143 replies to this topic

[Leimrey]

The problem is not ECM or streaks. Both of them have hard counters. Streaks are hard countered with ECM while ECM is hard countered by more or equal amount of ECM OR having direct fire weapons that do not require lock on AND having half a brain.
The true problem is the horrendous netcode. The moment it's fixed and the lag is reduced to acceptable levels, the battle longevity of any light mech will be equal to the amount of time he needs to be spotted by a laserboating enemy.
Also, I support the idea of ECM suites being more effective in counter mode, than in disrupt. However, I don't think that making one ECM suite being able to counter all enemy ECM in the area is a good idea. At least make it so that each ECM suite is able to counter 2 ECM suites in disrupt mode, not more.

[Bagheera]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 December 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

Hey Im just calling it out before someone else does it like they always do in these situations. Ive seen more "this aint TT" troll answers in this place than I can count

*sigh*

So then, everyone who thinks that game balance is more important than blind obedience to TT numbers is a troll?

I'm just looking for clarity here. Is your assertion then that the pure TT numbers and all stock mechs would make for a flawlessly balanced game?

Setting aside ECM for a moment, because your comments are more broad than that, do you *really* think that CBT is "balanced?"

Leimrey, on 15 December 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

The true problem is the horrendous netcode. The moment it's fixed and the lag is reduced to acceptable levels, the battle longevity of any light mech will be equal to the amount of time he needs to be spotted by a laserboating enemy.

On the subject of ECMs - this. If netcode was up to snuff the ECM complaints would mostly evaporate - save for the QQ of the unreasonable folks for whom no amount of changes will satisfy them. Furthermore, if netcode was up to snuff we could have collisions back, and all those little leg-humping noobs piloting light mech FoTMs would be in for a very, very rude awakening because they've spent all this time developing a piloting style that will put them on their backs every 5 seconds when collision code is fixed.

Seriously, light pilots. You should really take the time now to learn how to dogfight without charging a larger mech and exploiting that you pass right through it. That's going to get you killed fast in the, hopefully not too distant, future.

Until then, I'm just going to keep taking out your leg and then blasting you in the face. Until netcode is fixed, leg ALL the lights. Even if you could stack all the ECM you want, it wouldn't protect you from large caliber ballistics when you're limping along on half a leg.

Edited by Bagheera, 15 December 2012 - 09:49 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Leimrey, on 15 December 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

The problem is not ECM or streaks. Both of them have hard counters.

LRMs had in game counters before they got nerfed too but its easier to come here and qq to get the devs to break the things you cant be asked to learn how to avoid and thats how this game goes

Bagheera, on 15 December 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

*sigh*

So then, everyone who thinks that game balance is more important than blind obedience to TT numbers is a troll?

I'm just looking for clarity here. Is your assertion then that the pure TT numbers and all stock mechs would make for a flawlessly balanced game?

Setting aside ECM for a moment, because your comments are more broad than that, do you *really* think that CBT is "balanced?"

yes thats EXACTLY what that means

[CDLord HHGD]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 December 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

in before:

this isnt TT stop using TT books as reference

This game wouldn't exist if it weren't for TT. Now, TT isn't the end all be all of MWO, but it lays a significant foundation to build from.

[Orzorn]

Bagheera, on 15 December 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

*sigh*

So then, everyone who thinks that game balance is more important than blind obedience to TT numbers is a troll?

I'm just looking for clarity here. Is your assertion then that the pure TT numbers and all stock mechs would make for a flawlessly balanced game?

Setting aside ECM for a moment, because your comments are more broad than that, do you *really* think that CBT is "balanced?"

You extrapolated way too much out of his post. He's saying that way too many folks come in and don't bother to actually argue the point of quoting the TT (it might be more balanced, better flavor, good background for a mechanic, whatever), and instead just say "oh why don't you just go play the TT!". It's essentially name calling.

Besides that, it provides an excellent background for what ECM should really do...like not stop SSRMs or affect TAG in any way.

[Bagheera]

Full Disclosure: I have precisely zero mechs in my garage that can mount ECM.

Orzorn, on 15 December 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

You extrapolated way too much out of his post. He's saying that way too many folks come in and don't bother to actually argue the point of quoting the TT (it might be more balanced, better flavor, good background for a mechanic, whatever), and instead just say "oh why don't you just go play the TT!". It's essentially name calling.

