156 replies to this topic

[Aerik Lornes]

Using the stock models (WHM-6R and TDR-5S) and Regular (P5/G4) pilots I ran a few (I lost track due to the bot misbehaving) Megamek bot vs bot games and, when the bots didn't stand still for 60+ turns and I had to stop the sim, the Thunderbolt won about 3/4 of the time on a 2x2 random board and also on the 1 x 2 Battletech board mirrored. Then I played two games each against the bot (1x2 original Battletech board, mirrored), with me running each design twice, and got the same result. 3 wins for the Thunderbolt (kind of embarrassing since one of those wins was the bot against me). So my way too few for statistical validity expectation is the Thunderbolt will beat a Warhammer about 75% of the time. So I voted Thunderbolt.

[LordKnightFandragon]

What gives the Tbolt the edge over the whammy? Is it the extra armor? Or is it that the PPCs are far to heat inefficient and the PPCs stick the Whammy spending far to much time cooling off rather then firing? Its why I know I dont like PPCs...they are to hot for waht they do.

[Beazle]

LordKnightFandragon, on 22 May 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

What gives the Tbolt the edge over the whammy? Is it the extra armor? Or is it that the PPCs are far to heat inefficient and the PPCs stick the Whammy spending far to much time cooling off rather then firing? Its why I know I dont like PPCs...they are to hot for waht they do.

Well, in tabletop, closing to short (heck, even melee) range is incredibly easy, so the minimum range on PPC's is a bigger factor than most people would think.

The Warhammers heavier firepower doesn't really help it much, because of the heat load. More guns don't help unless you can fire them.

I still say, however, that the biggest flaw of the Hammer is it's leg armor. Movement is key to victory in BT, and getting legged is pretty close to getting killed.

All that said, however, i think in MWO the odds would be closer. There is no melee in the game yet, so no kicking the legs out from under the hammer. Honestly, the game mechanics behind PPC's and LL's may also skew the results. If lasers are a continuous damage source, making it harder to apply all damage to one LOC, and PPC's aren't, that would change things a lot.

[Alfred VonGunn]

Needs 1 more choice.. Depends on Pilots

[Dragon Lady]

The Warhammer is simply a better designed 'Mech overall. It has great ranged attack capability, while its close-in weapons systems are potent. More importanlty, its cooling systems are capable of handling the heat these weapons generate. The Warhammer can close while firing both PPCs without critically compromising its systems, and then cool off while firing all its short range weapons.

Thunderbolt is simply deficient in all categories except armor. Its ability to project force at range is deficient to the Warhammer, and its close-in weapon systems, contrary to popular belief, is also deficient to the 'Hammer. Even more critically, it's cooling systems woefully inadequate for the weapons it carries. Its large laser, while giving it the flexibility to fire at short to moderate range, is too great a temptation for inexperienced pilots who equate "alpha strike" with an "instant win button." The Thunderbolt simply cannot fire it and all its close weapons without frying itself and risking an internal ammo explosion after a few volleys.

In the Battletech Universe, heat kills as surely as an AC/20 to the head. 'Mechs like the Thunderbolt and the Rifleman are overarmed deathtraps that simply don't have the cooling systems to take full advantage of the weapons they carry. If your 'Mech shuts down after three or four volleys, then its simply poorly designed, regardless of how many weapons it carries.

[Steinar Bergstol]

Better designed overall? That I cannot agree with. The Thunderbolt is one of the most solid designs of its era. It has no great weaknesses unless the pilot is an impatient rookie who can't manage his heat. Are you saying that with pilots of equal skill the Warhammer pilot won't be tempted to alpha strike with both PPCs and all his other weapons when you're assuming the Thunderbolt pilot will be using his Large Laser indiscriminately?

Firing all weapons the WHM-6R builds up an excess heat of 14 points. The TDR-5S on the other hand has a max heatbuildup from weapons on alpha strike of 9 excess points, and that assumes it's even firing the LRM 15. Without the LRM the heatbuildup is a mere 4 points, easily managable even for the most inexperienced pilots and exactly the same as a Warhammer who refrains from firing one of its PPCs.

As for close range weaponry, discarding the PPCs, Large Laser and LRM15 the two mechs have a very similar loadout:

TDR-5S:
Machinegun
Machinegun
Medium Laser
Medium Laser
Medium Laser
SRM/2

WHM-6R:
Machinegun
Machinegun
Small Laser
Small Laser
Medium Laser
Medium Laser
SRM/6

Very similar short range damage, which means the significant armor advantage of the TDR is going to count for quite a bit.

