126 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Raidyr, on 16 December 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

How could it have possibly been more powerful than the live version? What we have now is an amalgamation of GECM, AECM, and null signature that weighs 1 ton and takes up 1 slot

yes and link the post where the devs said they had to nerf it first. I missed it

[Dakkath]

Moving this thread to the Off-Topic section.

Also, this is a warning to everyone to keep the replies to each other within the Code of Conduct and Posting Etiquette.

[saber15]

GrabbleRus, on 16 December 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

And in the end LL is just a mode. It doesn't have a future. If you don't get it - you're just a MMO noob.

Yeah, like all of the other mods with no future.

[Dirus Nigh]

MWLL never quite ran well on my computer. It was always a bit sluggish. It also has many problems, the kind that if they were happening on MWO right now the hate on the forums would be all consuming. For example i unloaded about two tons of AC20 ammo into a raven that was standing still with in 100m of me. It took almost no damage at all. This is one of the biggest reasons I stopped playing the game.

I like MWLL. It is a great concept. It is also a mod of another game, there was allot of hard work put into it. If MWLL was a game unto its own it would be truly great. The combined arms aspect to the game really makes it dynamic.

Just remember that the developers of MWLL have been working on it for almost six years now. That is allot of time to refine the mod.

The people who play are a bunch of smart guys too. Ive read through the forums and for the most part they can talk civilly to each other. However the community is a click. Allot of that has to do with the MWLL community being so small, and many members have been playing for almost all of those 5-6 years. Some snobbery is to be expected. Like most game all you have to do to be accepted is don't be an asshat.

They also got George Ledoux to do voice work for them last year.

MWLL is only better if you as a player like it more than MWO. I might re-install it after .7 comes out. It think its a good competitor for MWO as far as battletech fans are concerned.

[Oy of MidWorld]

LL was pretty good. But then MWO came around. The visual quality, design, animations, immersion, the feel of being inside a mech is far better in MWO. Plus the combined arms in LL led to ridicolously overpowered tanks and aerospaces. Entering LL as a new player is harsh, battles tend to be a lot more chaotic than MWO, it is very hard to determine what's going on many times.

Yet the maps of LL are still way bigger (and very creative), which is a good thing. The MWO devs should look very closely at LL, mapmaking and gamemode-wise. Hell, they should hire their team.

But in the end, MWO is shaping up to be the far better game.

[thenightisdark]

Quote

There are three kinds of Double Heat Sinks:
1. Engine heat sinks that come with the engine. These are 2.0.
2. Internal heat sinks that you can put inside the engine. These are 1.4.
3. External heat sinks that you have to put outside the engine. These are 1.4

I seriously do not get the logic. If lights are OP with 2.0 HS, then type (1) HS needs to change. As it stands, only lights run with mostly pure DHS. Assults run a mix of (1) and (2) and (3). Lights only run (1) and a couple of (3).

What gives? On my commando, I get 7 pure, uncut 2.0 DHS. and 3 dirty coumbian 1.4 DHS. 70% pure.
On my atlas, I get 10 pure, uncut 2.0 DHS, but then I have to load up with 8 cut, dirty columbian 1.4 DHS.

Assumption:
More pure 2.0 DHS you have as compared to your total heat sinks, the more DHS do for you.


1) For example, if you have 07 out of 10 pure 2.0 DHS, it is 70% pure DHS.
2) For example, if you have 10 out of 18 pure 2.0 DHS, it is 55% pure DHS.


Which example gets MORE benifit from DHS? 1? Or 2?

[stjobe]

thenightisdark, on 16 December 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

1) For example, if you have 07 out of 10 pure 2.0 DHS, it is 70% pure DHS.
2) For example, if you have 10 out of 18 pure 2.0 DHS, it is 55% pure DHS.


Which example gets MORE benifit from DHS? 1? Or 2?

I'm not sure what you're referring to with the word "benefit" here, but if you're asking which one would benefit most if all heat sinks were 2.0, it's the Atlas.

The Atlas is currently at 87% of what it would be with all-2.0 (31.6 vs 36). The Commando is at 91% of what it would have with all-2.0 (18.2 vs 20).

It's not much of a difference though, just 4%.

[Kobura]

I didn't want this to get jerked to Jettisoned. I wanted this to be feedback on why the game has failed in my eyes, to give the powers that be a chance to see what they're doing, and why I'm doing what I'm doing.

But I guess it looked bad in General Discussion.

