161 replies to this topic

[blinkin]

Brown Hornet, on 25 March 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

The ironic thing with pulse lasers is that they r intended to allow u to focus fire on specific components but the animation makes targeting more difficult than normal lasers.

how?

are you talking about the slightly reduced duration?

[Zordicron]

Pulse lasers should be MW3 style. Hold down the trigger, laser keeps going until whatever duration is reached. Let off, slowly rebuilds more duration time back to max. heat builds at steady pace as long as trigger is held.

Lets you track the laser for a good while, lets you do shorter bursts if you need to manage heat, looks freegin awesome, works totally different then normal lasers for variety. WIN.

Honestly, MW3 had a lot of weapons down pat that somehow developers have managed to mess up after. Pulse laser, MG, even flamer(though they lose in cool factor compared to flamethrower arms or face we get now).

[DeadlyNerd]

focuspark, on 25 March 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

I've already made a few suggestions on how to balance this out so that Pulse Lasers are still competitive but not better than standard lasers (no I do not subscribe to the "B is a direct upgrade of A" philosophy). Not everything is one shot, one damage - missiles aren't. Flamers aren't. Machines guns aren't. Even lasers aren't. Lasers are 10 small bursts of damage each doing 10% of the max total. Pulse lasers currently do 8 bursts: 7 at 13% and one at 9%.

This thread is about overhauling Pulse Lasers to make them more interesting. Not to discuss theoretical "slippery slope" arguments regarding auto-cannons and short range missiles.

False, everything is currently 1 click 1 shot, with the exception of flamers and MGs of course, but they're useless anyway.

The laser may last 1sec but it's still 1 instance of damage, which then gets a cooldown. Making a continuous source of damage would make that type of damage obsolete as why line up shots when you can just correct your aim and follow the target till it gets out of sight or your heat rises too high.

The way you want to overhaul pulse lasers is to make them a superior source of damage as opposed to regular lasers, in any situation.
Sorry, but MG mechanic for pulse lasers just isn't good for balance.
You don't change the engine on your car, without also tweaking the intake, exhaust and gearbox. Hell, you even need to adjust the speedometer.
Just sayin', this is not as simple as you think and thus it's better to leave the pulse lasers as they are.

StalaggtIKE, on 25 March 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Not true. Heat keeps the pulse lasers in check.

Heat keeps everything in check, not just lasers.

[blinkin]

DeadlyNerd, on 25 March 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

False, everything is currently 1 click 1 shot, with the exception of flamers and MGs of course, but they're useless anyway.

The laser may last 1sec but it's still 1 instance of damage, which then gets a cooldown. Making a continuous source of damage would make that type of damage obsolete as why line up shots when you can just correct your aim and follow the target till it gets out of sight or your heat rises too high.

The way you want to overhaul pulse lasers is to make them a superior source of damage as opposed to regular lasers, in any situation.
Sorry, but MG mechanic for pulse lasers just isn't good for balance.
You don't change the engine on your car, without also tweaking the intake, exhaust and gearbox. Hell, you even need to adjust the speedometer.
Just sayin', this is not as simple as you think and thus it's better to leave the pulse lasers as they are.


Heat keeps everything in check, not just lasers.

he was talking about how damage is calculated. all weapons in this game operate within a 0.1 second time scale. flamers, machineguns, and all lasers. damage for continuous fire is dealt out every 0.1 seconds. the listed damage for lasers is divided out over the shot duration. a weapon with a duration of 1.0 seconds deals out 10 small doses of damage based on the total damage. computers CANNOT deal a continuous stream of damage. all computers perform operations in single steps. these steps are done in very rapid succession so that we percieve them in a timely manner. computers cannot truly simulate a damage over time effect. all DOTs in all games are series of small doses of damage.

as for your other point:
yes changes change things. just because this might not work (which in fact it has in previous mechwarrior games) does not mean we shouldn't try new things. no one accused this of being simple, but it is a change that will bring more flavor to the game. the developers have been chasing balance since day one. if you want easy balance remove every weapon except medium lasers.

[Zordicron]

DeadlyNerd, on 25 March 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

False, everything is currently 1 click 1 shot, with the exception of flamers and MGs of course, but they're useless anyway.

The laser may last 1sec but it's still 1 instance of damage, which then gets a cooldown. Making a continuous source of damage would make that type of damage obsolete as why line up shots when you can just correct your aim and follow the target till it gets out of sight or your heat rises too high.

The way you want to overhaul pulse lasers is to make them a superior source of damage as opposed to regular lasers, in any situation.
Sorry, but MG mechanic for pulse lasers just isn't good for balance.
You don't change the engine on your car, without also tweaking the intake, exhaust and gearbox. Hell, you even need to adjust the speedometer.
Just sayin', this is not as simple as you think and thus it's better to leave the pulse lasers as they are.


Heat keeps everything in check, not just lasers.