Besides that, it provides an excellent background for what ECM should really do...like not stop SSRMs or affect TAG in any way.

Actually, I am basing that question on his post history which has generally been on the more irrational side of "adherence to TT." The one that is equally irrational as the folks who behave as you describe. This is demonstrated by the "in before" post. Pretty tired of both sides of that pointless argument, and the "in before" post just serves to cheapen the thread and derail useful discussion. Something I would normally ignore, but felt like calling the OP on it. People need to be called on that stuff from time to time, myself included.

__________


I am not seeing the ECM/no-ECM dichotomy in game that people are complaining about here. Honestly, if they just made NARC an ECM counter and gave it a decent duration (or a dmg based one) a lot of this would go away. (netcode problems notwidthstanding) The people most butt-hurt about ECM are former streak-boaters. Which is ironic because the biggest complaint about ECM is that they are running streaks. I am not making that assumption about you personally, but there are many very vocal ECM opponents on the forums who I have witnessed running streak A1s repeatedly in game.

Netcode is the kicker. ECM would just be another mild annoyance if fast mechs actually appeared to be in their actual location. They can be hit now, but it is vastly more difficult and fraught with random elements. I kinda wish people would **** about ECM for a bit, let the performance improvements from 12/18 and hopefully more in January play out, and then see how it plays out.

Also, the "Command Path" pilot skills of UAV drone and Satellite Sweep are not in the game. (Dev Blogs: Role Warfare Part 2) What if they are designed to be ECM counters? So we nerf ECM and then add hard counters? That always works out well. Their timing is probably way off, but I would hate to see ECM become useless because of too many tears and it had to be nerfed to oblivion before the full array of options to counter it were available.

Edited by Bagheera, 15 December 2012 - 10:04 AM.

[Onyx Rain]

Virtusx, on 14 December 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Yep, saw them too. yet, another group of 4 that likes to min/max and run over people.

While I agree the using ecm/light mechs that take reduced damage because of netcode/hitbox/and no knockdown is kinda cheap...the running of min/max builds itself doesn't bother me.

I don't get why people people think they should be able to take crap builds into battle and pawn everyone. If your team is full of mostly crap builds/ones that don't compare to another teams...you should expect to loose.

[Orzorn]

Bagheera, on 15 December 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Full Disclosure: I have precisely zero mechs in my garage that can mount ECM.

ECM weighs 1.5 tons.

It does that ENTIRE LIST OF THINGS that are on the command chair post.

Do you not see anything wrong with this? Do you not see the insane, disproportionate power that ECM provides? Cloaking, target breaking, jamming, ruins the usability of artemis, SSRMs, LRMs, even its supposed counter, TAG, is reduced in effectiveness when in the bubble, as well as completely negating NARC.

Note that it only did several of those things in the TT. It helped you hide, and it stopped artemis, other ECM, C3 computers, and NARC. It didn't stop TAG. It didn't stop SSRMs. It also didn't affect LRMs, but they didn't lock on in the TT so that is a totally MWO related issue (something I don't think is as much of an issue because you can still dumb fire LRMs).

ECM gives too much bang for its tonnage right now.

As for the rest of your post, netcode is a big issue, I can agree with that. When the lifetime of an ECM system is increased ten fold because its on a lagshielded Raven, it makes that system that much more effective.

Edited by Orzorn, 15 December 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[Secundus]

Royal Flush, on 14 December 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Ok, things are starting to really get ridiculous.

Game after game I am seeing (and losing) to 4 or more ECM scout mechs on the opposing team!

These guys come decked out with streak missles and with the Anti-missle nerf not shooting down streaks there's no way to stop em.

Am I the only one seeing these pre-mades dominating the PUGs this way?

So instead of everyone dropping in streak-catapults they are dropping in streak ECM scouts with the lag shield they are tearing everything up.

Yes I'm seeing this frequently as well. I was doing some 4 mans about a week ago and we ended up grouped a couple times with 4 man ECM squads on our team and couldn't help but mock them for the cheesiness that is.

[StalaggtIKE]

Bagheera, on 15 December 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Also, the "Command Path" pilot skills of UAV drone and Satellite Sweep are not in the game. (Dev Blogs: Role Warfare Part 2) What if they are designed to be ECM counters? So we nerf ECM and then add hard counters? That always works out well. Their timing is probably way off, but I would hate to see ECM become useless because of too many tears and it had to be nerfed to oblivion before the full array of options to counter it were available.

