231 replies to this topic

[Captain Midnight]

Khobai, on 15 December 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

http://penny-arcade....ncing-for-skill

This video is relevant for why you need weapons with disproportionately low-skill and high-damage output.

What's wrong with nerfing streaks then? That video you just linked literally said that pressing X three times in a row ought to be powerful, and I completely disagree. The video you linked COMPLETELY disproves anything besides my own premise... Without the noobtube in COD, you'd just have veteran players? Wow, that's a compelling piece of anecdotal evidence!

I completely disagree because the noobtoob is completely arbitrary and winning with it is equally fulfilling to losing with it. That's actually why no one takes COD seriously and the only reason it's a big deal is because of zeitgeist and because no one else on XBOX has either the balls or the execution to challenge them.

Are you really saying that noobtube mechanics are solid, and proven successful, therefore this game should adopt them no strings attached? Because I think that's what you just said.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 15 December 2012 - 05:57 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 05:40 AM, said:

Whereas John Rambo Mallan who thinks this game should be a desert shield simulator except with mechs and except with m16s and except except except except except etc etc etc... John doesn't know what he wants. He wants this game to feel like mechwarrior, and right now to him it doesn't.

If my valid points are invalidated by my other valid points then I hope you die in a fire (in game).

Silly man. I want a MechWarrior Game. If i wanted Something else I wouldn't be stomping the yard in a giant tin can. I read almost all the novels for this genre, from Decision at Thunder Rift, into the MW:DA Stories. You know what the all had in common? Giant Robots waging war with Missiles, Lasers and Ballistic weapons. Fighting at long medium and close range.

John may not know what he wants. But I on the other hand, want the game and stories I have been reading and playing for close to 30 years. It's not there yet. but it is close.

[Chrithu]

I totally agree with the OP that mainly Streaks are the Problem alongside the stacking effect of ECM. Nerf the former and remove the latter and all is fine.

LRM is totally in line. If you fail to get under their min range or stay in cover you deserve to be ripped apart by them. Anyone that ever used LRMs will tell you that it actually is pretty easy to render you useless as a LRM boat. All it takes is a decent light mech or any brwaler that focuses on you within the 180m radius.

One step to nerf Streak will be taken on tuesday when they finally can aim at any body part at random. But I fear that won't be enough to make boats less effective. WHat is needed is to make AMS more efficient vs Streaks. Right now AMS only every now and then is able to kill a single missile before you're hit. That must be ramped up. Streaks have a 100% to hit chance so why AMS doesn't have at least a 50% effiecency vs streaks is just beyond me.

Before the Streaks were "fixed" they've been just fine doing only half damage. They were a nice option if you lacked aim against fast targets but SRM4's and SRM6's were a truely viable options even for those Raven 3Ls and those COMs for their extra punch. Right now the cookie cutter is: You want an easy win, you pack up streaks and ECM and circle a target until it is dead. So if AMS allways killed half the incoming SSRM's thus halfing their damage again everything would be fine again.

[Codejack]

Quick note to the "Everyone with ECM runs SSRMs!" crowd, would you please go out and actually play the game?!

Yes, streaks are good for killing lights, but they are next to useless for killing heavies. My Commando runs 3xSSRM2, and it takes 7-8 volleys to kill an AFK Catapult from behind. If I load 2xSRM6, instead, it takes, well, half of that.

The only situation in which SSRMs are definitively better than SRMs is for those of us with bad netcode lag, and the general opinion on these forums appears to be that we can DIAF.

[Khobai]

Quote

What's wrong with nerfing streaks then? That video you just linked literally said that pressing X three times in a row ought to be powerful, and I completely disagree. The video you linked COMPLETELY disproves anything besides my own premise... Without the noobtube in COD, you'd just have veteran players? Wow, that's a compelling piece of anecdotal evidence!

I completely disagree because the noobtoob is completely arbitrary and winning with it is equally fulfilling to losing with it. That's actually why no one takes COD seriously and the only reason it's a big deal is because of zeitgeist and because no one else on XBOX has either the balls or the execution to challenge them.

Are you really saying that noobtube mechanics are solid, and proven successful, therefore this game should adopt them no strings attached? Because I think that's what you just said.

Yes. That is what I said. And I think everyone would agree the guy that does extra credits for penny arcade knows far more about game design than you do. So we'll just say youre wrong and leave it there.

