383 replies to this topic

[Onyx Rain]

Mavairo, on 15 December 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

Why? At minimum it weighs .5 tons more. It's DPS needs to be -at least- what the SL's is.

Agreed...

I keep bringing it up, but most don't bother to comment on it...especially the people from the pro-manchine guns should suck crowd, or only needs a slight damage buff crowd...

It needs the 1dps for the simple reason of the way it does its damage. It sprays it all over...it isn't focused like a small laser's damage so it is much much much less effective. A lot of people seem not to realize how important focused damage is in this game. It is the very reason ballistic weapons like the gauss/ac20/uac5 are so dangerous...they put their entire bit of damage all on one spot instead of dragging it, or spraying it around the mech like other weapons.

It is very hard even on a mostly stationary mech to keep all that damage hitting the CT, or 1 other section like you can with a small laser...much more so if the mech is moving/evading. It is like a DOT spell that effects the upper part of the mech...like 2-3 sections worth usually, making most of the damage useless....since it takes forever and ever to kill/significantly damage any 1 section.

That is why it needs to be buffed to small laser weapon dps levels because even if they do...it will still suck compared to a small laser...but we gotta fill those ballistic hard-points with something.

Boating isn't even an issue...or shouldn't be because no mech has more then like 4 ballistic points, and there are very few mechs that have more then 6+ ballistic spots...so what if we ever get a piranha that can boat 12...its a tiny little mech that would die to one good alpha strike. We already have mechs that can boat 6+ small lasers and do it very heat efficiently and these mechs at least IMO are not OP...they do crap burst damage compared to other builds, they just focus what dmg they do in on spot with short beam durations...

MG in equal numbers or even a few more will rarely if ever be as effective as laser boats they way this game plays.

Edited by Onyx Rain, 15 December 2012 - 09:39 AM.

[Khobai]

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1 DPS is purely theoretical when you get into the realm of bullet spread. Many of those may not hit, or they will spread around their body as they move, you move, and they torso twist. With 1 DPS, your actual DPS is more likely to be less than that unless they're standing still.

That's true to an extent. But it's like the three AC/2 vs one AC/20 argument. You only need to hit in the same location with 2 in 5 shots to do the same dps as an AC/20. And if your accuracy is better than 40% that's just a bonus. My accuracy happens to be way better than 40%... so the higher dps of the AC/2s outweighs the higher damage per round of the AC/20.

Quote

Why? At minimum it weighs .5 tons more. It's DPS needs to be -at least- what the SL's is.

Not really because one ton of MG Ammo can feed multiple MGs. You dont need one ton per MG. MGs weigh much less than SLs and generate no heat on top of that so no heatsink tonnage required. A flea with 6 MGs would only need 2-3 tons of ammo.

Edited by Khobai, 15 December 2012 - 09:36 AM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

I am not opposed to 1 DPS for the MG, I am simply concerned that it would be too much. The only way to be sure would be to test the MG at .8 dps and at 1.0, possibly even 1.2 DPS.

[Khobai]

1 DPS for the MG would be perfectly fine on all existing mechs. The problem occurs when mechs are introduced that can boat machine guns such as the flea. The flea would be doing absurd dps at that point.

[Onyx Rain]

Khobai, on 15 December 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

That's true to an extent. But it's like the three AC/2 vs one AC/20 argument. You only need to hit in the same location with 2 in 5 shots to do the same dps as an AC/20. And if your accuracy is better than 40% that's just a bonus. My accuracy happens to be way better than 40%... so the higher dps of the AC/2s outweighs the higher damage per round of the AC/20.

Not really because one ton of MG Ammo can feed multiple MGs. You dont need one ton per MG. MGs weigh much less than SLs and generate no heat on top of that so no heatsink tonnage required. A flea with 6 MGs would only need 2-3 tons of ammo.

1. The ac2 does 2 dmg per bullet though...not .04...or .065 whatever, buffed like many suggest....chances are between ac2 shots you can correct much more then between mg shots firing 10 bullets per second....That helps you stack some shots onto the same spot...and while the ROF of MG will randomly do some of that for you...it will also randomly miss a lot while you correct and try to hold it on target....So at the very least the degree to which your point is valid is very arguable.

You have to remember timescales too...an ac2 held on one spot or even a few will obliterate a target much much faster then just standing there holding a MG on target....Have you ever tried this to see how long it takes to kill a section of mech?...forever, plenty of room for buffing. And unlike a small laser that can put all its damage on that spot in a very brief window of time, the MG even buffed will require much longer periods of time to have the same effect....Time you're getting shot during, the target is evading, your target is killing some other guy on your team etc..etc.... This doesn't take place in a vacuum.

2. A valid point but still to be useful over a typical match you'll need 1 ton per 2 machine guns...still puts total weapon system weight well above a small laser...typically few mechs have more then 4 ballistic hard points so boating is of minimum concern especially when even a buffed machine gun won't be as powerful as a small laser which people already boat now...and its ok, but Not OP IMO. The spray and pray mechanic will likey still exist and this limits MG far more then most realize...the time needed on target to do what small laser could do is time you are getting shot, buddies are getting shot, and time for the enemy to get away, the match to end etc..etc...etc...

[CDLord HHGD]

The only buff a MG should get IMO is the addition of PvE animals and civilians <read enemy militia> to the maps to shoot at....... The militias of both sides could be doing a meta game in each match that has no bearing on the outcome (shooting each other, ignoring mechs, being killed by mechs, respawning ad-nausium to add flavor).

[Onyx Rain]

Khobai, on 15 December 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

1 DPS for the MG would be perfectly fine on all existing mechs. The problem occurs when mechs are introduced that can boat machine guns such as the flea. The flea would be doing absurd dps at that point.