OK, you made a good point. Perhaps the UAV drone or Satellite Sweep may be direct ECM counters, however how does that make carrying 1.5 ton piece of equipment a disadvantage? If I run into a UAV drone, then my 1.5 ton is now useless. DARN. Instead of this now nullified ECM, I loss out on 1 ton of ammo, or 1 small laser w/ heatsink, hardly a bad trade-off. The point is, there is no reason not to equip ECM. I bet if the next patch opened ECM for all mech chassis, all pre-mades, that can afford ECM, will have it. There are no disadvantages.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 15 December 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[Codejack]

Bagheera, on 15 December 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Honestly, if they just made NARC an ECM counter and gave it a decent duration (or a dmg based one) a lot of this would go away. (netcode problems notwidthstanding)

That would help some, but I would still feel that ECM is overpowered.

Bagheera, on 15 December 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

The people most butt-hurt about ECM are former streak-boaters. Which is ironic because the biggest complaint about ECM is that they are running streaks. I am not making that assumption about you personally, but there are many very vocal ECM opponents on the forums who I have witnessed running streak A1s repeatedly in game.

Insults aside, you are basically talking about me. Yes, I ran a streakcat (not to mention every other named build out there, or so it seems), and now that ECM has neutered it, I run an ECM Commando with 3xSSRM2.

My gameplay has not changed much; I win about as often as I did before, get about as many kills as I did before. From the perspective of, "You're biased because it made you change," I refute any such claim; I just built a mech to suit the new rules.

So, when I tell you that ECM is just ridiculously overpowered, my intent is not to alter the game to favor my style of play, but to improve the game. What should have been a partial counter to a couple of game mechanics has been implemented as blanket immunity for the side with more ECM against an entire class of weapons.

[hammerreborn]

Codejack, on 14 December 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

I never saw an all-streakcat drop; I'm sorry, that would be stupid, since you would be facing at least 4 other heavies, and SSRMs are NOT the best weapons for that, by a long shot.

I have seen 4+ ecm mechs, and combinations of multiple ecm mechs and streakcats, though.

Streaks were a small problem. ECM is a big problem.



+1

It's funny because you act like all 4 of those ECM mechs aren't running streaks.

[Redoxin]

AvatarofWhat, on 14 December 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

PGI should just make it so 1 ECM counters all ECM in the vicinity. Then it would not matter as much if the enemy is running 4 ecm lights because the 1 ecm atlas or raven on your pug team gives you some precious time to lock on with lrms and streaks and destroy those lights.

Very good idea. This might actually be the solution!

[Raidyr]

Going tunnel on Frozen Colony and seeing three ECM Streakmandos is true horror.

[Elkarlo]

No no Change to ECM.

Learn to Play get a Com-2D by yourself.

Don't Change my C-Bill Making System.
1M C-Bill per Hour minimum with Com-2D with ECM and around 70% Wins.
With my LRM boat i had a far worse Win Lose Ratio and Earnings were insanly low.
Without Premium i wouldn't be able to afford to Field it.


So please don't Change ECM, simply do it like the other,
get yourself a 2,5M Mech and get the C-Bills in 2 Hours playing out. (or 4 if no Prem)
After that pure Bonus C-Bills and no need to use Premium !

We should ALL do this this Weekend.

Btw Cheapest build to Mantain and Field Successfully:
Com-2D, ECM, 3x SSRM2, 1x M-Laser, 2x SSRM Ammo, Endosteel.
Repaircosts 12-19k, does lot of damage and is extremly Cheap.
Of course you have to disable autorearm, the Reason for 2 Tons Ammo and Endosteel.
With them you can go 75% wellfare Ammo.

The M-Laser is your Cash earning Gun: You need to shot as much possible Mechs with one hit. Each new Mech one time tagged with the M-Laser brings 2K when he wents down. So the M-Laser is for getting Kill Assists.

Edited by Elkarlo, 15 December 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[Greyfyl]

Wait....I thought players were only doing premades vs pugs because there was no 8v8 in the game.

Surely with 8v8 now implemented all those elite players would have gone to play competetive matches instead of being subjugated to having to play with us mere puggies.

[StalaggtIKE]

Elkarlo, on 15 December 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

No no Change to ECM.

