123 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

MacKoga, on 12 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

I'm waiting till either community warfare is launched, or stability/beta-ness is significantly improved before I tell my friends to check it out.

I'd rather have them be excited and stay, than to be disapointed and leave the game before it becomes what we're expecting.

Id like to see pgi/igp MENTION CW. I havent seen that since like august

[Rifter]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

putting money into the game to skip the horrible grind doesnt work with new players (especially non MW fans)



hey Im not the only one that thought of that

Yeah, it might work for new players if they were given a chance to see what the game has to offer. Then they might lay down some cash. But right now they simply do not, they are thrown to the sharks with the MM putting them against vets in maxed out mechs and even vs organized 4 man teams on voice, hell even 8 man teams sometimes with sync drops. The new players are literally being used as farming food for the vets and the small groups.

I'll be honest, im stunned any non BT fan would even consider playing this game. If it wasnt for BT name i wouldnt have made it past my first day playing this game and i would have left.

Edited by Rifter, 12 December 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Lanessar, on 12 December 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to play the game because it's CoD with robots.

However, their development path had correct priority. The tutorial is an important point to any game. You get a feel for movement, how the weapons respond, what aiming does. You can't tell me that would not drastically improve player retention rates here.

That being said, I didn't run into the bugs you did. I logged in, I found three matches, played, didn't enjoy the gameplay (again) and left.

The only reason I bring these points up is that Hawken followed a correct development path for new player retention. MW:O sadly did not, and I'm sure their numbers reflect it. Were I not invested in this title, or if I had missed the 2009 video, or plain didn't care, I wouldn't be posting here. I'd be playing TL2 or beta testing another game.

I wonder what the numbers ARE. Id like to see a online count like they have in EVE.

[Keeko]

It might not be that new players are just giving up and leaving, consider this, I've been playing for just short of a week now, about 5 or 6 days. My first day I rotated through the trails getting a feel for the various roles/weight classes, I was able to purchase my first Jenner within about 4-6 hours of gameplay and as much as I didnt like it (not a light person myself) I stopped using the trails completely because I wanted to start earning xp. The next day (or maybe the day after that, I forget) I was able to purchase a Hunchback and now I just bought my first Atlas. Point being, it doesn't really take too long to make the cbills to purchase your own mech. Just because someone doesn't have a trail mech doesn't mean they're not new.

[Dark Severance]

Lanessar, on 12 December 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

However, their development path had correct priority. The tutorial is an important point to any game. You get a feel for movement, how the weapons respond, what aiming does. You can't tell me that would not drastically improve player retention rates here.

I don't see anything over complicated about the movement of how the responds responding. Understanding how each weapon works, sure but that is not covered in any tutorial, that is covered by reading about the game. The only difference from other Mechwarrior games is the second reticle which takes at most 2-4 games to get used too sure. However when I brought my friends and told them about the game, I already gave everyone the run down. There isn't like there isn't enough stuff out there. Most people I simply said download and play Mechwarrior 4, its free and its really all the training you need.

Do people seriously do tutorials and get something meaningful from it? I can't even remember the last game I used a tutorial for. Everything was usually described well enough in the instruction book, instruction video or just simply by looking at the keymap/controls. Maybe its FPS thing since I don't play those usually, but even Halo I didn't need a tutorial.

I just can't see the "new players just don't get the game, but if they had a tutorial they would". Tutorials actually don't teach team work or how to actually communicate with other players.

Edited by Dark Severance, 12 December 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[Dark Severance]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 December 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

I wonder what the numbers ARE. Id like to see a online count like they have in EVE.

But the actual numbers don't matter... at least not now. Nothing is going to matter until Community Warfare is in the game. At that point I'd consider the game closer or pretty close to something that is launch worthy, until then everything is beta until then. Everything in game doesn't really come to fruitiion or have any real cause and effects until Community Warfare.

[Lanessar]

Dark Severance, on 12 December 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I don't see anything over complicated about the movement of how the responds responding.

Stopped reading here. Sorry, but what? I'm pretty fluent as a gamer, and throughout closed beta, it took me at least 5 matches to get my head around what did what, and why the mech was doing what it did.

