223 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Repair cost are what kept stupid people from running in and dying

]

uh no. repair costs are what kept smart people from repairing at all... and just entering matches repeatedly with YLW with red internals so they never had to pay repair bills.

[Landeraxe]

Pugastrius, on 17 December 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

The biggest benefit to removing Repair / Rearm costs are:

1) Good Play is No longer Punished: That is, if I did a really good job of torso twisting to have my arms/torso/legs destroyed before I go down, I got slapped with a bigger repair bill than just standing face to face with the opponent and letting the opponent Core me.

Good play wasn't punished before, if you consider that while you were still up and fighting, you were still shooting/fighting/playing the game rather than standing there like a cannon tower exchanging shots until one of you died (not a popular game, by all accounts).

Pugastrius, on 17 December 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

2) Rearm Costs No longer Punish the "un-knowing": Let's be honest here, most veterans never paid for rearms anyway, we'd simply take the 75% free and call it a day... thus this doesn't really change much for the veterans, but it does help those that didn't know of this "method" of re-arming.

I carried what I could afford to rebuy. Let me be honest and tell you that if a carried between 33 and 50 salvos of ammo for my SRMs, I never stopped firing at 75%, or gave a second thought about the costs in the middle of combat. Paying for use of the weapon was a condition of using it over weapons less expensive to use, but less tasteful/useful to me. I considered myself lucky if I got to expend all of it into an enemy.

Pugastrius, on 17 December 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Removing R&R is a pretty "clean" method for fixing both of these issues...

But the issues weren't really valid in the first place, so...

[Ozric]

Back in the ground with you, foul thread! Back I say!

[Landeraxe]

SicksGunz, on 17 December 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Not only do I like R/R costs, I think they should be a lot higher, especially for assault mechs and XL engines. This game needs to be more, not less immersive. It needs to do a better job of making the pilot feel like a mercenary in a persistent universe, not just roll from match to match.

THIS.

[Landeraxe]

borisof007, on 17 December 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Good equipment comes with its own price besides c-bills. Artemis comes at the cost of 1 additional ton and critical slot for each weapon. Double Heat Sinks take up additional space, as with Endo Steel and FF.

Balancing is MUCH harder to do at an economical level than at the gameplay level. If you're complaining about DDC Atlases running 3 LRM 15's with artemis, then either use cover and only engage in short range, or use/have a teammate use an ECM.

You're not even addressing his post. I'll make it simple for you.
RnR makes running a pricey mech that is above your ability to keep undamaged unaffordable.
As you get better, you will be aable to affordably run better/bigger mechs.
Right now, clueless peeps can run their own atlas after 25 games, without consequence. The king of the battlefield ought to be affordable to those that can afford to run them.

Sorry, I haven't played MWO after the first day or so of the change. This soft-core BS ruins the game. Bring back consequences!

[Joseph Mallan]

Though I agree with the quoted post Landeraxe, I think we are testing House militia/army economics right now. As a Marine I never paid for my equipment upkeep. The government paid for it. So if you look at the present economy (including lower rate of pay) it makes some sense.

[Landeraxe]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

Though I agree with the quoted post Landeraxe, I think we are testing House militia/army economics right now. As a Marine I never paid for my equipment upkeep. The government paid for it. So if you look at the present economy (including lower rate of pay) it makes some sense.

These are good points, and I applaud your service to our country. I hope you understand that my disagreement in no way indicates disrespect.

As a marine, do you get a huge cash bonus for kicking *** on the battlefield, or do you get a flat rate +/- danger-pay (I honestly don't know how it works, but I'm pretty sure you don't get mercenary wages)? See the difference already?

Also, mechwarriors are not soldiers. They are nobility, by virtue of owning a battlemech. Basically, a modern-day marine would be an infantyman or special forces soldier in the armies of mechwarrior; but mech pilots (mechwarriors) are different. Their mechs are handed down generation to generation until destroyed or captured by an enemy. They personally own their own mechs, and if they don't (called 'disinherited'), then they may serve a house by piloting a house mech (i.e., the free-to-pilot, non-customizable Trail mechs) for reduced pay and freedom from repair bills.

