156 replies to this topic

[Sassori]

Thunderbolt is 65 tons. Thunderbolt has an LRM-15 which is greater range than the ppc's. Do try to keep up old chap

Seriously though, ppc's do not win wars alone.

[Kanil]

Skylarr, on 18 May 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Jenners Leg has 8 Internal and 6 external

The JR7-F Jenner mounts 15 leg armor, the exact same as the WHM-6R Warhammer. The JR7-D Jenner pales so greatly in comparison to the F Jenner that I assumed nobody would think I was talking about it. Similar to how I imagine when I say "Awesome" nobody thinks AWS-8R and goes "Aw yeah, the Awesome with it's two LRM-15s, large laser and 7 heatsinks more than it's maxmimum heat generation!"

But if you'd prefer, how about I say the Warhammer has less leg armor than a Wolfhound?

[RickDiasPK]

Assuming we are discussing WHM-6R vs. TDR-5S in boardgame rules, the Thunderbolt has numerous advantages in this fight. Amusingly enough, range is one of them. PPCs reach out to 18 hexes, while LRMs reach to 21. The Thunderbolt can sit just outside its gun range and force the Warhammer to move up. It's true the Thunderbolt won't win just doing this, but the Warhammer has to decide whether to move up (giving the TDR the chance to move up in sync with it, so there will be less time being 'PPC sniped') or break line of sight (giving the TDR time to move up regardless).

From there, the Warhammer's weak leg armor has been cited by many others and it is a real problem. The TDR has a pretty good chance of knocking it down. Once it goes down, the TDR is very likely to finish the job. WHM's firepower advantage is relatively small here, and becomes a non-issue if the TDR makes it to melee range.

Here's the thing: The TDR is specifically built to be a general purpose unit, the WHM-6R (not so much later versions, but the -6R at least) is a lightly armored (for its size) support platform. Twin PPCs allow it to provide ranged punch indefinitely, but someone has to screen for it. WHMs are at their best when fighting a variety of foes, and accompanied by a bodyguard or a unit that can go way out in front to keep the enemy busy.

The WHM-6R is a worthy design that is useful in many situations. Dueling is not one of them. It needs teamwork in order to shine.

[Chunkymonkey]

Like I said, different roles.

[SilentWolff]

During the TT years of the mid 80's, the Thunderbolt was my bread and butter. I preferred the varient with JJ's. I cant even count the Warhammers I killed with that mech. The Warhammer has 2 big weaknesses IMO, crappy armor and not enough heat sinks. A good T-Bolt player should be able to work that Warhammer over.

[Chunkymonkey]

BASE variants here.

[Steinar Bergstol]

His point stands even with base variants rather than the Eridani Light Horse jump jet version of the 'bolt. The stock 3025 Thunderbolt is more than capable of going up against a stock Warhammer with an even chance or better of coming out on top simply because it is a tougher mech to hurt. Those extra tons of armor do matter. It's just a more durable machine than the 'hammer. Don't get me wrong, the Warhammer is a great machine capable of laying down consistent heavy long range firepower, and during long campaigns where ammo supply is an issue those dual PPCs will be a godsend, whereas the Thunderbolt may find itself eventually relying solely on its large laser for long range firepower. What the Warhammer is not is a frontline brawler designed to soak up punishment the way the Thunderbolt is, Heck, even the much vaunted Marauder at 75 tons can't match the Thunderbolt for armor.

Thunderbolts are, quite simply, wonderful machines, but more reliant on supply lines than the Warhammer (or the Marauder for that matter) to keep its long range firepower up to scratch..

[Chunkymonkey]

Hence MWO role warfare.

[Pulispher]

I think all this discussion is cute and all, but it really just comes down to piloting at this point.

[SideSt3p]

I think it's to hard to give it a straight call. If the Thunderbolt gets inside the minimum range of those PPCs...it's game over IMO. Also, terrain could play a huge part of the engadgement as well as the pilot's skill. If we were to take two GREAT pilots:

Thunderbolt piloted by Patrick Kell.

Warhammer piloted by Yorigana Kurita.

I think it'd be dead even. What does everybody else think?

[Chunkymonkey]

The Warhammer and the Thunderbolt both have great short range cababilities so the Thunderbolts armor would win out. This is assuming that he can get inside the PPC range without being reduced to scrap.

[Beazle]

Christopher Dayson, on 18 May 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Warhammer Leg armor is pathetically light.

This is truth. In TT play, one of the best ways to kill a Hammer is to run right up and kick it in the shins.

If you want the power of twin PPC's, step up to a Marauder.