How so???...we already have 9 laser hunchie that can boat small lasers...and can put that entire alpha dmg total on one section of the mech in .75 seconds......

Give it 12 buffed MG and it will still take far longer for it to chew through any 1 section of the mech. And all that time you could be getting shot, your team could be dying, and the enemy could evade/turn and fight....Small laser boats give you a huge advantage compared to MG boats by letting you take advantage of a very small window of time to put all that focused damage on 1 target section in less then a second.

I'd rather have my mech yellow/orange/red all over from MG boat then have a small laser boat punch through my head/rt in an xl build/ or ct/back in any build.

You can't just roll up behind someone in a MG boat alpha them in the back killing or nearly killing them and haul butt out of there....you gotta stand there/follow for a long long time compared to laser bursting.

And if your are face to face, you can be focusing on one section of their mech drilling a hole through it much faster then they'll pop through any 1 section of your mech unless you are severely wounded.

Edited by Onyx Rain, 15 December 2012 - 10:01 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

How so???...we already have 9 laser hunchie that can boat small lasers...and can put that entire alpha dmg total on one section of the mech in .75 seconds......

Except its balanced by heat. Machine Guns generate no heat.

So a flea fireant for example could have 6 machine guns and 3 small lasers and do the same dps as an Atlas while barely generating heat all while going 170kph with MASC. If you think thats balanced im not really sure what to tell you...

So yeah 1 DPS machine guns are not a good idea because eventually were going to get a light mech that can boat a lot of machine guns. The flea fireant is currently the most likely candidate since thats the iconic variant of the flea.

Edited by Khobai, 15 December 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[Onyx Rain]

Khobai, on 15 December 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Except its balanced by heat. Machine Guns generate no heat.

Ah the old heat argument.... Well the increased weight/limited ammo/spray and pray damage, and the fact that most if not all those small lasers are drawing cooling off a pile of HS you'd already have in the engine pretty much more then offsets the no heat factor.

In fact heat and ROF is the only advantages MG have over small lasers....SM literally has every other advantage, and the ROF advantage is killed by the spray and pray mechanic so SM= every advantage but 1....MG= No advantages but 1.

If you believe that heat advantage, especially when you factor in the sm laser boats ability to put its entire alpha dmg on target in .75 seconds is enough to negate all those MG disadvantages then I question your judgement/common sense. (Nothing personal)

Edited by Onyx Rain, 15 December 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[Khobai]

Again... its a flea... a 20 ton light mech. Its not a 55 ton hunchback that goes 80kph and has no lagshielding. And you think it should do comparable dps? LMAO.

[Onyx Rain]

Khobai, on 15 December 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Again... its a flea... a 20 ton light mech. Its not a 55 ton hunchback that goes 80kph and has no lagshielding. And you think it should do comparable dps? LMAO.

Right now it is kinda unbalanced with hit box/netcode/no knockdown making lights take far more OP then they generally would be but that is a temp situation....they shouldn't design/balance the game in the long term around a temp situation.

But a MG flea should be able to do comparable dps to a small laser boat flea if such a thing exists.

Edited by Onyx Rain, 15 December 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

.they shouldn't design/balance the game in the long term around a temp situation.

temp situation? you honestly believe netcode is ever going to be fixed? I dont see it getting fixed ever... at best we'll get some stop gap measure that will lower the speed cap on lights.

[Joseph Mallan]

guys I know its a unique PoV.
But machine Guns are balanced by Gauss!
Small PoS=Machine Gun
Heavy Hammer of Thor=Gauss

Ballistic balance!


(Only partly serious here folks!)

[Jooky SeaCpt]

In "Decision At Thunder Rift", Grayson Death Carlyle blows off a Wasp's head with a machine gun. I want to be able to do the same to the Flea when it comes out.

[Lonestar1771]

Machine Guns need more dakka and I'm willing to kill to get it. Also, Paul, while you're at it can you reduce the jam rate on the UAC5 a little? My Frankenphract would appreciate it very much.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jooky SeaCpt, on 15 December 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

In "Decision At Thunder Rift", Grayson Death Carlyle blows off a Wasp's head with a machine gun. I want to be able to do the same to the Flea when it comes out.

He also beat a Marauder with a Shadow Hawk by making it run in Circles which stopped it from being able to fire its main weapons IIRC!!! Hockie was the first many BattleTech Books!

[Abrahms]

Machine guns are powerful weapons.

The only crit buff that should be associated with it is higher chance, because of higher ROF.

Damage? Im pretty sure a metal hose would do more damage than it is doing now. Think of the small laser and how powerful it is per ton, and the MG should be in a similar spot.

[LethalMezzle]

How many times must it be said before people get the point?

Machine Guns are in the game, and there is no reason to use them in their current state. There is no need to include a useless weapon, therefore PGI must either:

A - buff them to make them actually useful and justify their inclusion
B - remove them

And since they are not doing B, that leaves A.

Personally I'd like them to do the same damage vs. armoured sections as they do now, but with 4x damage (subject to nerfing) against unarmoured sections.

[shintakie]

LethalMezzle, on 15 December 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

How many times must it be said before people get the point?

Machine Guns are in the game, and there is no reason to use them in their current state. There is no need to include a useless weapon, therefore PGI must either:

A - buff them to make them actually useful and justify their inclusion
B - remove them

And since they are not doing B, that leaves A.

Personally I'd like them to do the same damage vs. armoured sections as they do now, but with 4x damage (subject to nerfing) against unarmoured sections.

You'd need far far more than 4x damage to unarmored sections in order to make the MG worth takin if you don't buff its actual damage.

[Omni Tek]

Franklen Avignon, on 12 December 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

OMG SOMEONE MISSPELLED A WORD ON THE INTERNET!

Not so much misspelled as used a wrong word entirely.