I at least took time to read up on the forums. 90% of your "average" customer base (mouth breathers as it were) won't do that. Those are PGI's paying customers flushed. I introduced six friends to this game, MW fans, all. They all left.

Do you want this to be a niche game?

Edited by Lanessar, 12 December 2012 - 09:02 PM.

[FunkyFritter]

Keeko, on 12 December 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

My first day I rotated through the trails getting a feel for the various roles/weight classes, I was able to purchase my first Jenner within about 4-6 hours of gameplay and as much as I didnt like it (not a light person myself) I stopped using the trails completely because I wanted to start earning xp.

This is the experience for new players in a nutshell. No wonder most of them don't stick around.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Dark Severance, on 12 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

But the actual numbers don't matter... at least not now. Nothing is going to matter until Community Warfare is in the game. At that point I'd consider the game closer or pretty close to something that is launch worthy, until then everything is beta until then. Everything in game doesn't really come to fruitiion or have any real cause and effects until Community Warfare.

funny given my thread asking about CW was getting guys asking

Windies, on 11 December 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

No offense but, what about Community Warfare would change the customization or the game mechanics of how the game is played? I mean if CW was in right now, you would have a big map telling you why you are fighting, who you are fighting for, and where. But the game would still be the same. Sure you would be fighting under a house, or a merc unit, or as a lone wolf. The core of the game would still be the same, so it would still be ECM Warrior Online.

Lanessar, on 12 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Do you want this to be a niche game?

EVE is a "niche game". 300k+ accounts = niche. 300k+ individual players in this game would be what Id call a rousing success at this point
so yeah, niche is sounding good

[Dark Severance]

Lanessar, on 12 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

it took me at least 5 matches to get my head around what did what, and why the mech was doing what it did.

Have you played Chromehounds, Mechwarrior or any mech game? That was all I needed, it was pretty easy. It took me 1 match to go "Why are my lasers firing a different direction", then see the O and match those with the weapons firing and the + and match those with the other weapons and it was like "OH!". Torso twisting, WASD movement was pretty simple. Although to be fair, it took me awhile to get used to using WASD.... I am usually a joystick or console controller player.

Now I'm not saying I'm smarter than the average gamer. I'd say I am the average gamer. For someone like my wife and dad, they couldn't pick up the movement. I loaded up Mechwarrior 4, made the hotkeys match MWO and they picked it up quickly. But I wouldn't say they were the target market either, they were just playing because I was.

Lanessar, on 12 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

I at least took time to read up on the forums. 90% of your "average" customer base (mouth breathers as it were) won't do that. Those are PGI's paying customers flushed. I introduced six friends to this game, MW fans, all. They all left.

Do you want this to be a niche game?

You are right the most players won't read anything... just like most players would also skip a tutorial. All my Mechwarrior fans I introduced are still playing. They even got their friends to play as well. It's pretty much what we talk about on Magic Fridays at the game store or WoW TCG Sunday's.

To be fair... it is a niche game. Always will be and will continue to be. Do I want to grow? Obsolutely. However I also know I don't expect to see any real growth until it gets out of Beta. And it will continue to be in Beta until there is Community Warfare. Until then, there really isn't a game at all. It is just match making, learning to practice and get some grinding in to get a leg up for when Community Warfare finally gets added. Until then... there will be nothing they can add to this game to make it really grow because there is no substance without it.

[Lanessar]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 December 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

EVE is a "niche game". 300k+ accounts = niche. 300k+ individual players in this game would be what Id call a rousing success at this point
so yeah, niche is sounding good

Niche isn't the term I'd use for EVE. Of the 22 developers and 5 QA people I work with, almost ALL of them have EVE accounts. I've never played. Of my friends fro mthe last software development company I worked for, 18/21 had EVE accounts and still send me invites to the darn game.

[StraferX]

I started ploaying not to long ago like Keeko did, I as well played with the trial mechs for several hours and had enough to buy my first one I got the Jenner. The next day I bought a Cn9-YLM and with in a weeks time have brought the entire Canturion class to master now to farm GXP. For the love of Pete I sure will not be putting much more cash into the game.