[Chunkymonkey]

If you really love PPC's, then take the Awsome, or better yet, wait for the Clan Masaraki for 4 ER PPC...And a LRM 10

[Solis Obscuri]

Pvt Dancer, on 18 May 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

I went WH, because the WH can start walking backwards to keep the TB at range, once they get in PPC range. The T-Bolt can slowly whittle it down by running forward, but it will make it harder for either to hit with any consistancy. The only difference is the TB can run (2 heat), fire the LL (8 heat) and LRM 15 (5 heat) and not gain any heat, while the hammer need to fire a single PPC every other turn, as he can't afford the movement penalty at +4 heat.

The average roll on the LRM 15, if it hits, is 9pts of damage (on a roll of 5-8, 12pts on a 9 or 10, and 15pts on a 11 or 12). The T-Bolt is really doing as much damage at range as the War Hammer (17pts vs 20pts). The biggest advantage the Hammer has /is/ that little extra range the PPCs have on the LL, where his PPC shots will be medium and the LL will be long, but that will only last a turn.

I guess I was wrong, I would have to give it to the T-Bolt if the pilot has some discipline and resists alpha striking with everything at the 5-6 hex range, over heating his mech (+8 heat if the LRM, SRM, 3 MLs and LL are fired for a potential 42pts of damage). The WH has the same problem, as a single PPC and two MLs and the 6 pack is 20 heat, but possibly 32pts of damage.

The TB could over-come his heat problem by being careful of what he fires till he gets back down to +7 to +3 heat in a few turns, but it means not firing everything. Same thing for the Hammer... fire 1 PPC, 1 ML and the 6 pack and he is at 17 heat and still doing a possible 27pts of damage at medium range.

Bear in mind you have a +4 penalty to-hit at long range, a +2 at medium range, and a +1 to-hit inside minimum range, +1 additional for every 30m inside minimum range. Unless you have a pilot with very good gunnery skills, hitting at long range is pretty iffy.

Looking at all three weapons:

LRM 15: long 21, medium 14, short 7, minimum 6
PPC: long 18, medium 12, short 6, minimum 3
Large Laser: long 15, medium 10, short 5

The LRM has a tough combination of to-hit penalties, really being at its most effective somewhere between 420m-150m. The Large Laser isn't much good until 300m, and from there on in its gravy.

The PPC, by contrast, is pretty accurate between 360m and 60m, and concentrates damage much better than an LRM launcher. The "9 average" damage is more likely to be 5, 3, and 1 damage, plus the concentrated 8 from the large laser, once that comes into range, as opposed to 10 damage in two places from the PPCs. In a ranged engagement, the Thunderbolt is going to need some lucky roles, or TACs with those LRMs to win. In close, I definitely see it having an edge in durability once the to-hit penalties are relatively small, but staying at range isn't likely to be a good strategy.

[Sassori]

Staying at range is a perfectly fine strategy. If you stay at 13-14 hexes (390-420 meters) then you are medium range for the LRM while still long range for the PPC's, which means the missiles become more reliable than the PPC's, and you add the Long range of the Large Laser for nearly the same damage to hit ratio of the PPC's at that range (8 vs 10) the Thunderbolt wins hands down in that situation. Not only does it have more potential damage, but it also has heavier armor (By a lot).

As far as I know damage works in clusters of 5's, so it'd be 5 and 4 damage, not 5, 3, and 1. Armor is the defining factor in this matchup. As much as I like PPC's they aren't the be all and end all of mech combat.

[Chunkymonkey]

Honestly, any clan 55 ton and up mech would destroy both of these with alpha strikes from a longer range, with better armor, and a better pilot.

[Madtrekie]

It would depend on how good the pilot is and the terrain they fight on.

[Kifferson von doober]

These are both good mechs but i'd definately want to be in the t bolt. One of the things about table top tech is you get to know each mechs weaknesses after a while. Archers run out of ammo, crusaders explode and warhammers legs fall off.

[cinco]

Chunkymonkey, on 21 May 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

If you really love PPC's, then take the Awsome, or better yet, wait for the Clan Masaraki for 4 ER PPC...And a LRM 10

yes, better yet, wait for a mech that will likely not come out until years after the game is released.

do people even think about what they post anymore?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Id have to say TBolt, idk the Tbolt at all but judging by what ive seen of the Tbolt it looks like it has an SRm6? On its shoulder, something big and deadly on its arm and i guess you all say it has better armor, which in MW seems to be your "hitpoints" if you will, and more hitpoints equals overall, tougher mech.. What I know of the Warhammer from MW2 is that it loses its arms disturbingly quick rendering it useless...and those arms are big, long and accessible...so yeah, as much as I love the Whammy, I vote Tbolt.