Mechwarriors that own their own mechs are responsible for repairs, upgrades, replacements, which they usually afford by their outrageous paydays. When they can no longer afford to field their own mechs, they stop making the $$$ that comes with putting their own mechs on the line.

I hope this makes sense to you, and I'd be happy to discuss this in further depth if you'd like.

Edited by Landeraxe, 10 January 2013 - 08:08 PM.

[Merky Merc]

Play badly, don't get paid.

Play good(ly?), get paid

[Quxudica]

ManDaisy, on 17 December 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

I am kinda worried that the devs have scrapped repairs all together. Repair cost are what kept stupid people from running in and dying. Now that its gone I anticipate a lot of dumber players and suicide tactics.

I hope they have scrapped it. Bills are not a fun game mechanic outside of games meant for them (4X games and RTS). The only reason they existed here was to increase the grind - that's it, they served no other practical purpose. Removing it was the correct course of action and I'd personally be fine if it was never seen again.

[ArmandTulsen]

There will always be stupid gamers. Reintroducing R&R won't change that. Having R&R simply accentuates the problem and amplifies the stupidity of the already stupid player. (They will still play dumb, and it will cost them more in the end.) Removing R&R let's the dumb player play for longer.

No offense to some of you.

[Davers]

R&R was a very unfair and exploited system. Maybe it will come back after matchmaking has been worked out. But how it was implemented was not working at all as intended.

[DirePhoenix]

Landeraxe, on 10 January 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

These are good points, and I applaud your service to our country. I hope you understand that my disagreement in no way indicates disrespect.

As a marine, do you get a huge cash bonus for kicking *** on the battlefield, or do you get a flat rate +/- danger-pay (I honestly don't know how it works, but I'm pretty sure you don't get mercenary wages)? See the difference already?

Also, mechwarriors are not soldiers. They are nobility, by virtue of owning a battlemech. Basically, a modern-day marine would be an infantyman or special forces soldier in the armies of mechwarrior; but mech pilots (mechwarriors) are different. Their mechs are handed down generation to generation until destroyed or captured by an enemy. They personally own their own mechs, and if they don't (called 'disinherited'), then they may serve a house by piloting a house mech (i.e., the free-to-pilot, non-customizable Trail mechs) for reduced pay and freedom from repair bills.

Mechwarriors that own their own mechs are responsible for repairs, upgrades, replacements, which they usually afford by their outrageous paydays. When they can no longer afford to field their own mechs, they stop making the $$$ that comes with putting their own mechs on the line.

I hope this makes sense to you, and I'd be happy to discuss this in further depth if you'd like.

The MechWarrior = Nobility system was due to what happened over the course of the 2nd Succession War (2830-2864) and persisted through the beginning of the 3rd Succession War. By the time the 3rd Succession War ended in 3025, the Successor States had rebuilt enough production that the House militaries were back up to the level where most MechWarriors were at the same level as contemporary fighter pilots are today (Academy graduates, specialized military training), while actual House Nobles were back in their palaces "governing" or whatever they do not getting themsleves killed on the front lines. Very few MechWarriors in House Armies after 3025 actually owned their own 'mechs. Exceptions would be the few nobles that still participated in "playing soldier".

House army 'mechs belonged to the House governments. If someone owned their own personal 'mech and used it in combat they were most likely to be Mercs or Planetary Militia. Even Solaris Gladiators rarely owned their own machines. Their 'mechs were usually provided by their "stable", which in turn was more like what happens in NASCAR. Sponsors pay the "stable" lots of money to buy a machine and get a pilot to take it into an arena to fight with their brands plastered all over them. If they can manage to not get it smashed to pieces in the first 30 seconds, there's probably more money in store for them.

As for pay, regular armies (in both the contemporary world and in make-believe future robot war land) don't get paid "per-mission". At least not as individuals. The government gives them pay on a regular basis per rank. A job classification may at times offer special "risk compensation" depending on the situation, but it's the rank that calls in the money. Excellent performance (especially in the line of duty) may have a significant effect on evaluations, however, which in turn may result in a promotion... which means more money on a regular basis.

