100 replies to this topic

[Terror Teddy]

Kaziganthi, on 12 December 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Do you need to equip multiple electronic suites to make lasers and ballistics a viable weapon?

No, but nine times out of ten whenever I can aim and shoot my enemy they can see, aim and shoot at me. I don't have the option of indirect fire.

Quote

Do you need the assitance of other mechs in targeting opponents outside the 750 to fire Guass and PPC without having them have a big flashing red light say "Incoming" before they get hit?

Nope.

A few points more.

LRM's were to easy BEFORE ECM. I think the current ECM has some flaws that needs some balancing tweaks. For example, in older implementations of ECM in mechwarrior games they increased locking time and that can be punishing enough if your fire rate is cut by 30% - especially for SSRM.

You have indirect fire and a weapon that does 1,8-40 in damage (LRM20), the only weapon in the game that has gained a +80% damage bonus from the original rules.

My personal opinion is that they should never had given LRM's indirect fire but as they were implemented in earlier games.

I would also see a SRM like flightpath when using LRM's as direct fire targeting.

We also need MUCH larger maps to fully be able to use indirect fire without instantly bumping into each other.

I also want to see Inferno missiles as ammo option for missiles.

But I guess that's how PGI works with it right now, they throw in a wrench in the works (the ECM) and then they will tweak where needed.

[HighGround]

Jackalneck, on 11 December 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

Please continue to add the appropriate systems to the game. LRMs were too strong before AMS, then AMS was introduced and everyone complained LRMs were useless for two weeks, then people figured out what to do, LRMs were buffed (or fixed, and then Artemis was added) and LRMs were too strong again until ECM was released. These systems are part of Battletech, they need to be in the game, the devs will balance them, it just takes some time. That's why this is a beta. As a community in general, we need to stop overreacting because our favorite OP build was nerfed, or because the devs bring the game more inline with what Battletech is supposed to be about. Asking the devs to stop adding new content is ridiculous, most of us here look forward to new content on Tuesdays and can't wait to see the new systems, mechs, maps, vanity items, whatever.

You hit the nail on the head sir. It all boils down to "My overpowered win build is not win anymore, I have to play differently now that they added/changed _____, waahhhhhhhh!"

[Kaziganthi]

Khan Reaper, on 12 December 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

I agree with you Kaz. I think they take different skill sets. But I get excited when I make that ballistic hit while I'm moving and the enemy is moving and I'm at a long distance. I have no hatred for missiles. I appreciate seeing those bad boys hitting my target when they close in thinking I'll be less of a danger at close range.

Additionally, a lot of the skill that is now required to fire a volley of LRM's wasn't there before ECM. So while I agree that NOW there is some, if not a lot, of skill involved in using lockable missiles, it wasn't there before (at least not as much as it is now), certainly making LRM's pre-ECM much easier to use than non-lockable weapons. Which makes the ECM OP arguement that much more impotent. It almost seems that Missile Boats are angry because they actually have to think now before firing that volley.

Not really, I tried a few games in my LRM boat, and you know what, You completely stuffed when 1 ecm commando comes in close. You can't lock missiles on him, nor can you acquire lock on anyone else whilst they are near. They move too fast to be able to hit them effectively with laser due to the netcode, which means they can take all the time in the world to strip you bare and kill you.

I've been playing an ECM commando the last 4 days (my first play with a light mech by the way), and when 1 of them can take down 3 assaults, there is something severly wrong.

Having to take ECM or TAG to counter it is not a reasonable option. You can't even get a visual lock on an ECM protected mech until your with 300m of them, compared to a non-ecm protected mech of 750m.

ECM is limited to only 4 mechs, so the only reasonable LRM mech would be the atlas, but why bother when you can plant SSRM on and become a brawler.