Honestly the game was great for new people to jump in and get a good feel for the game and descide to stick around through the beta, that is until they implemented EMC. EMC has caused such an imbalance that a new guy has no clue that wow suddenly there are 5 mechs right on top of him and BAM, panic mode/death. I for one am a patient man and realize that in beta things get dropped in and need work, however manhy new people come in and flee.

I am one of those you see running around in a trial mech from time to time, they are fun and when skillfully piloted can be quite beasty to those over polished insanely modified tanks that have zero pilot skills.

[Dark Severance]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 December 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

funny given my thread asking about CW was getting guys asking

To a degree I get what they are saying. But at the same time those types of posts don't mean anything. WoW wouldn't be WoW, if there wasn't Horde and Alliance, raiding. Guild Wars 2 wouldn't be GW2 if there wasn't PVP. Those are end game mechanics that make the direction for a game. Community Warfare is that for MWO. Otherwise, everything else is just mech matches. Might as well do ladder games with Mechwarrior 2/4 again instead. But Community Warfare does change things, it effects players... but I'm also old school, old school Multiplayer Battletech 3025 back in the GEnie days and even when EA tried to reboot it. That is what made the game, without that, there isn't a game which is why this is "beta" and will continue to be called that. They do however need people to actual test things as they implement things in waves, so they can see the progression of checks and balances within the game, playerbase and how things end up with min/max based on settings. This lets them tweak things as they need to and when they need too.

And we've seen this with every semi-big patch when there is a new "OMG this is OP" thread. First it was laser boats, then it was super fast mechs, then dual gausses, then LRMs, then AMS, then ... and then.. and then... and now its ECM. That is oddly enough how you know the game is actually progressing and moving forward.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Lanessar, on 12 December 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

Niche isn't the term I'd use for EVE. Of the 22 developers and 5 QA people I work with, almost ALL of them have EVE accounts. I've never played. Of my friends fro mthe last software development company I worked for, 18/21 had EVE accounts and still send me invites to the darn game.

EVE is niche in that its specifically spaceships only and full open world PVP
how many accounts does niche equal? 100k? 10k? Or does the game need to not be played by the people YOU know?
What IS the definition here?
Better yet, are the original MW games niche?

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 12 December 2012 - 09:20 PM.

[Lanessar]

Dark Severance, on 12 December 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

Have you played Chromehounds, Mechwarrior or any mech game? That was all I needed, it was pretty easy. It took me 1 match to go "Why are my lasers firing a different direction", then see the O and match those with the weapons firing and the + and match those with the other weapons and it was like "OH!". Torso twisting, WASD movement was pretty simple. Although to be fair, it took me awhile to get used to using WASD.... I am usually a joystick or console controller player.

I think you're projecting your own bias as a gamer onto what the developer's priorities should be, based on your experience. "Most players" is what they need to increase the player base. I can tell you, from testing countless software products, MMOs and online games, this one (of any of them) needs a tutorial.

Quote

Now I'm not saying I'm smarter than the average gamer. I'd say I am the average gamer. For someone like my wife and dad, they couldn't pick up the movement. I loaded up Mechwarrior 4, made the hotkeys match MWO and they picked it up quickly. But I wouldn't say they were the target market either, they were just playing because I was.

You're not. You're the average MW player. I respect that, and you. Not naysaying your viewpoint with the above. We will, however, need fresh blood, and it's possible with a little additional work from the devs. And it's desperately needed.

Quote

You are right the most players won't read anything... just like most players would also skip a tutorial. All my Mechwarrior fans I introduced are still playing. They even got their friends to play as well. It's pretty much what we talk about on Magic Fridays at the game store or WoW TCG Sunday's.

To be fair... it is a niche game. Always will be and will continue to be. Do I want to grow? Obsolutely. However I also know I don't expect to see any real growth until it gets out of Beta. And it will continue to be in Beta until there is Community Warfare. Until then, there really isn't a game at all. It is just match making, learning to practice and get some grinding in to get a leg up for when Community Warfare finally gets added. Until then... there will be nothing they can add to this game to make it really grow because there is no substance without it.