[Joseph Mallan]

The problem with streaks is that Mechs are allowed to have more than 2 of them. The system isn't the problem, it works fine. just 4 or more of them is tough to beat in close.

ECM is working as the wrong model. Our Guardians are working like Angel models. Guardian ECM does not block Streak missiles. Even then Angel ECM allows Streaks to fire like a standard missile system with missile spread and everything. So if we want to tone down ECM we either make Guardian be Guardian or allow streaks to dumb fire. That is how the ECM systems are supposed to be working IF we are staying true to canon.

[Khobai]

Quote

The problem with streaks is that Mechs are allowed to have more than 2 of them. The system isn't the problem, it works fine. just 4 or more of them is tough to beat in close.

Boating has been the cause of all weapon imbalance. Lasers were nerfed because of swaybacks boating them. LRMs were nerfed because of Heavys and Assaults boating them. SSRMs were nerfed because of the A1 boating them. Gauss/UAC5 was nerfed because of the K2/Cataphract. Whenever a weapon is nerfed its always because it was boated. Which means a penalty against boating should be implemented.

I think the cooldown should increase for each subsequent weapon of the same type you have on a mech.

Edited by Khobai, 15 December 2012 - 06:29 AM.

[Captain Midnight]

We are not staying true to canon Mallon, at all. Not even close. Canon went out the window a LONG time ago and good riddance. I can't believe that with 1.4 heatsinks, non-canon Large Lasers, non-canon LRMs, non-canon SSRMs, non-canon hardpoints, non-canon engines... In fact, what is canon? Names? Mech names? Mech art designs? This game ain't canon and it never will be, it never was, and it's better for it.

[Sug]

Marj, on 15 December 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

Fix the netcode and direct fire weapons will be just as good as streaks.

I know that netcode will be fixed "soon" and all . And that different people at Piranha work at different things at the same time... But really, they need to get this netcode fixed asap.

I have a feeling all this balancing they're doing with weapons is going to go out the window the day they let my shots hit what I have my crosshairs over.

[Tastian]

I started to listen until you said the Dragon 1N was 'no way jose'. Try a 350XL engine, 2 Large Lasers, and 2 SRM4s. Or, instead of 2 SRM4s, 2 SSRM2s. I also think ERLarge Laser has a place as well. I use 2 of them on my DDC. Great for autocorrecting while blasting long range targets. Just split your weapons up into long range and short range for heat handling.

[Wispsy]

I agree pretty much. With the TAG buff then ECM should be totally fine and easily counter-able even for those who are not very good at detecting movement on the screen or swapping to heat vision. SSRMs and LRMs are exceedingly powerful compared to other weapons and the only thing more ECM means is only one team can effectively use the most powerful weapons in the game, hence them winning without a massive skill disparity. Even in the age of ECM my LRMboat tears through people like nothing else.....however using their own TAG is beneath most LRM boaters it seems....which I find fairly odd but oh well, the pure dps that LRMs do, especially considering they very rarely miss and 90% hit ct more then makes up for the travel time, unless you like to LRMboat in the middle of buildings all 20-50m apart, the only real downside is if you are solo then you need to get within 450m to be able to do damage and they may be able to hit you a couple of times at that range before you kill them. As for SSRMs they are a definite timer on the fight, regardless of skill in the majority of cases and a short timer at that, especially for lights. Each ton of ammo for SSRMs gives 50 shots so ammo is no issue compared to other ammo dependent weapons and their heat is negligible. With current lagshield messing up weapon convergence unless they are literally standing still it is almost physically impossible to put out the dps required to kill a light with any other weapons if ones opponent is using SSRMs......and that is assuming you are 100% accurate on every shot and fire on cd. Well if you allow only one team (the one with the most ECMs) to use such a weapon ofc it will appear like ECM is overpowered and gamebreaking....

edit: I would not entirely agree with your weapon list LRMs are very strong, definitely more then "workable" however it is a different style of play to straight sniping and most do not bother to spend the time learning just how different and how that is not always a bad thing.

Edited by Wispsy, 15 December 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

We are not staying true to canon Mallon, at all. Not even close. Canon went out the window a LONG time ago and good riddance. I can't believe that with 1.4 heatsinks, non-canon Large Lasers, non-canon LRMs, non-canon SSRMs, non-canon hardpoints, non-canon engines... In fact, what is canon? Names? Mech names? Mech art designs? This game ain't canon and it never will be, it never was, and it's better for it.

