minimum Ranges: Minimum range is always determined from the attacking unit to the target.

Variable Damage Weapons: The range, to determine the Damage Value of a Variable Damage Weapon, is always determined from the attacking unit to the target.

Stealth Armor: Armor that inficts range modifiers against attacking units does not confuse a C3 network. While such additional range modifiers apply to the nearest attacking unit, they do not apply to any other units using the network to attack. However, some such systems (notably the Stealth Armor System, p. 142) include their own ECM system; in this case, an attacking unit must be outside the effective range of the ECM mounted on the target unit, or the attacker gets cutoff from the network.

(Total Warfare; p. 131)

Given that we don't have range to-hit penalties in this game, and there's no way to gain improved direct-fire accuracy by having a friendly unit get closer to the target, C3 is impossible.