Sorry, but the Warhammer is not a better designed mech than the Thunderbolt in my opinion. People just see the dual PPCs and assume it must be better, but as someone has already said, PPCs do not win wars on their own and losing a leg is something you never want to happen to your mech.

[Korbyn McColl]

The Thunderbolt was designed as a general purpose mech. The Warhammer was designed as a mech killer. So all else being equal, I'd give it to the Warhammer, but only by a small margin.

[Dragon Lady]

Sorry, but cooling systems are a part of 'Mech design, and if a 'Mech doesn't have the capacity to sustain a high rate of fire with its weapons, then that part of its design is substandard. The Warhammer has the heat capacity to fire both its PPCs at range, fire its medium-range weapons and a PPC as they come into range, and then and switch to its CIWS when its target closes... all without having its heat rise into the range where severe targeting and movement penalties, threats of shutdown, and ammo explosions raise their ugly head. (In other words, over 12.) Even at close range, it can still fire a PPC off every other round without risking overheating. A Thunderbolt simply cannot say the same. While its heat neutral at long range, adding its large laser to its medium and short-range weaponry will quickly overheat it.

The 'Hammer has an edge in its long-range weaponry (20 vs 17*), in its short-range weaponry (24* vs 21*), and its cooling system, which allows it to bring some of its long-range weapons into play at closer range. The 'Bolt has an edge in its armor.

It isn't the PPCs that make the 'Hammer a better designed 'Mech. It's the cooling systems. The 'Hammer can simply maintain a higher volume of fire without seriously compromising its systems. 'Mechs that have a hard time maintaining a volume of fire while keeping their heat at 12 or below are simply poorly designed. The 'Bolt would've been better off sacrificing its SRMs for an additional two heat sinks, so that its Large Laser can remain in play at closer range.
___________
*on average

[Emperor Cassius]

Always liked the Warhammer. It was the first mech I ever fielded over 20 years ago on the table top and there is nothing like blasting your best friends with PPCs and missles.

[Athena Hart]

Well.. most people are voting the Warhammer, but I'm giving it to the T-Bolt, Used to play the tabletop game alot and the T-Bolt always managed to come out on top, so my money is on the old lopsided mech. (If you guys remember the miniature and drawings it looked lopsided, like it was leaning to one side)

[Steinar Bergstol]

Honestly, I'm not saying the hammer is a bad mech. It's not. It is, in fact, a quite good mech. It's just that the bolt is better.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that the Warhammer runs so very much cooler than the Thunderbolt. Like I said already, if both mechs fire all their weapons then the Warhammer builds up 5 more points than the Thunderbolt, 14 (32 heat - 18 heatsinks = 14) vs. the bolt's 9 (24 heat - 15 heatsinks = 9).

If the Warhammer does not fire either PPC the next round but uses its short range weaponry it will generate 12 heat. At the end of this round it will be at 8 heat (14 + 12 - 18 = 8). If it fires one of its PPCs it will be at 18, and if it fires only a PPC and not its short range weapons it will be at 6 heat.

If the Thunderbolt does not fire its LRM (not unreasonable if you're close enough to use mediums, MGs and SRMs) the next round then it generates 19 heat, bringing it up to 14 (19 + 9 - 15 = 14). Any sensible Thunderbolt pilot will therefore either stagger the use of its Large Laser (bringing the total heat down to 5. Alternately he can refrain from firing a Medium Laser instead and be at 9 heat, one more than a Warhammer who didn't get to fire either of its PPCs. And so on and so forth.

It seems to me in your assumptions you're making the Thunderbolt pilot a rookie who can't manage his heat and the Warhammer pilot experienced with his machine. It is not difficult to keep a Thunderbolt running cool enough to stay out of trouble. Yes, the Warhammer will have a bit of a firepower advantage. That has never been disputed, but the hammer's weak points (its thin armor, particularly in the legs) are so glaring that the Thunderbolt's advantage in this area is a significant factor. Add the possibility of kicks to this mix and the Hammer should never, ever, ever try to close with a Thunderbolt unless he is significantly less damaged than the 'bolt when they first meet up.

In the end it comes down to personal preference I suppose. The Warhammer is a good mech. I've been a fan of it since I first bought the box set with that beautiful machine on the cover back in the late 80's, but given the choice between a hammer and a bolt I will choose to pilot the bolt every time.

Edited by Steinar Bergstol, 23 May 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[Sassori]

Reason doesn't work on fan boys. The Warhammer is 'cooler' looking, and Natasha Kerensky drove one, therefor, it'll win any popularity contest. The Thunderbolt actually /wins/ at range. Stay at 13-14 hexes and the Thunderbolt will win every single time barring bizarro luck.