Just so much fail here. Every one of the items you listed has been explained by the DEVs, Whether we like the explanations or not they have been explained. 1.4 sinks (IMO) was a wrong choice and I still say it. Double Armor was cause people would whine and was a good choice, lasers started as Canon and have evolved to try to give them a better feel, SSRMs are in fact working just like TT, Hard points are to keep the game from becoming 40 medium laser Mechs a good choice. the game in general feels like the TT in real time, mostly. MechWarrior is a BattleTech Universe game and because of that it needs to keep a certain feel or it will not maintain the loving fans of a game going on 30 years of play. it would not be better to dismiss that dedicated a fan base. Keeping it exact to TT would be the dumbest idea, but to keep the "feel" of TT in real time is the goal of the DEVs as I read their posts

Now the important question. Are you as mad as your posts sound? Or am I just reading with the wrong voice?

[Captain Midnight]

Everything I posted was explained by the devs as not Canon, with reasoning that expressly states they will not be following canon into the future...

As I said in the past Joseph, when you say SSRM are Canon because they don't miss when you hold a lock... What about when I juke behind a building and they hit the building while they are flying through the air? That wasn't in tabletop, so shut it. Keeping the feel is what I'm advocating as well, but apparently battletech from YOUR view ought to feel imbalanced and completely ******! Whereas from my view it ought to feel fair and competitive....

And yeah, I'm mad as hell. Mad that ignorant fools keep trying to ruin a game I consider mine. I care about this game the way I would care about a lover, if it fails I'll be verrrry disappointed.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 15 December 2012 - 06:46 AM.

[Sky walker]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

WEAPONS

S - God tier

Streaks (OP, if you can use 'em), Artemis SRM4/6 (Short range but OP damage), Gauss (ideal alpha/dps), AC10 (great alpha/dps), Medium Laser (ideal mix of range, damage, and heat), Large Laser (Great mix of range, damage, and heat)

A - Highly Competitive

UAC5 (Jams, but works great when boated), AC20 (sick alpha, high heat), AC2 (high heat high dps), Medium Pulse Laser (nice DPS/heat) , PPCs (high heat high alpha),

B - Workable

LRMs (too hard to land, but good damage), non-artemis SRMs (not enough range), AC5 (not enough dps), LBX10 (not enough range), ER Large Laser (too hot), Large Pulse Laser (too hot, not enough range), Small laser (not enough range), Small Pulse Laser (not enough range), ER PPCS (too hot).

Uh.... seriously? That's your assessment?

Tastian, on 15 December 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

I started to listen until you said the Dragon 1N was 'no way jose'. Try a 350XL engine, 2 Large Lasers, and 2 SRM4s. Or, instead of 2 SRM4s, 2 SSRM2s. I also think ERLarge Laser has a place as well. I use 2 of them on my DDC. Great for autocorrecting while blasting long range targets. Just split your weapons up into long range and short range for heat handling.

Well said. Dragon is one of the most underrated Mechs in a game. I don't play Dragon, but always feel respect seeing it in a hands of pilot who actually knows what's the role of this Mech.

Edited by Sky walker, 15 December 2012 - 06:49 AM.

[Khobai]

Sounds like you would enjoy Hawken more since thats what you seem to want this game to turn into.

[Captain Midnight]

If aiming your guns = hawken then bring it on baby...

Here is a better question, if locking on and 100% hitting is no big deal for streaks, why is it a problem for medium lasers? I think medium lasers should lock on and hit either left, center, or right torso. I mean, why not? SSRM do it and it's totally balanced.

[BigJim]

I agree with much of the OP's sentiment, if not always his mode of expression.
LRMs I think are fine, but Streaks, really, they're silly.


I (ab)use the s**t out of streaks, I use them to win so don't mistake this for some "boo-hoo I got killed by streaks" rant.

In Closed beta (before the 100% damage increase) I used to spend my time in a laser-Jenner, but since the 100% buff? Damn, I run streaks all the way now, I'd be a fool not to.

Don't anyone even try & pretend it's a fight, a streak-armed Light (inc Cicada) vs a non-Streak Light, it's a slaughter.
Streaks do more damage, never miss, and are utterly forgiving of any & all piloting errors, than anything else you could put on a scout mech.
Streaks turn a crap pilot into a devastating one, by virtue of a simple 3-second timer.