TAG has a range of 300m (soon to become 700m reportably), but that is just as useless. Readon, now you have to hold tag lock and missile lock on that mech at 700m, whilst your missiles are in flight all the while the "INCOMING MISSLES" message is flashing across their screen. Due to the slow flight time of the missiles, they still have 3-5 seconds to find cover.

If you probably looked closely, most of the people who are saying ECM is great, it isn;t overpowered are 90% likely to be driving fast mechs that the netcode gived them some protection from. Couple that with ECM and they are near unbeatable.

[Kaziganthi]

Terror Teddy, on 12 December 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

No, but nine times out of ten whenever I can aim and shoot my enemy they can see, aim and shoot at me. I don't have the option of indirect fire.

Same with LRMs.

As for indirect fire, you still need to clear terrain. It's not hard to look up and see where the missiles are coming from and trace them back to a mech on a ridgeline. I also need the cooperation of other mechs. ballistics and lasers don't.

Terror Teddy, on 12 December 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

Nope.

A few points more.

LRM's were to easy BEFORE ECM. I think the current ECM has some flaws that needs some balancing tweaks. For example, in older implementations of ECM in mechwarrior games they increased locking time and that can be punishing enough if your fire rate is cut by 30% - especially for SSRM.

You have indirect fire and a weapon that does 1,8-40 in damage (LRM20), the only weapon in the game that has gained a +80% damage bonus from the original rules.

That was to make up for the fact that armour values were doubled and the spread of LRMs as they don't focus on 1 area. When LRM's were 1pt of damage, I could use 1800 rounds of ammo and barely kill an Atlas.

Terror Teddy, on 12 December 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

My personal opinion is that they should never had given LRM's indirect fire but as they were implemented in earlier games.

I would also see a SRM like flightpath when using LRM's as direct fire targeting.

We also need MUCH larger maps to fully be able to use indirect fire without instantly bumping into each other.

I also want to see Inferno missiles as ammo option for missiles.

But I guess that's how PGI works with it right now, they throw in a wrench in the works (the ECM) and then they will tweak where needed.

LRM's having indirect fire is one of the benifits from using them. The drawback from the start, is that the C3 system, which is in itself an advanced eletronic suite was impletement right from the start. Part of its design is to pass off that information to othermechs equipped with the slave units. Otherwise, the spotting mech could not fire any weapons at all.

Imagine how that would play out. It would be a very different and probably more enjoyable TACTICAL game. However, no-one (or very few) would want to spot for LRM mechs as they all want the kills. Then they would abuse those pilots who took them for wasting tonnage. Similar to what is happening now with the introduction of ECM.

edit : ECM didn't kill the streakcats as much as they expected. They just run in pairs with an ECM commando that also has streaks. It did however just about kill LRM's.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 12 December 2012 - 12:48 AM.

[Draco Harkins]

HybridTheory, on 11 December 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

ECM is over-powered. period. I'm not an LRM or Streak SRM pilot. Unless they can fix the "lag shield" or "half damage" or wtf is wrong with light mechs in the game, they need to scale back the ECM to be on Ravens only... OR perhaps have ECM act as it was intended.... Streak SRMs should STILL FIRE but as unguided missiles if under the effect of ECM... and the BAP should help to counter the ECM effects. OR... if the "real men" pilots of MWO want it to stay as is... then the game will forever be 1 Raven chasis, 1 Commando chasis, 1 Cicada chasis and 1 DDC chasis. Wow. fun. Nope... guess most will play Hawken now. Or Planetside 2. Or whatever else is out there. Seems the number of players in MWO has dropped SUBSTANTIALLY since last patch despite the 8 man groupings being restored... I play plenty and I see the same names in game over and over and over.

Suggestion... fix all the old bugs before introducing new unbalancing mechanics to this game! Stop adding content that hides problems... FIX IT!!!!

^THIS! I could hug you right now. The majority of my own unit has regretfully shown their lack of will to play this game by returning to the old more enjoyable games and most even disapeering from the game itself nowhere to be seen for quite some time. If the hardcores leave what will remain? Yeah, THOSE...