An LRM-15 and a Large Laser will outdamage two PPC's, since the two ppc's can be kept at long range, while the LRM is at medium range and the large laser is at long range. This means more definitive damage applied to a lesser armored chassis.

People won't see that though, they just see 'Twin PPC' and assume that wins.

Then again, I don't imagine the average person has much real knowledge for tactical situations. A lot of these people have never played the boardgame either.

[Steinar Bergstol]

Now, let's not call anyone fanboys because they like a particular mech. Some may like it simply because it "looks cooler" (I actually disagree with that as well. I love the look of the unseen Thunderbolt), but many probably have plenty of legitimate reasons for liking the Warhammer better, and like I said already personal preference will have a great effect on what mech you prefer in any event. Personally I've never been fond of the Crusader, for example, even if it is, objectively speaking, an excellent machine for its era. I may not agree with their reasons for prefering a Warhammer over a Thunderbolt, but labeling people as fanboys because they have a different opinion than myself would be rather unfair, don't you think?

[Dragon Lady]

Steinar Bergstol, on 23 May 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Honestly, I'm not saying the hammer is a bad mech. It's not. It is, in fact, a quite good mech. It's just that the bolt is better.

And I'm not saying the 'Bolt is a bad mech. It's not. It's just that the 'Hammer is better designed, overall. The 'Hammer's cooling system is optimized for close range, while still adequate for long range, while the 'Bolt's cooling system is optimized for long range, while deficient for short range. Given that both 'Mechs strength is close range combat, this flaw of the 'Bolt is more serious than the 'Hammer's adequate (for its weight class) armor.

Quote

I don't know where you're getting the idea that the Warhammer runs so very much cooler than the Thunderbolt. Like I said already, if both mechs fire all their weapons then the Warhammer builds up 5 more points than the Thunderbolt, 14 (32 heat - 18 heatsinks = 14) vs. the bolt's 9 (24 heat - 15 heatsinks = 9).

If the Warhammer does not fire either PPC the next round but uses its short range weaponry it will generate 12 heat. At the end of this round it will be at 8 heat (14 + 12 - 18 = 8). If it fires one of its PPCs it will be at 18, and if it fires only a PPC and not its short range weapons it will be at 6 heat.

If the Thunderbolt does not fire its LRM (not unreasonable if you're close enough to use mediums, MGs and SRMs) the next round then it generates 19 heat, bringing it up to 14 (19 + 9 - 15 = 14). Any sensible Thunderbolt pilot will therefore either stagger the use of its Large Laser (bringing the total heat down to 5. Alternately he can refrain from firing a Medium Laser instead and be at 9 heat, one more than a Warhammer who didn't get to fire either of its PPCs. And so on and so forth.

It seems to me in your assumptions you're making the Thunderbolt pilot a rookie who can't manage his heat and the Warhammer pilot experienced with his machine. It is not difficult to keep a Thunderbolt running cool enough to stay out of trouble. Yes, the Warhammer will have a bit of a firepower advantage. That has never been disputed, but the hammer's weak points (its thin armor, particularly in the legs) are so glaring that the Thunderbolt's advantage in this area is a significant factor. Add the possibility of kicks to this mix and the Hammer should never, ever, ever try to close with a Thunderbolt unless he is significantly less damaged than the 'bolt when they first meet up.

I'm assuming three things:

1) That both pilots are experienced enough not to overheat their 'Mechs. This means not letting their 'Mechs heat rise above 12, and ideally keep their heat below 7, where there are no targeting penalties.

2) That both pilots are experienced enough not to sit still on a battlefield, and are thus moving their 'Mechs at running speed. (Which generates two heat.)

3) That both pilots have average piloting and gunnery skills, and will want to close to the "optimal" range of their 'Mechs are.

Under these conditions, the pilots will miss their shots about 58% of the time at short range, 83% of the time at medium range, and 97% at long range. Which is why I used the term, "volume of fire." They'll be be missing more than they hit, especially at long range, and every miss still generates heat that they'll have to get. In addition, once heat reaches 8, you get a +1 penalty to hit, which makes the chances of missing 72%/92%/ automatic miss. When heat reaches 13, the chance of missing rises to 83%/97%/automatic miss. If you want to hit with your 'Mech, you better keep your heat as low as possible.

(For completeness' sake, here's the table of miss probability. Target movement penalties assumes the target makes one facing change per turn, which means both pilots have, to start out with +4 to hit: +2 for the target moving 5-6 hexes, +2 for you running. If the target's heat rises above 4, or is walking, it's movement penalty drops to +1. If it's heat rises above 9, its' penalty drops to zero, even when running. Your movement penalty can drop to +1 if you walk, and zero if you stand still.)