All ECM means to any scout worthy of the name is as a mechanism to deny the enemy scout his streaks, while allowing me to use mine.
Nothing else. Everything else ECM does is irrelevant to me.

Incoming LRMs? I just move before they hit me. Always have, always will.
Targeting information? I just tell my team over comms where the bad guys are at whether they blip red or not. Always have.


Of course I only ever run an ECM scout these days, because that's the only way I can use my 100% effective scout killing weapon, and as we all know, killing enemy scouts is the #1 job of friendly scouts.


If I'm not in a Raven and I run into an enemy Raven, then I'm dead before I even know what hit me, because his god-missiles will destroy me.
It's a function of the crappy netcode and 100% damage buff - I know this, as I've played the same role since June & have seen all the changes come & go.

If lasers were worth half a damn (and by this I mean streaks were made way, way less powerful) then there would be a reason to run non-ECM light mechs.
Even the splitting some missiles off to side torsos/legs won't make things better, since those are also extreme weak-points on Lights.
Hell, they'll be more effective if the kit legs & STs as well, without a major damage decrease, or similar downgrade.

But until that happy time when streaks are no longer god-missiles, I'll be in my ECM scout come rain or shine, and that my happy friends is half the problem you are having with the perception of ECM.

Edited by BigJim, 15 December 2012 - 07:18 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

Everything I posted was explained by the devs as not Canon, with reasoning that expressly states they will not be following canon into the future...

As I said in the past Joseph, when you say SSRM are Canon because they don't miss when you hold a lock... What about when I juke behind a building and they hit the building while they are flying through the air(1)? That wasn't in tabletop, so shut it. Keeping the feel is what I'm advocating as well, but apparently battletech from YOUR view ought to feel imbalanced and completely ******! Whereas from my view it ought to feel fair and competitive....(2)

And yeah, I'm mad as hell. Mad that ignorant fools keep trying to ruin a game I consider mine. I care about this game the way I would care about a lover(3), if it fails I'll be verrrry disappointed.

(1) that is something that couldn't happen in TT as once you stopped moving behind a building i could not have a lock on you. So the mechanic used in teh MMO is spot on for a RT game.

(2) Competition in Combat I kill you or you kill me and this is a combat game, if I have an exploitable advantage being Range, Terrain, or more advanced weapons, Then I win, you die, and I get to go have a beer and gloat. If its the other way around, You win, I lose, I go have a beer to make me feel better. Combat isn't supposed to be fair. I'm playing a combat game I expect someone to have better or worse equipment than me, Better or worse skills than me. My goal is to use every advantage I can to stomp you into the ground. If I fail, My fault. Not the weapon, not the opponent, Mine. It's how I can play this game and not cry if lil Cap'n Midnight uses a GaussCat and I can't beat him!

(3)I've been married and in love with the same woman for just shy of 25 years, so I can follow your example. I've also been playing in this Universe(on tables and consoles and Computers) for going on 27-28 years so I have a very deep love for it's survival as well. The point is that this game ISN'T yours. it isn't Mine either. I want the game to be as well rounded as it can be so more people than just me will find something to love. The best way to make this game loved by more people is to let them be able to play it their way.

Players need to be able to have as much fun using Missiles as they can using Lasers. The game has missile boats and laser boats for a reason. People WANT to use them. Take one away and you take away a group who wants to play this game and to love it like you and I do. I want to share this game with everyone and for them to love it just as much as I do.

[Khobai]

Quote

Here is a better question, if locking on and 100% hitting is no big deal for streaks, why is it a problem for medium lasers? I think medium lasers should lock on and hit either left, center, or right torso. I mean, why not? SSRM do it and it's totally balanced.

Because every class of weapon has a different advantages and disadvantages
.

Streaks lock-on, but hit random locations, and use ammo.

Lasers don't lock-on, but can pinpoint specific locations, do their damage over time, but don't use ammo.

Ballistics don't lock-on, can pinpoint specific locations, do lots of damage at once, but use ammo.

[Joseph Mallan]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

If aiming your guns = hawken then bring it on baby...

Here is a better question, if locking on and 100% hitting is no big deal for streaks, why is it a problem for medium lasers? I think medium lasers should lock on and hit either left, center, or right torso. I mean, why not? SSRM do it and it's totally balanced.

Light doesn't bend? SSRMs need more dispersed damage on a target. Lasers are, by default, a much more precise weapon. Streaks need limited in how many we can load (adjust Hard points) and that will put hem where they belong again.