[Aresye]

If I had my joystick, I'd be playing MWLL far more often, for the reasons of:

MWLL Pros:
- More tactical gameplay: You had to be smarter than just simply throwing as many ECMs on a steiner scout lance and wiping face against an undertonned team.

- Different classes for balance: Mechs demolished tanks. Tanks took out aerospace. Aerospace took out mechs. Compared to MWO's version of balancing, which is currently: Something's OP? Create new OP thing to counter previous OP thing.

- Huge maps: Took awhile to walk around on, but gave battles a fresh feel to all of them. For the majority of maps, battles could take place anywhere, and everywhere, compared to MWO, in which battles typically happen in the same spots every time, due to them being so small.

- Bigger map selection: No, creating a slightly altered version of an existing map doesn't make it new, MWO.

- Evolving maps: Day turning to night, with associated changes in heating/cooling levels. Differences in gravity (Extremity) or atmospherics (Urban Jungle).

Seeing a trend here?

- Base turrets: Made capturing a base much harder for a single mech. Great control implemented to avoid, "Weeee! I'm running to cap ze base, har har har..."

- Smoother frame rates: MWO may look prettier, but there's some horrible optimization in place, where people like me can have a good machine, yet barely run the game between 20-30fps.

- No server side weapon lag: In MWLL, sometimes an overcrowded server would cause certain weapons to not register, but I'd rather take that over trying to time an AC shot that has an inconsistent, sometimes full 1-2sec delay before firing, in every game.

- Longer games.

- More game modes.

MWLL Cons:
- No mech lab, however you have more of a weapon selection, and mech selection than MWO.

- Funky animations: MWLL is based around having an actual player model inside the cockpit of the mech, which limits what they can do with animations.

- Immersion: MWO definitely makes you feel like your in the cockpit of a walking machine of death. MWLL doesn't quite capture that feel as well.

- Low player base: I think less people play simply because it's a mod, and I'm sure most people talking crap about MWLL here, haven't even played a single game.

- Have to buy Crysis Warhead: It was $10 when I bought it 2 years ago, so it's likely cheaper now, however many people prefer completely free over spending money, however small. Go figure.

- Longer updates between patches: Not exactly a fair comparison, considering the developers for MWO get paid, while those for MWLL do it for free, on their own time.

- More difficult to change controls.

All in all, I don't get the negative viewpoint towards MWLL. It's a solid game that definitely keeps me occupied longer. Playing MWO feels like a chore. I can only play so many matches before I get burned out for the night, because of the lack of maps, lack of gameplay, completely unpredictable patch updates (usually with useless features), more bugs, and a higher load of entitled gamers that have an ADHD level obsession with Call of Duty style upgrades and achievements.

Seeing this topic definitely makes me wish I brought my joystick with me.

[MustrumRidcully]

Klaus, on 16 December 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

How many freakin' time do they have to explain DHS on lights were OP?

How many times do we have to explain that it wasn't the lights with DHS, but Medium lasers, that wer eOP?

Quote

If they put DHS at 2.0 you would just cry about getting owned by lights. So I guess you're just going to cry anyway because it's more important to you to be able to fire all 3 ER PPCs on your trial Awesome 9M over and over. Good riddance.

I think it would be justified to expect the Awesome to behave like the Awesome did in the Table Top. This game is supposedly based on Battletech, and rapidly overheating Awesome's nor rapidly overheating Hunchbacks are not Battletech. That's like making a Startrek game and deciding that the Galaxy Class cannot fly faster than Warp 8... You better create a game where it can reach its top speed and still be balanced.

[MustrumRidcully]

Mechwarrior LL has n o mech lab, that makes me a bit sad.
But that said, for any noob, Mechwarrior Online also doesn't have a mech lab.

And I tend to assume that Living Legends at least worked to ensure that the stock mechs everyone is using will work reasonably well. That cannot be said for MW:O.

Walk, on 16 December 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

That is literally the entire point of heat management. You aren't supposed to fire your weapons as often as possible, you are supposed to pick your shots carefully.

But that's untrue. What you're describing is basically game where weapons have an ammo limit. Like countless of ego shooters have done before Mechwarrior.

Heat Management is about something else. It discourages you firing all your guns together, it encourages you to split your weaopn fire in multiple groups, and it requires you to make a trade-off for a powerful damage output now at the cost of loss of speed, to-hit penalties, ammo explosion risks and shutdown risks.

On a mech design level, it forces you to decide between burst DPS and sustainable DPS, and encourages designs that are a "bit" hot at least, so youn't lack firepower when you need it, but not too hot, so that you can't deliver any reliable performance and a bad round ruins your entire day.