To-Hit Penalty short medium long 0 8.33% 27.78% 58.33% 1 16.67% 41.67% 72.22% 2 27.78% 58.33% 83.33% 3 41.67% 72.22% 91.67% 4 58.33% 83.33% 97.22% 5 72.22% 91.67% 100.00% 6 83.33% 97.22% 100.00% 7 91.67% 100.00% 100.00% 8 97.22% 100.00% 100.00%

(edit: darn, I thought you could paste tables here. )

In a long range duel, I'd give the 'Bolt an advantage. It can fire its long range weapons continuously while remaining heat neutral. Furthermore, when its large laser can fire, it's LRM launcher would be at medium range. The 'Hammer, meanwhile, will be at long range, and it cannot continuously fire its PPCs. For every three double PPC blasts, it has to have two single PPC blasts to keep the 'Mech below 12. By the time the 'Bolt is out of LRMs, the 'Hammer will get in 26 PPC blasts, and the 'Bolt 16 large laser shots. On "average," the 'Bolt would've done points of 31 damage (27 missiles would've hit, plus a 50% chance of connecting with the laser once), while the 'Hammer would've done 8 points (80% chance of connecting with the PPC once). Once the 'Bolt is out of LRMS, the advantage swings to the 'Hammer, since it can fire its PPCs 60% more often, and each does more damage than the 'Bolts large laser.

Either way, the chances of either 'Mech remaining at long range is low. They really aren't long range 'Mechs. One or both pilots are going to want to close to medium range, where they can bring their medium lasers and SRMs into play. It is at this point that the 'Bolt's cooling inefficiency becomes an issue. If the 'Bolt wants to keep its 'Mech cool, it can only fire its large laser every four turns, or more ideally, fire its LRM launcher two every five turns. The 'Hammer can bring a PPC into the fight three times in five turns. Or more ideally, it can stagger three double PPC blasts with two blasts from its lasers and SRMs. At this range, both 'Mechs are about equal in medium-range weaponry, so at this range, the advantage is to the 'Hammer.

Where the 'Hammer really shines is at close range, and any 'Hammer pilot will take advantage of it. It can fire all its close-in weapons, (which do 6 more damage than the 'Bolt's) and still have enough cooling capacity fire one of its PPCs (at what is effectively medium range) two out of five turns. The 'Bolt, meanwhile, has no choice but to use its large laser, which has a rate of fire of almost half the 'Hammer's PPC (but will hit twice as often as the 'Hammer.) Both 'Mechs would be better off closing to point-blank range and punching, but the 'Bolt has to choose between firing its Machine Guns, and punching with that arm.

Quote

In the end it comes down to personal preference I suppose. The Warhammer is a good mech. I've been a fan of it since I first bought the box set with that beautiful machine on the cover back in the late 80's, but given the choice between a hammer and a bolt I will choose to pilot the bolt every time.

And I'd choose the 'Hammer, because of its more efficient cooling system. In my opinion, people tend to underestimate the effects of heat, especially the penalties to hit. A +1 penalty to hit at 8 heat is not a minor penalty, especially at medium or long range. And the light 'Mech pilot in me winces at any movement penalty, especially the -2 penalty you get at 10 heat. That would halve either 'Mechs movement rate. The 'Bolt, while a good 'Mech, simply has too many cooling problems for me to be comfortable with. It's like the designer discovered "Hey! I have a couple of extra tons after creating this thing, let's toss in a couple of extra medium lasers. What could possibly go wrong?"

Of course, I have yet to see a 'Mechwarrior computer game that ever bothered to model the effects that high heat have in the table top game, with the exception of how frequently you have to hit the "override shutdown" button.

Edited by Dragon Lady, 23 May 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[Chunkymonkey]

cinco, on 22 May 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

yes, better yet, wait for a mech that will likely not come out until years after the game is released.

do people even think about what they post anymore?

Clan invasions is in a year techincaly.

[Chunkymonkey]

Have you guys even read the rest of the thread? or even part of it?

Alfred VonGunn, on 23 May 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

Needs 1 more choice.. Depends on Pilots

Added

[Lagavulin]

Totally just voted "Depends on Pilot". Individual mech's are nothing without pilots. If one of you guys faced me, you'd eat me whether I was piloting a Hammer or a Bolt. Just like I eat those NPC's in Mercs.....

[Creed Buhallin]

Dragon Lady, on 23 May 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Both 'Mechs would be better off closing to point-blank range and punching, but the 'Bolt has to choose between firing its Machine Guns, and punching with that arm.