False. it would be easy to make continuous dmg pulse balanced with regular lasers. Use duration. Sure you can track a foe with a pulse(like in MW3) but it takes like 3 times as long to deliver dmg. Or 9 times, or 50 times, or 2 times, whatever makes the DPS work out and balances gameplay.

PPC: instant fire, instant heat, acts like a ballistic to keep it fresh, extra effects added(ecm)
Regular laser: short duration means rapid but not instant dmg delivery, rapid but not instant heat
Pulse(revised): Long duration means lengthy time for dmg delivery, lengthy time to generate heat. Interuptable (stop shooting) reduces heat, reduces dmg. Maximum DPS/dmg deduced by using max duration and recharging rate over time.

Nothing in that description makes others moot. Nothing is more powerful between them. They are all different flavors, and would excel in different situations.

[StalaggtIKE]

Bump!

[Xerxys]

blazarian, on 07 February 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

Why this is a bad idea? Because of the DPS (one hardpoint used for pulse is way more profitable than a normal laser, ever). So what is the point in using normal lasers after the pulse has no cycle time. Way too OP compared to normal after this kind of change. I see no point to make it like that.

But if the DPS is made the same relatively as it is now in pulse laser, then it's just a worse weapon to use because you have to track the target all the time which makes no sense when saying "let's make pulse laser more useful".

The chain fire mode is made for this kind of behaviour (but demands more hardpoints to be able to fire single "ongoing" laserfire. Imho the machine gun just needs buff AND less ammo per ton.

OPs version have the added benefit of highly increased DPS but also highly increased HPS. The big point that I do like about this is that you can easily take your finger off the trigger when you don't have a good shot and you're not getting fire afterwards that is jacking up your heat and completely missing the target. It also has a greater DPS because now you have to be relatively highly skilled to successfully deploy these weapons. I was a bit leery when I first saw this, but I can see the niche it fills and the benefit to have a weapon you can fire in a pinch or to finish off an opponent w/o wasted heat. How many times have you killed an almost dead target and ended up racking up an excess of heat because your weapon had to finish a cycle it really didn't fully need? A great niche weapon now that I've fully thought about it.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

blinkin, on 25 March 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

how?

are you talking about the slightly reduced duration?

It may be a perception of mine but the blinking puts me off. With a normal laser it's easier to spot an unideal placement from an enemy's armour feedback and adjust the beam to where u want it. During that time u have lost valuable dps.

[kiltymonroe]

Where's the "pulse lasers are fine" checkbox?

[focuspark]

Xerxys, on 26 March 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

OPs version have the added benefit of highly increased DPS but also highly increased HPS. The big point that I do like about this is that you can easily take your finger off the trigger when you don't have a good shot and you're not getting fire afterwards that is jacking up your heat and completely missing the target. It also has a greater DPS because now you have to be relatively highly skilled to successfully deploy these weapons. I was a bit leery when I first saw this, but I can see the niche it fills and the benefit to have a weapon you can fire in a pinch or to finish off an opponent w/o wasted heat. How many times have you killed an almost dead target and ended up racking up an excess of heat because your weapon had to finish a cycle it really didn't fully need? A great niche weapon now that I've fully thought about it.

Thank you - good to know people are understanding what I'm saying and I'm not just crazy

[blinkin]

focuspark, on 26 March 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

Thank you - good to know people are understanding what I'm saying and I'm not just crazy

i have been agreeing with you. i think i'm a people, although i won't make any claims as to my sanity.

[focuspark]

blinkin, on 27 March 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

i have been agreeing with you. i think i'm a people, although i won't make any claims as to my sanity.

You are a person, so far I feel like it has been person... now it's officially people (plural)

[focuspark]

DeadlyNerd, on 21 March 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

... stop necroing this thread ...

Rise, rise from the dead my minion! (ahem - bump)

[Righ]

focuspark, on 18 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Nobody liked this idea? Did anyone at least hate it?

I actually really do not like the idea. Interestingly enough, I was thinking about this about an hour ago, and came up with the exact change you have, but then tore it down immediately, and here's why:

So far, I believe the only game that has gotten pulse lasers right is Mechwarrior 2, where they fire (as they are described as doing) like machine guns- a constant barrage of laserfire. This works well for a single player game with lots of targets to take down. However, in an online competitive game such as Mechwarrior: Online, this runs a serious risk of creating unbalance (not that there isn't already). Think about it. A pilot throws on a single medium pulse laser on his/her Spider, loads it up with double heatsinks, and then proceeds to skate around the battlefield, laying down never ending laser fire. With how hard it is right now to hit light 'mechs because of latency issues, the Spider pilot would barely have to do anything other than spray lasers in the general direction of his/her target and move around. That doesn't sound fun to me. Or how about a K2 with four medium pulse lasers? Anyone getting caught not in cover would have no real chance of escape before they get torn apart by an endless stream of fire.

The way pulse lasers are set up currently are fine for the type of game we're playing. Shots still need to be aimed properly, and missing can be a severe tactical loss. It puts more focus on careful aiming and proper positioning rather than spraying beams everywhere.