There are plenty canon designs that have no heat problems at all, and there are plenty of canon designs that have heat problems. MW:O only has the Gauss Cat with no heat problems, mechs with some heat problems, and mechs with serious heat problems, with the latter mechs being forced on noobs - instead of giving noobs undergunned mechs, they get overgunned mechs that are difficult and frustrating to run.

MW:O encourages alpha striking all the time for two reasons:
1) There is no penalty for alpha striking on its own. Yes, repeated alpha strikes is bad, but in the table top, the first alpha strike already can cause you a penalty.
2) The weapon convergence system makes it extremely benefitial to fire all your weapons together. If you chain-fire 4 medium lasers, you have to aim each laser. If you fire them in one strike, they all hit the same spot and you need to aim only once.

[MadManJames]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 December 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Like to see which mech you can roll with 40 Heat Sinks making it a non factor. (Are we talking 20 DHS for "40" heat, 40 HS for it, what?)

The AWS-9M rolls 20 DHS, and grossly overheats attempting to use TWO of it's 3 ER PPCs. And Actually will overheat firing just one. Original 10 DHS from engine gets 2.0, don't believe extras installed do. Externals get 1.4. So equivalent of 34-35 HS. And nowhere near enough to make it viable. In fact, not enough to make it truly usable with STANDARD PPCs. (Alpha, ALpha, Shut Down, Alpha, Shutdown, is NOT the way to run a mech)

At max, a mech mounting a 400XL could have 16 internal heat sinks. And externally up to 12 more. Equivalent to what... 45-49 SHS, depending on if ALL engine DHS count at 2.0 or if only the base 10 do (when modding in mech lab, the heat scale seams to indicate only the base 10, but not claiming that is scientific certainty).

Of course you now 2 criticals available in each leg, the CT and one in the head to mount weapons.... IF there is a hard point there. On an ATLAS, being the only mech you could realistically stuff a 400XL in to (Yeah an AWESOME could too, but have pretty much no tonnage for anything else (and that is if the Engine limiter for either allows one that large)

One can in THEORY actually get better heat efficiency with singles, if one could fit a 400XL with it's 16 internal, and then approximately 38-39 external HS. Of course, that again leaves no room or weight, for ANY weapon systems. Of course one could mount a mere 30 external, and be heat neutral on a SINGLE ER PPC.

While in most designs, Heat is not horribly broken, the point is a system that works equally across the board, and allows designs like the AS-7K or AWS-9M to actually be viable, instead of Paper weights if they actually attempt to use half of their armament. I don't think they should be able to alpha with abandon, but neither design even comes close to doiing anything like that.

I don't want to see Laser Warrior Online, but I also WOULD like to see the system at a place where canon builds like a MAD-3D, AWS-8Q or 9M, WHM-6R, etc, are at least remotely viable, (as some of the "most feared" designs in the game), instead of being a liability as they are now.

20 dhs can kep 1 erppc firing till the heat death of the universe, or 2 normal pccs till the sun explodes, go try it yourself.
Also you cant even do math right, 20+(EXTERNAL HS*1.4)= SHS equivalent.(so 26 DHS would be 42.4 SHS assuming you have a 250+, also eninge extras are 1.4 as well), my atlas rs with a 60 damage alpha does 24 DHS with a STD 360 easily, stop lying to make your argument sound better ****** gold.

Tickdoff Tank, on 16 December 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

If you think 200 people playing a game is a good thing then you are delusional. MWO needs thousands, or 10s of thousands to continue. MWLL was quite boring and the graphics are not really that great. They looked good at first, but they are very bland. There was almost no balance and the community was so small that it was pointless. If you enjoy MWLL then you should play it (that is not an attack, it is an observation). If you don't like MWO then you should not play it, possibly give it a break and come back when CW launches.

You attack the game then proceed to say you're not attacking the game, typical gold logic, also mwll has 2-3 servers full on average with 3 times the in-match player count them MWO, and with more variance, even without mechlab MWLL has more loadouts that work.

Tickdoff Tank, on 16 December 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

A 400XL with 10+6 heatsinks would dissipate 10*2+6*1.4=28.4 heat in 10 seconds. 12 additional (external) DHS would add 12*1.4=16.8, for a total of 16.8+28.4= 45.2 or 4.52 heat per second. That is pretty good, but if you are right at the overheat line it would take about 12.8 seconds to completely cool off. (This is with base heat levels from the map and no skills increasing your dissipation).