I honestly don't think so. I started at MW4, personally, then played the earlier titles. Beta is fine. I'm just saying that the Hawken developers set out to make a game that could easily attract players with their dev path. It's also the successful dev path for the other two titles I worked on (and those already had your money to start with).

I disagree that there is no substance without CW. Is it needed? Yes. But it's not neccessary to get and keep players interested. Make a whole new generation of Mechwarriors.

In order to do that, the dev staff really should take a page on new player experience and player retention from Hawken, because it will assist them in getting and retaining players.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Dark Severance, on 12 December 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

To a degree I get what they are saying. But at the same time those types of posts don't mean anything. WoW wouldn't be WoW, if there wasn't Horde and Alliance, raiding. Guild Wars 2 wouldn't be GW2 if there wasn't PVP. Those are end game mechanics that make the direction for a game. Community Warfare is that for MWO. Otherwise, everything else is just mech matches. Might as well do ladder games with Mechwarrior 2/4 again instead. But Community Warfare does change things, it effects players... but I'm also old school, old school Multiplayer Battletech 3025 back in the GEnie days and even when EA tried to reboot it. That is what made the game, without that, there isn't a game which is why this is "beta" and will continue to be called that. They do however need people to actual test things as they implement things in waves, so they can see the progression of checks and balances within the game, playerbase and how things end up with min/max based on settings. This lets them tweak things as they need to and when they need too.

And we've seen this with every semi-big patch when there is a new "OMG this is OP" thread. First it was laser boats, then it was super fast mechs, then dual gausses, then LRMs, then AMS, then ... and then.. and then... and now its ECM. That is oddly enough how you know the game is actually progressing and moving forward.

my whole point in that thread I made was that CW was the thing that DREW me to the game. Youre preaching to the choir here.

[Lanessar]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 December 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

EVE is niche in that its specifically spaceships only and full open world PVP
how many accounts does niche equal? 100k? 10k? Or does the game need to not be played by the people YOU know?
What IS the definition here?

"Niche" is any game that isn't widely known, advertised, or has a small segment of customers. I can't personally judge what "small segment of customers" means in the MMO business (actually, I know exactly what industry standard is, but since that was EA's specific definition, I won't go into that here), but let's shoot for 250,000 customers as a low.

MWO is certainly not widely known. Heck, die-hard BT and MW fans had no clue about it.

Go to a gaming shop where BT is still played. Ask the guys there if they know about MW:O. I did. Startling result.

[Lycan]

zverofaust, on 12 December 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

I've noticed the past couple of days that I'm usually the only person in every match playing with a Trial Mech. I think a couple of times I saw one other person, but yeah. Where are all the new players?

From reading the forums, the gist I'm getting is that whenever they had a problem or an issue, they were told "It's beta! if you don't like it, leave!"

And they did . . .

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Lanessar, on 12 December 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

"Niche" is any game that isn't widely known, advertised, or has a small segment of customers. I can't personally judge what "small segment of customers" means in the MMO business (actually, I know exactly what industry standard is, but since that was EA's specific definition, I won't go into that here), but let's shoot for 250,000 customers as a low.

MWO is certainly not widely known. Heck, die-hard BT and MW fans had no clue about it.

Go to a gaming shop where BT is still played. Ask the guys there if they know about MW:O. I did. Startling result.

I think even 250,000 would be an outstanding success at this point

Lycan, on 12 December 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

From reading the forums, the gist I'm getting is that whenever they had a problem or an issue, they were told "It's beta! if you don't like it, leave!"

And they did . . .

point

[Lanessar]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 December 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

I think even 250,000 would be an outstanding success at this point

point

I think MW:O has about 500K registered accounts. I truly do.

Of the active players, just based on my beta days (before they took the counters out) and on the number of players I see recur in a match, I'd guess the online number at around 1500-3000 at any given moment, probably close to 40,000 active accounts (seeing as I can't play every day, and I assume others can't as well).

I think the number of actively "paying" players is pretty low due to their layer retention, and their lack of new player friendliness, as well as their pricing schema.

But none of what I think are actual facts. It's all surmise, and I doubt anyone from the staff will confirm, deny or even comment on the numbers at this point (better or worse).