To contrast this with a Mercenary's income, an individual in the regular army will ALWAYS get far less than an individual performing the same actions in a Merc unit. However, a Merc has a LOT more they have to take care of on their own (Weapons, Ammo, Armor, Maintenance, Medical Bills, etc.). The government provides a regular army unit with what they need (NOTE: this is based on what the Government deems that the unit needs, not what the unit may say that they need). A Merc unit has a lot more freedom in getting whatever they want, but it comes out of their own pocket. So while being in a regular army unit may be more financially "secure" (it doesn't have the extremes in wealth and poverty of Merc life), there is also very little freedom of choice in the equipment you get issued (sure, you've got a roof over your head and food in your belly, but you're flying in a loud, outdated F-4 because your government doesn't think you need to upgrade to an F-22).

[Rift Hawk]

ManDaisy, on 17 December 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

I am kinda worried that the devs have scrapped repairs all together. Repair cost are what kept stupid people from running in and dying. Now that its gone I anticipate a lot of dumber players and suicide tactics.

I agree, to a point...

We have gone from one end of the spectrum to the other. Now people have no care for Alt-F4ing out of battle or just afk grinding mechs. They make money regardless.

Before, we had cowards too concerned with staying alive and not helping team mates. They would hide behind a rock and do absolutely nothing while their team got massacred because they didn't want to spend the money on repair/rearm.

Hopefully we find a happy mid point along the way.

[CrashieJ]

Chacatumbi, on 17 December 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

they getting rid of RR? Thats a wonderful thing... repair costs for running my atlas was preventing me from using it... why use atlas when i can put 3 large lasers on a catapult and grind cbills? I was actually losing cash on some matches with atlas even with 2 kills.

major logistics costs for Heavy mechs up, should happen when the game is finished with community warfare and planetary conquest (and the more planet rewards you get per "turn", the easier it becomes to run an atlas) but not in Beta.

[CrackersPhinn]

I feel like this is an experiment by PGI, RnR played a big roll in the "simulation" they were trying to set up with this game. I think they are trying to make players play a certain way to help them gather more data on key aspects of the game, ie. weapon system and mech balances. Or they could of just did it to see how the player base would react to it's removal. My point is that there's something more to this than just PGI trying to fix a mistake or from players complaining too much.

Honestly, I had a founder Atlas when they still had RnR in place. I wasn't really making much money but i always at least broke even when i played. (having between 0-2 kills) With the new reward system the c-bills are coming in a lot slower than in closed beta. It could be that they are trying to balance the reward system and see how much players on average earn then implement back the RnR system. Of course this is all speculation from a nobody, it just seems rather pointless to implement a system talked about since the beginning than just suddenly scrap the whole idea. Like I said before, there's something more to it.

[MustrumRidcully]

ManDaisy, on 17 December 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

I am kinda worried that the devs have scrapped repairs all together. Repair cost are what kept stupid people from running in and dying. Now that its gone I anticipate a lot of dumber players and suicide tactics.

There are consequences for being doofus.

If you play badly, you are less likely to get assists, kills, germanium, spot assists, TAG/NARC assists, and more likely to lose, which also means you miss out on salvage bonuses.

Bad play leads to you making less money.

[DirePhoenix]

CrackersPhinn, on 10 January 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

I feel like this is an experiment by PGI, RnR played a big roll in the "simulation" they were trying to set up with this game. I think they are trying to make players play a certain way to help them gather more data on key aspects of the game, ie. weapon system and mech balances. Or they could of just did it to see how the player base would react to it's removal. My point is that there's something more to this than just PGI trying to fix a mistake or from players complaining too much.

I would like to believe that it's an experiment too, but it's quite a bit late in the beta to be messing around that loosely with core game elements like this.

I hope they prove otherwise, but it's looking like they're dropping features that give this game some actual depth in order to make it more like a quick, no-consequence arcade shooter.

[Joseph Mallan]

They did it because there was a new glut of players. Plus it is likely this is the House Warrior economy.

[Doc Holliday]

In retrospect, removing RnR was (for now) definitely the right move. Once they balance heavy mechs to be as powerful as they should be vs light mechs, then it will make sense to have massive RnR costs associated with running them. Right now though, they just don't warrant that. And they won't, until they a: fix the netcode so light mechs aren't straight up OP and b: fix heat efficiency (why they haven't already is baffling) so heavier mechs can actually carry significantly more weaponry without having severe heat issues.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 11 January 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[Armorpiercer M82]

give it back, geeeez !