Jackalneck, on 11 December 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

Please continue to add the appropriate systems to the game. LRMs were too strong before AMS, then AMS was introduced and everyone complained LRMs were useless for two weeks, then people figured out what to do, LRMs were buffed (or fixed, and then Artemis was added) and LRMs were too strong again until ECM was released. These systems are part of Battletech, they need to be in the game, the devs will balance them, it just takes some time. That's why this is a beta. As a community in general, we need to stop overreacting because our favorite OP build was nerfed, or because the devs bring the game more inline with what Battletech is supposed to be about. Asking the devs to stop adding new content is ridiculous, most of us here look forward to new content on Tuesdays and can't wait to see the new systems, mechs, maps, vanity items, whatever.

You're a obvious insightfull LRM's pilot with years of Battletech and not a true consumer of trinkets/fanboy and obvious shooter player AT ALL!

Edited by Draco Harkins, 12 December 2012 - 01:10 AM.

[Khan Reaper]

Does the netcode hurt ballistic weapons as well? I only ask because I have very little problems hitting those scouts with them This could perhaps be because I am compensating for the netcode/lag shield without knowing it.

Also, I don't use ECM, nor do I use missiles, and this could be the reason why I don't mind ECM. It does sound like it needs a tweak, or the counters need tweaks, but I just hate hearing over and over that the ECM is OP. Everything that has been added to this game has been OP initially. It may be true, but it won't be for long. Too many people are ready to cast the game into the pit of hell because PGI is doing with this equipment, what they have done with nearly every other piece. (off subject, sorry)

Once again, I think it just comes down to how much enjoyment I get out of that leading shot. I have used missiles, and while admittedly pre-ECM, I never threw my fist in the air when I connected. I just love me some gauss though.

[Kaziganthi]

Khan Reaper, on 12 December 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

Does the netcode hurt ballistic weapons as well? I only ask because I have very little problems hitting those scouts with them This could perhaps be because I am compensating for the netcode/lag shield without knowing it.

Also, I don't use ECM, nor do I use missiles, and this could be the reason why I don't mind ECM. It does sound like it needs a tweak, or the counters need tweaks, but I just hate hearing over and over that the ECM is OP. Everything that has been added to this game has been OP initially. It may be true, but it won't be for long. Too many people are ready to cast the game into the pit of hell because PGI is doing with this equipment, what they have done with nearly every other piece. (off subject, sorry)

Once again, I think it just comes down to how much enjoyment I get out of that leading shot. I have used missiles, and while admittedly pre-ECM, I never threw my fist in the air when I connected. I just love me some gauss though.

Not to sound offensive, but do you have the founders Cat as part of your stables? If so try a few games with it and see the difference. You'll notice how bad it is.

Edit: I think the problem is they come out strong and nerf, when they should do the rervese. Start off light and tweek up.

Also the netcode affects just about everything. I've even seen jenners outrun LRM swarms. The faster the mech, the bigger bubble they have.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 12 December 2012 - 12:59 AM.

[Khan Reaper]

No offense taken whatsoever.

I do own the Founders Cat, and I will take a look in the morning. Though, I'm sure I'll suck since I haven't used LRM's since ECM.

I do disagree with starting on the lower end first only because scaling up, I think, would take longer, with the added danger of making it OP at some point, then having to scale it back again. I think scaling down until it hits that sweet spot may be easier. However, when they nerf ECM too much and then have to scale up again, I will eat these words.

[Terror Teddy]

Kaziganthi, on 12 December 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

LRM's having indirect fire is one of the benifits from using them. The drawback from the start, is that the C3 system, which is in itself an advanced eletronic suite was impletement right from the start. Part of its design is to pass off that information to othermechs equipped with the slave units. Otherwise, the spotting mech could not fire any weapons at all.

This is something I would have preferred as modules. And multiple modes of fire.