The ROF that we have with our existing weapons will outstrip your heat dissipation if you try and fire your weapons as often as possible even with DHS.

btw this formula is inefficient, its only useful for engines under 250. 20+(EXHS*1.4) is better

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 December 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

-.- I SAID exactly that how again, when youre saying what I said are you making more sense than I was?
or was it just a need to insult me?

If thats the case, flame away lol

The build pual (or garth i cant remember stated that became totally heat neutral with 2.0 dhs was already heat neutral with shs, pual and garth are just pants on head ******** when it comes to balance.

GrabbleRus, on 16 December 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

Because you've got a 0.5% of this community at best?

And OF COURSE it's easy to balance a game without a mechlab. Lol.
I don't quite get it - are you trolling or just @#$%?

In CB mwo only had 1700 players average, i guarantee that has dropped since OB as i fail to find match solo dropping now, which never happened in CB, not to mention pual and garth are hiding their metrics with such fervour its obvious.

Edited by MadManJames, 17 December 2012 - 05:58 AM.

[MadManJames]

Leetskeet, on 16 December 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Yeah dude you could core an Atlas in three seconds with a Jenner if you had 2.0 DHS

These silly, silly developers.

I laughed at that, since the jenner doesnt have the tonnage to mount anything capable of doing 156 (default atlas armor+internal hp) damage in a single alpha, blantent lies that golds still defend.

Oy of MidWorld, on 16 December 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

LL was pretty good. But then MWO came around. The visual quality, design, animations, immersion, the feel of being inside a mech is far better in MWO. Plus the combined arms in LL led to ridicolously overpowered tanks and aerospaces. Entering LL as a new player is harsh, battles tend to be a lot more chaotic than MWO, it is very hard to determine what's going on many times.

Yet the maps of LL are still way bigger (and very creative), which is a good thing. The MWO devs should look very closely at LL, mapmaking and gamemode-wise. Hell, they should hire their team.

But in the end, MWO is shaping up to be the far better game.

You're 1/5ths right, the mechs look much better, but the design of almost everything else is trash, the animations are terrible (moonwalking atlas, mech ghosting), lagshield mechs and GRIT AND GRAY (or **** yellow) AND BLUR AND BLOOM for all dat immersion, and that crappy trapped-in-a-box fov, with the hunched over forward camera position inside the mech so you cant see most of the inside the mech displays (which mostly don't work btw) for that great "inside a mech feel".

Edited by MadManJames, 17 December 2012 - 06:53 AM.

[Kobura]

Stop referring to any individual or argument as "Gold".

That's literally classism, and it's not good behavior. Just because someone six months ago went "OMG MECHWARRIOR HOW DO I SUPPORT THIS" doesn't mean they have their nose up the developers' ***.

Look at the thread starter (me) for a case in point.

[Pando]

Clay Pigeon, on 16 December 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Yeah, no. Turn off your gold vision.

What? They were released initially at 2.0 during CBT. What a great time it was to laserboat.

[Clay Pigeon]

Pando, on 17 December 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

What? They were released initially at 2.0 during CBT. What a great time it was to laserboat.

No they weren't. Engine heatsinks were 1.0 then, even with the DHS upgrade.

[Pando]

Clay Pigeon, on 17 December 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

No they weren't. Engine heatsinks were 1.0 then, even with the DHS upgrade.

No, they were 2.0 with exception to engine HS's which were 1.0.

Edited by Pando, 17 December 2012 - 10:48 AM.

[Watchit]

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Watchit, on 17 December 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

This xD
And why not to play both?
I like Solaris in MW:LL but I like to cooperate with friends in MWO(You dont have to be on com in MW:LL to win due respawn)

[Oy of MidWorld]

MadManJames, on 17 December 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

I laughed at that, since the jenner doesnt have the tonnage to mount anything capable of doing 156 (default atlas armor+internal hp) damage in a single alpha, blantent lies that golds still defend.


You're 1/5ths right, the mechs look much better, but the design of almost everything else is trash, the animations are terrible (moonwalking atlas, mech ghosting), lagshield mechs and GRIT AND GRAY (or **** yellow) AND BLUR AND BLOOM for all dat immersion, and that crappy trapped-in-a-box fov, with the hunched over forward camera position inside the mech so you cant see most of the inside the mech displays (which mostly don't work btw) for that great "inside a mech feel".

Hmm, i feel like i'm 100% right...

If you add this to your user.cfg, it takes care of that trapped in a box fov...

cl_fov = 80

That'd make me 2/5ths right in your opinion?

Edited by Oy of MidWorld, 17 December 2012 - 01:30 PM.