Learn to Play get a Com-2D by yourself.

Don't Change my C-Bill Making System.
1M C-Bill per Hour minimum with Com-2D with ECM and around 70% Wins.
With my LRM boat i had a far worse Win Lose Ratio and Earnings were insanly low.
Without Premium i wouldn't be able to afford to Field it.


So please don't Change ECM, simply do it like the other,
get yourself a 2,5M Mech and get the C-Bills in 2 Hours playing out. (or 4 if no Prem)
After that pure Bonus C-Bills and no need to use Premium !

We should ALL do this this Weekend.

Btw Cheapest build to Mantain and Field Successfully:
Com-2D, ECM, 3x SSRM2, 1x M-Laser, 2x SSRM Ammo, Endosteel.
Repaircosts 12-19k, does lot of damage and is extremly Cheap.
Of course you have to disable autorearm, the Reason for 2 Tons Ammo and Endosteel.
With them you can go 75% wellfare Ammo.

The M-Laser is your Cash earning Gun: You need to shot as much possible Mechs with one hit. Each new Mech one time tagged with the M-Laser brings 2K when he wents down. So the M-Laser is for getting Kill Assists.

This build is so good, PGI may consider it farming. I'm almost afraid to use it.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 15 December 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[Speerit Ward]

Royal Flush, on 14 December 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Ok, things are starting to really get ridiculous.

Game after game I am seeing (and losing) to 4 or more ECM scout mechs on the opposing team!

These guys come decked out with streak missles and with the Anti-missle nerf not shooting down streaks there's no way to stop em.

Am I the only one seeing these pre-mades dominating the PUGs this way?

So instead of everyone dropping in streak-catapults they are dropping in streak ECM scouts with the lag shield they are tearing everything up.

No way to stop them? I can think of several good ways to stop them. I particularly like the "dual gauss" method, though the "6 SRMS 6" method has merit as well.

Edited by Speerit, 15 December 2012 - 10:42 PM.

[Rex Budman]

Royal Flush, on 14 December 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Ok, things are starting to really get ridiculous.

Game after game I am seeing (and losing) to 4 or more ECM scout mechs on the opposing team!

These guys come decked out with streak missles and with the Anti-missle nerf not shooting down streaks there's no way to stop em.

Am I the only one seeing these pre-mades dominating the PUGs this way?

So instead of everyone dropping in streak-catapults they are dropping in streak ECM scouts with the lag shield they are tearing everything up.

These are the same fools who QQ'd about streak-cats. Now they are Streak users and you cannot lock onto them, or efficiently fire at them because of ECM and lag shield.

Wonderful isn't it? You give them an inch, they take a mile.

[Ricama]

Elkarlo, on 15 December 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

No no Change to ECM.

Learn to Play get a Com-2D by yourself.

Don't Change my C-Bill Making System.
1M C-Bill per Hour minimum with Com-2D with ECM and around 70% Wins.
With my LRM boat i had a far worse Win Lose Ratio and Earnings were insanly low.
Without Premium i wouldn't be able to afford to Field it.


So please don't Change ECM, simply do it like the other,
get yourself a 2,5M Mech and get the C-Bills in 2 Hours playing out. (or 4 if no Prem)
After that pure Bonus C-Bills and no need to use Premium !

We should ALL do this this Weekend.

Btw Cheapest build to Mantain and Field Successfully:
Com-2D, ECM, 3x SSRM2, 1x M-Laser, 2x SSRM Ammo, Endosteel.
Repaircosts 12-19k, does lot of damage and is extremly Cheap.
Of course you have to disable autorearm, the Reason for 2 Tons Ammo and Endosteel.
With them you can go 75% wellfare Ammo.

The M-Laser is your Cash earning Gun: You need to shot as much possible Mechs with one hit. Each new Mech one time tagged with the M-Laser brings 2K when he wents down. So the M-Laser is for getting Kill Assists.

Totally disagree, what you want is a Cicada 3M with 4 mla and the slightly bigger engine. No ammo rearm ftw! I've had a couple of matches where my mech is just ready to go after getting 2 kills. Also, since you're a medium your less likely to run into an ECM mech on the other team, thus helping with ECM superiority.

To all those that hate ECM like me, just run it all the time until it becomes obvious even to the devs how much of an effect it has on the game. Seriously, they might get a clue when every match consists of 4 mech variants.