Uhm... Wha? You can knock 13 of the 15 points of armor off the 'hammer's leg with a kick, but you'd choose to do half the damage before you give up the MGs, scatter the damage across 6 possible locations instead of 2, AND give up making your opponent take a piloting roll?? Wow.

I also think your heat management issues are pretty overblown. A Warhammer using a PPC, both mediums, and the SRMs builds 2 heat without moving, for a maximum potential of 32 points, but more likely to average 26-28. A Thunderbolt using the Large and all 3 mediums builds 2 heat without moving, for 25 damage. Same heat profile, damage difference averages 3 points per turn.

So the 'hammer has to make the fight last for about 15 rounds worth of hits to overcome the Thunderbolt's armor advantage. Since the Warhammer can absorb 6 rounds of total damage, I'm not thinking that's going to even out.

That's where the difference is. The Thunderbolt didn't give up extra heat sinks for weapons - it gave them up for armor.

[GoLambo]

Voted Warhammer but the truth is they're evenly matched. The Warhammer has the heatsinks (18) to move and fire it's PPC's about as often as it wants, tipping above 5 heat every couple turns and letting one of the guns rest while it cools off. Against any reasonable player the Tbolt is going to have zero chance to actually use that better range bracket of the LRM-15 in any meaningful way, as both mechs are 4/6 movers and can close the difference in no time at all. Twin 10 damage hole punchers in the table top are a serious threat, the difference being that if they ever start impacting the same location at all they are a lot faster to work a section down than "sand blasting" from LRM's and medium lasers. It's not just damage, it's how you DO the damage that makes "big gun" mechs like the warhammer scary. 10 point chunks can seriously open some holes on a unit, and then all you have to do is close in and open up with your big barrage of close in crit seakers to take advantage of it. Big gun hits can, on their own, often bring down an opponent with just a few solid torso hits. We know this happens with Gauss rifles, the same can happen with PPC's. We know the Tbolts advantages, and that large laser 3 medium barrage is no joke, but it's also not any better than a PPC, 2 medium lasers and an SRM-6. Both mechs have ticking timebombs in their ammo counts.

Now, the D Warhammer on the other hand, is basically made to kick the Tbolt right in the teeth. It does basically everything at least as good if not better, and has better heatsinks to boot, with no ammo to worry about. The K model is similarly at an advantage, with 2 extra heatsinks and no machineguns it's on par with the R but with better heat management at very little loss in firepower.

The point is, they're so comparable it really is up to the pilot and luck more than anything, I just feel the need to smack down the tbolt guys a notch who think it's so obviously superior. If someone had put up the Orion as a similar example the problem would still be there. The Orion is no sure win against a hammer, even with its massive armor advantage. It has one hole puncher to the hammers 2, and it has massive heat problems if it tries to alpha.

Edited by golambo, 23 May 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

One major reason I wouldn't consider the Thunderbolt as having any advantage over the Warhammer at any range is that 5-point increments of damage don't cut through 17-22 points of armor any quicker than 10-point increments of damage cut through 24-30 points of armor. The Thunderbolt is a great design, but the base TDR-5S only has one weapon that concentrates damage effectively - as a result, I find it brawls nicely, much like a Guillotine does, but doesn't have a lot of knock-out power at range.

LRMs are kind of a tough thing on TT, sometimes they score lucky TACs, but mostly they suffer from first having to make a single to-hit roll for the entire launcher, then see damage whittled down and spread around by cluster-hit tables. (But I guess unpredictability is the trade-off for a low weight, low-ish heat, long-range weapon with potentially high damage output.) By contrast, PPCs group damage very effectively, and by the time the fight closes in, the Warhammer has about as good of a chance of punching out an ammo bin or engine with its secondary arsenal as does the Thunderbolt. And on the topic of ammo explosions, the TDR-5S Thunderbolt is vulnerable to hit on the LA, RT, and CT, while the WHM-6R Warhammer is only vulnerable to CT and RT hits... and that is a significant vulnerability, as I found out the first time I squared one off against a CRD-3R. The Thunderbolt has a lot in common with the Orion, both are good, all-around, non-specialized designs with a balanced load-out of weapons and solid armor... and lots of ammo to crit.

And if you bring in the WHM-6D... no ammo bins to crit, more armor than the T-Bolt, and a couple more heat sinks to boot. I'd give one of those damn good odds against a Thunderbolt, especially at range... But of course, that's also why it's 1471BV to 1335BV on a TDR-5S, and 1299BV on a WHM-6R.