156 replies to this topic

[frostfly]

The Tbolt will always win with a smart driver. Sit outside of the Warhammers range and empty the LRM bins. Either the warhammer is gonna get upset and charge you, in which case you close and beat the crud out of him with better close up firepower and heat distribution, or he's gonna wait til your outta LRM ammo...at which case the armor advantage will be much higher...then you close and beat him senseless.

The warhammer (just like the maruader) is massively overrated. I'd take a thug if I wanna run Two PPCs.

[Shad0wsFury]

I'd say a lot depends on pilot/player skill. Can the Thunderbolt keep the Warhammer inside the Thunderbolts LRM range, but outside the Warhammer's PPC range, even for just 2-3 salvos? (the Warhammer's armor is weak enough that this softening up might make a huge difference)? Can the hammer keep the tbolt far enough away to pepper it with PPCs, or would the tbolt manage to rush the hammer and engage it at short or melee range? (if the Warhammer can get off 3-4 good PPC salvos before the Thunderbolt can close to short range, that could end the battle right there)?

Unless the Thunderbolt pilot makes a mistake, the tbolt should have all the tools necessary to kill a Warhammer in a 1v1 scenario, as they both have identical speed, but the Thunderbolt will probably run to close range while the Warhammer backpeddles. If the Thunderbolt softened up the Warhammer with LRMs like I suggested, and managed to only take 2 PPC salvos before closing to medium laser range, the Thunderbolt SHOULD be able to barely kill the Warhammer

Now if you put a lance of Thunderbolts up against a lance of Warhammers, I'm pretty sure the story would be quite the opposite, because the concentrated fire from 8 PPCs is probably going to keep most of the Thunderbolts out of short range or savage them enough that they will be little threat.

[Roster]

The Warhammer would win because
It is just a sexier classier lady!

[WolfSpider]

A Warhammer-6D can handle the attacks of the Thunderbolt and kill it pretty well. I know I ran one last week in the table top game.

Edited by WolfSpider, 25 July 2012 - 09:34 AM.

[Grendel408]

Some very nice posts here stating this or that... but running a 'Mech is like racing a car... all depends on the pilot You could have a nice expensive race car, someone can have something on par with it... but if you can't drive that car like it should be... then you'll lose, simply put.

[Fl3tcher]

It all depends on the roll of the dice.

[Mac Bane]

The Classic Match of 3025 and often fought.
The Thunderbolt has a huge advantage given that both pilots are even in skill.
Long Range every time the T-Bolt Player wins Initiative he can shoot LRMs at the Warhammer whom cannot fire back.
T-Bolt lands Missile here at 9-10 with the 2 dice (good pilots personal Ammo managment should be in those numbers)
When he looses Initiave he can simply go back. Warhammer has the choice to follow up to get in Range (has to run for it +2 Heat which IS a factor) or stay out of Range and eat all (or nearly all) 16 rounds of LRM 15 Ammo (T-Bolt must save around 3-5 salves for the charge he needs to do when Ammo gets low)
If the Warhammer goes for it and maybe leaves his superior Position (usually a forest) you get into the Midrange Game which is more realisitc then the upper example. But dont forget the T-Bolt forces the Warhammer to react here which the Warhammer cannot do to T-Bolt simply because of the superior range of the rockets.
MidRange it is always a little luck dependant on Initiative. The Warhammer has the upper hand here in case of damage and can make the T-Bolt fall down due 20 damage in 1 round forces a 5+ roll. The main thing is that again the T-Bolt can force something. He tries to get to 13/14 squares and hit with LRM 15 (which should hit at around 8/9) at good numbers while his Large Laser and the PPCs hit at significantly bader numbers (10/11). Warhammer has to manage his heat far more since he generates overheat with every duo salve PPCs (which he MUST fire to get an advantage over Large + LRM 15). T-Bolt can always go in from the 13 squares when Warhammer is on a little heat (2-4). He can easily nullify the PPCs best Range (which is 6-12 hexes) and get 1 salves duo PPCs on a 8 (which is less then 50% of hitting and 25% of hitting both to force him to not fall on 5+). The best moment for this is when the Warhammer cannot fire both PPCs because he has 3 or more heat and lose Movementpoints which he desperatly needs when the T-Bolt walks to him in a straight line. Once near Range the T-Bolt can usually play good old 3025 "Go for dat puny leg" tactic (Sidenote 2 simple Large Laser hits can do that Warhammer Leg). Warhammer can go for T-Bolts Leg too (if one of them kicks it DOES hurt and can decide the match easily) but that pretty much what the T-Bolt wants at this point of the fight because he has superior Armor in the Legs (SideNote: T-Bolt has Hands and hits real easy in Melee when kicked for addional damage. Warhammer has it +1 harder vice versa here which IS a factor).
As a long time TT player i know that Leg Armor and Leg Hits decide so many matches 3025. 3050 and Clan Tech its another game but Low Tech there is no 30+ damage easily with pulse Weapons each turn. You need to hit some good old Medium Lasers (2-4) at 8+ and its hard to get 20+ damage so they can fall. A kick forces Mechs to roll for that fall down too and once you destroy anything beside a Heatsink in the Leg its pretty much over and even a Wasp can kill a Warhammer relativly easy from there on.

So i give this sunclear to T-Bolt because he can force so many things to the Warhammer all ending most time in brawl which the Warhammer looses due to his 15 points Legs

[Ducks Guts]

Everything depends on the pilot. Sit them on the battlefield with no pilot...who would win???