-Require C3 system on Targeter and Receiver (requires teamwork) for Indirect fire
-Indirect fire has spread over target mech
-Direct fire has no parabolic arc and tighter spread (more focused damage)

This would mean that using LRM as direct fire weapons would yield more damage but enemies could hide by stepping behind cover.

Indirect fire using C3 would in this case be MORE efficient than it is now due to being forced to use the C3 system

In a sense I like indirect fire because it gives a role but I also feel that the initial implementation is flawed.

[Dukarriope]

If this followed the model of fighter jets, a single LRM salvo should kill everything.

[Kaziganthi]

Khan Reaper, on 12 December 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

I do disagree with starting on the lower end first only because scaling up, I think, would take longer, with the added danger of making it OP at some point, then having to scale it back again. I think scaling down until it hits that sweet spot may be easier. However, when they nerf ECM too much and then have to scale up again, I will eat these words.

But starting off light and increaseing probably would cause less complaints, and less people leaving the game due to the major problems of new gear being so overpowering it can render the players favourite build useless.

Dukarriope, on 12 December 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

If this followed the model of fighter jets, a single LRM salvo should kill everything.

But most fighter jets dont carry between 4 and 20 tonnes of armour.

[MadcatX]

Screw it, just give me MRM's so we can stop this LRM nonsense (I know they're not available yet per canon)

[Kaziganthi]

MadcatX, on 12 December 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

Screw it, just give me MRM's so we can stop this LRM nonsense (I know they're not available yet per canon)

Canon in this version went out the window a few patches back. If we were sticking to Cannon, the only mech in this Timeline that has ECM, is the Raven. Double heatsinks would be just that. NARC would emit a homing beacon. A Commando running at 130kph and slamming into an Atlas would be like a bug on a windshield...and so on and so on.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 12 December 2012 - 01:50 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Duncan Fisher, on 11 December 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

Being "good" at this game isn't about being some l33t counterstrike pro 13 year old headshot master.

But youll never tell them that and get them to listen

[Mordin Ashe]

xenoglyph, on 11 December 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

You're sort of right. Since the beginning of MWO streaks and LRMs were easy mode.

This all changed last patch. Now real men use streaks and LRMs.

Show me how every ECM mech equipped with streaks is manly. Please, I really don't get it.
Also, LRMs were easy to shoot, but hard to hit. So some skill was required and without thinking ahead, the only thing you could kill was a huge rock or building. Compare it to buying an atlas and charging the enemy straight ahead, which requires neither skill nor thinking, and there goes your simplicity.

[Terror Teddy]

Kaziganthi, on 12 December 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

If we were sticking to Cannon,

Yea, we all love Gunpowder.

I prefer the 12 pounder myself. Or did you mean Canon?

[Kaziganthi]

Terror Teddy, on 12 December 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Yea, we all love Gunpowder.

I prefer the 12 pounder myself. Or did you mean Canon?

Yeah, typo. Been up since 4am, and manually hauled about 4 tonnes of nail boxes today so give me a break. Preferably my left leg, I need the time off work.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 12 December 2012 - 02:02 AM.

[Surtr]

Sundiver, on 11 December 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

This game is not and never was intended to be a FPS. It's a simulation of an incredibly sophisticated machine. It's the equivalent of strapping on a modern jet fighter.

Actually its the equivalent of strapping into a 1980's jet fighter, with 1 ton computers that have seemingly random aim and struggle to get firing solutions on fast moving objects.

[Revorn]

xenoglyph, on 11 December 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Now real men use streaks and LRMs.

And you are a realy men, siting behind an computer and playing Pew Pew? Rofl

[Joseph Mallan]

xenoglyph, on 11 December 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

Combined arms is smart. Combined arms is good. However, the moment you switch from a real weapon to streaks or LRMs you're switching to a weapon that requires less skill. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging or admitting that.

Jamie Wolf
Morgan Kell
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Galin Cox
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