[focuspark]

Righ, on 29 March 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

I actually really do not like the idea. Interestingly enough, I was thinking about this about an hour ago, and came up with the exact change you have, but then tore it down immediately, and here's why:

So far, I believe the only game that has gotten pulse lasers right is Mechwarrior 2, where they fire (as they are described as doing) like machine guns- a constant barrage of laserfire. This works well for a single player game with lots of targets to take down. However, in an online competitive game such as Mechwarrior: Online, this runs a serious risk of creating unbalance (not that there isn't already). Think about it. A pilot throws on a single medium pulse laser on his/her Spider, loads it up with double heatsinks, and then proceeds to skate around the battlefield, laying down never ending laser fire. With how hard it is right now to hit light 'mechs because of latency issues, the Spider pilot would barely have to do anything other than spray lasers in the general direction of his/her target and move around. That doesn't sound fun to me. Or how about a K2 with four medium pulse lasers? Anyone getting caught not in cover would have no real chance of escape before they get torn apart by an endless stream of fire.

The way pulse lasers are set up currently are fine for the type of game we're playing. Shots still need to be aimed properly, and missing can be a severe tactical loss. It puts more focus on careful aiming and proper positioning rather than spraying beams everywhere.

I get what you're saying, but I think you've missed the point of the thread. First, IMO Pulse Lasers as they are now are uninteresting. Second, even if a player did what you say would happen, they would be completely ineffective. This isn't a one shot, one kill game and the tiny amount of damage that could be done wouldn't have much impact if somebody just laser fire sprayed randomly.

If Pulse Lasers were changed as I suggested, it would require the lasers to fixed on the target for nearly twice as long as standard lasers to do roughly the same amount of damage AND if somebody could keep the pulse laser on for four times as long (roughly time it takes a standard laser to fire and cooldown) they could do double damage. They however would also generate double heat - and since it takes 14 EHS to be heat neutral with a Med. Pulse now, it would need 28 EHS to do that. That's a lot of heat sinks for a very balanced amount of damage.

Nothing OP about it at all.

[Donas]

After thinking about it and reading through this thread again, I've changed my mind.

+1 to OP.

[Zordicron]

So here I found a video of some guy using some med pulse lasers in MW3. This is my favorite implementation for this system. He is running 4, and LRM 20. Notice how using all 4, for full duration, doesnt equal instant win, and how he can not "spray" so much laser everywhere in an endless stream that it is OP like some in this thread have mentioned. Looking at his heat, I think he is running a fair amount of heatsink, and the map is heat neutral if I recall from that game. he does get to farily easily track his target, but he must maintain a substantial amount of fire on the target to do the damage. This type of implementation is totally balanced by total duration and recharge rate, and heat output. PGI could tweak any of these values/all of them to balance these weapons for online PVP play.




Also, Annihilator! I hope this one gets put into this game too.

[General Taskeen]

Eldagore, on 29 March 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

So here I found a video of some guy using some med pulse lasers in MW3. This is my favorite implementation for this system. He is running 4, and LRM 20. Notice how using all 4, for full duration, doesnt equal instant win, and how he can not "spray" so much laser everywhere in an endless stream that it is OP like some in this thread have mentioned. Looking at his heat, I think he is running a fair amount of heatsink, and the map is heat neutral if I recall from that game. he does get to farily easily track his target, but he must maintain a substantial amount of fire on the target to do the damage. This type of implementation is totally balanced by total duration and recharge rate, and heat output. PGI could tweak any of these values/all of them to balance these weapons for online PVP play.




Also, Annihilator! I hope this one gets put into this game too.

That player is also controlling the pulse bursts. If you keep firing with Pulse Lasers in that game, it is like the equivalent of over heating the laser itself, so you have to wait longer before you can fire again. If you control the bursts, and continually watch the Pulse Charge meter in the weapons group, you can fire pulse lasers indefinitely provided you don't over heat.

That is the concept MW:LL used for Autocannons in their game, where the meter shows the Autocannon overheating, which may cause the weapon to lock up if fired for too long. MWO basically copied how pulse lasers were made in MW:LL, 1 shot with a few pulses, recycle, and repeat. However, in order to differentiate Pulse Lasers and X-Pulse Lasers in MW:LL, the devs opted to make X-Pulse Lasers with no cool down (can be fired indefinitely).

In my opinion, MW3 was the best game featuring the 'pulse' laser and was indeed balanced by lowering the damage per shot, and completely dependent on skill due to the charge meter/overheat weapon mechanic. MW:LL a close second, since they strived to create differentiation between weapon types.

Edited by General Taskeen, 29 March 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[Captain Teft]

I like this idea, mainly because pulse lasers are currently kind of useless and I'd love to see them... not be useless.

[focuspark]

Captain Teft, on 29 March 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

I like this idea, mainly because pulse lasers are currently kind of useless and I'd love to see them... not be useless.

Exactly. They'd also be interesting!

Edited by focuspark, 31 March 2013 - 06:54 AM.