[verybad]

RangerLee, on 08 July 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

This is way to simple...Thunderbolt wins via Harmony Gold lawsuit, taking the Warhammer out of action.....

You are aware that the Tbolt is also an Unseen mech right?

[Herzog]

I'm just a big fan of dual PPC's, especially if you can focus your fire on one or two locations. You're talking almost 1.5 tons of armor being slagged away with every hit! Of course if you upgrade those to ER PPCs...

[Friend Fox]

It ALWAYS depends on the pilot.

[Sidra]

pffft Urbie, he sits and waits for the victor then snipes the already damaged mech and wins

[Hodo]

T-Bolt will win.

LRM15 with its range of 630m give it a range advantage over the Warhammer, by 90m. Which in the table top translates to two turns of shooting before the Warhammer can bring its PPCs to range. Then you have the Large Laser which comes into range 180m after the LRMs.

If you do cold hard math the Warhammer can not survive the kind of sustained fire the T-Bolt can bring down on it. That and the T-Bolt is a better heat management system than the Warhammer. WHM-6R only has 18 heat sinks, firing 2 PPCs at a time and running causes an excess heat flow of 4 per turn. After 3 turns of that it will have movement problems and targeting issues, 5 turns it will have shutdown warning and possible ammo explosions. The T-Bolt can maintain its fire with the Large Laser and LRM15 indefinately while running.

Then there is the factor of armor.

The Warhammer has less than 1 ton of armor per leg (15pts). The T-Bolt has almost double that in the legs alone. Then the weak side torso armor of the Warhammer also hurts it. When the T-Bolt gets into physical range of the Warhammer, it will quite simply, kick the legs off of it.

Both have ammo issues, the T-bolt with its LRM, SRM, and Machine Gun ammo vs the Warhammers, MG and SRM ammo. I would give the Warhammer the advantage there.

Even at short range the Warhammer is out matched by the T-Bolt. The TDR-5S can bring 3 Medium lasers, the Large Laser, 2 Machine Guns, and a SRM2 launcher to bear. Doing 29-31 damage a turn. While building up 4 heat standing still 6 running.

The Warhammer will not be able to bring its PPCs to any great affect due to the minimum range of 90m, so it will be stuck with its secondary weapons. 2 Medium lasers, 2 Small Lasers, 2 Machine Guns, 1 SRM6. Doing 22-32 damage. Generating 0 heat. While this seams like more, its actually less because of that wide variable range of damage, and that most of its damage is going to be spread out. Unlike the TDR which will concentrate damage with the Large Laser.

It will take the TDR 3 kicks to destroy the leg of a Warhammer, if the Warhammer has no damage to start with, which is unlikely. The 'Hammer will have to kick the TDR leg 4 times to destroy it.

The TDR-5S Thunderbolt maybe lighter, but it is a "light" assault mech designed to take the fight to the enemy. The WHM-6R Warhammer is a direct fire support mech. It should not be in a brawl for long.

[Graefin Zeppelin]

Well it depends..but.if it comes to kicking the Hammer needs to kill the T-bolt better quick tho.

Oh and to some of these expert here. The T-Bolt might have hands unlike the Hammer but if you punch a Hammer instead of kicking him nobody can help you.

Edited by Graefin Zeppelin, 25 July 2012 - 12:27 PM.

[Baron Kreight]

[DeathDealer 6]

This match actually depends on which model of Warhammer or Thunderbolt are engaging each other. If could potentially get interesting for the Warhammer if the Thunderbolt it is fighting is an Eridani Lighthorse variant, which would give the thunderbolt the advantage depending on the terrain but I also agree the Warhammer usually has the better armament.

Would be an interesting match either way to be honest.

[Foxmoan]

I gotta say the T-bolt as well sadly. What some people seem to be missing is that the hammer's base varient (what the OP said they would be fighting with) does NOT have a range advantage. It only has regular PPCs after all, not ER. I also don't get the people saying whammy can punch for more damage. Whammy can't punch at ALL. You need hand actuators to punch, and whammy lacks that as soo many other PPC based mechs do. Heck with the whammys weak armor, if the bolt ran out of LRMs he could just charge and ram whammy and more than likely cripple if not kill him outright.

Then again... the bolt can't hit what he can't see! Lol sorry... couldn't resist the unseen joke

[William McNab]

Ok - so to take the pilot and terrain out of the mix ....
I ran several simulations on MW4 Mercs - Level 9 BOT combat. (I sim MW4 Merc battles way too much).

I don't know what skills or strategy the Level 9 BOTs favor, but they favor the Warhammer 100% of the time.

Ran all the sims with a Warhammer - Std PPC, and switched out the M-Pulse for Regular M Las. Put the extra tonnage into Heat sinks vs Tenchi (65 tons) - with LRM 15, Lrg Las, 2xMed Las, Srm -2 and 2xMG. Maxed armor and heatsinks with remaining tonnage.

Warhammer won 5 for 5 on Arctic, Factory and Oil(somehting) maps.

Any other suggested builds for the T-bolt instead of the Tenchi chasis?

[Skinflowers]

Too many variables to say one way or another. You'd have to define the situation a lot more to be able to make a call on this frankly.

That said, i vote: Urbanmech. Best mech.

[Isingdeath]

Win or lose the Warrhammer would look cool!