245 replies to this topic

[SJ SCP Wolf]

XL 340 Engine

Endo Steel
Ferro
DHS

4 Med Pulse
1 LBX-10
2 tons ammo
1 Streak SSRM2
1 ton ammo

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f30d311c8f93e6e

[HeliosRX]

Wintersdark, on 24 December 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

Endo steel, DHS, 384 tons of armor, XL300 engine, 4xMLAS, Gauss Rifle + 3 tons, AMS + 1 ton, 16 heat sinks. Already pulled the SSRM2, replaced with heat sinks while I'm fiddling. I tried with a variety of other SRM's, but they don't offer much. A single SSRM does very little (and is useless with ECM). I've tried with the various SRMx's, but not with a lot of use. I'm finding a single 2 or 4 isn't really a lot of damage to be worth the tonnage (with ammo) and the 6 is just too big - have to give up too much to wedge it in.

Anyways, with the 4xMLAS and SRM, I had to get closer, which leads to more smacking, requiring more armor I want to move over to PPC's (or, ideally, ERPPC's so I'm not crippled up close). In a perfect world, two of them, but I'm unsure of my ability to control the heat.

Increase engagement ranges, and most importantly for me to front-load my damage. I'm finding I'm terrible maintaining a hit on a specific location with lasers over their whole duration. Movement, terrain, evasion, I end up spraying laser fire across the enemy mech and doing little to any one spot. The up side is I end up doing a pretty decent amount of damage over a battle, the downside is I'm not killing/maiming enough. It's big, meaningless numbers, with the gauss rifle pulling all the weight.

I can be pretty accurate with the rifle, though, and find using PPC's elsewhere that I can be with them as well. So, while they may be technically not as good as lasers, in my hands they're a fair bit better.

I figure I'll have to experiment with less armor... But I get all vulnerable feeling that way

Too much damn armor IMO. If you swap in the PPC there is very little reason to stay at close range so ditch some; it'll improve your firepower and Flame IMO cannot brawl too well, it should strike. SRMs alone do jack **** a lot of the time and you'll inevitably have too much heat to use them effectively. So yeah, ditch the center slot. I don't run AMS but I'm new so what do I know, might be useful but just a tad too heavy on a mech whose primary limitation is tonnage not space. You also run 3 tons of ammo for gauss; not sure if you can feasibly burn through that much very quickly so if you really need an extra ton go ahead and ditch one. If you want a dual PPC build you're not doing it with Gauss, that's for sure, unless you sacrifice space for Ferro Fibrous and give up a heatsink( have not tested if possible, too poor) so you should run pure energy or put a LRM 10 for the lulz.

[Gigastrike]

Wintersdark, on 24 December 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

No. Because if they're critting your side torso, they're going to be critting your engine in short order anyways.

To my knowledge, you don't actually die when the engine is destroyed by crits. They didn't implement that yet.

[M4jk]

FLAME:
XL350
16DHS
FF
ES

FP 45
94,5/104 kph
1,13 HE

LARM CT RARM
1xLL,1xMPL SRM6 1xLL,1xMPL

I love this build.
I tried also 2xLPL + 2xMPL (and with 2xML then) - but it runs hot too quickly for me to like it. But I must say I love these L Pulse lasers, they are just awesome. But would appreciate if their weight is only 6tons, 7 is way too high.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a8433f8852a0c43

FANG:
XL295
11DHS
ES

FP 33
79,7/87,6 kph
1,28 HE

RARM LARM
1xGAUSS 2xLL

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b97d09d89617f67

This build has shown itself as unexpectedly very good to play and very versatile fighter. Once I gave 6/2 kills/assists and it is not such a problem to do 2-3 kills in a match.

I also run DRG-1C, but after few experiments, some of them really interesting (as 2xAC5 and 4xML), some of them less, I ended up with same loadout as in Flame above (except these 2 MPL are in LT and Right Arm can be used as a shield when the ballistic slot is not used). Also thinking to give try an AC/20 version (With 4MPLS I suppose),
What is very important about Dragons is that you have to use its speed potencial to the max.


To summarize it I have to say, I love these Dragons, almost as much as Hunchies;)

M4jk

Edited by M4jk, 24 December 2012 - 07:28 AM.

[Wintersdark]

HeliosRX, on 24 December 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

Too much damn armor IMO. If you swap in the PPC there is very little reason to stay at close range so ditch some; it'll improve your firepower and Flame IMO cannot brawl too well, it should strike. SRMs alone do jack **** a lot of the time and you'll inevitably have too much heat to use them effectively. So yeah, ditch the center slot. I don't run AMS but I'm new so what do I know, might be useful but just a tad too heavy on a mech whose primary limitation is tonnage not space. You also run 3 tons of ammo for gauss; not sure if you can feasibly burn through that much very quickly so if you really need an extra ton go ahead and ditch one. If you want a dual PPC build you're not doing it with Gauss, that's for sure, unless you sacrifice space for Ferro Fibrous and give up a heatsink( have not tested if possible, too poor) so you should run pure energy or put a LRM 10 for the lulz.

I'm piloting with a 5N currently (working towards Elite for my Flame) and have been running a similar build while doing it.

DRG-5N
320 armor, Gauss+20rnds, 2xERPPC, 13DHS, Endo Steel, XL255 engine (I had it kicking around in my garage; I'm too poor to dump millions on another XL).

It's slower, but I'm definitely staying at range with this. It's actually working really, really well. Left mouse PPC's, right mouse Gauss (echoing arm positions). On one hand, it's nice to have the pinpoint accuracy with the gauss mounted in the arm, but it is noticably more vulnerable there. I think it'll work quite nicely in the torso. Cram both PPC's into one arm on the flame, use the other arm as a shield Centurion Style. I do like having mouse buttons connected with weapons mounted on a given side, for use when peeking around corners. I've always had them set up for range bands/situations, but with just a couple weapons it works well this way, less wasted heat or exposed surface.

I *REALLY* like having the Gauss alongside the two ERPPC's. They generate a ****ton of heat, but the Gauss generates effectively none. I can alpha up to 90% heat then just fire the Gauss while cooling down; with the option of an alpha-shutdown for a brutal pinpoint alphastrike.

I do feel a bit twitchy about the loss of speed, though. There's no way around that to roll with 2 PPC's and the Gauss, but I have to ask myself why I'm bothering cramming that into a dragon at that speed, when I could just build a K2.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

New flame build I've been enjoying now that I've got speed tweak.

STD280 (no one expects dragons to not die when a side torso gets shot off so the right side is an excellent shield)
ES
+2 DHS
4ML
AC20+3tons
AMS+1 ton

If you drop AMS (which I won't since I like to use the dragon's speed to put an extra AMS around my assault mechs and LRM support to keep them going engergizer bunny style) you can add FF and an extra ton of ammo or a half ton of extra armor and either a DHS or another ton of ammo.

*Edit*

I'm going to toy with replacing AMS, 1 DHS and 2 ML with with 1 LL and adding FF to make it all fit for some long range weaponry after sitting around doing nothing in a long range sniping match and heat efficiency should be about the same so it should work almost as well if not better.

Edited by Narcissistic Martyr, 24 December 2012 - 08:29 AM.

[Ryebear]

Right now I am running a 300XL with 2 LLs and AC/10 with SRM4.

Im really tempted to drop the LLs for 4 MLs and boost the engine to 340-350XL which will lose 180m in range but put me at about ~100kph top speed, up from 89.1. I think I will be able to upgade to Ferros Armor and use the extra tonnage (and larger engine) to place another DHS or 2 on my mech. May downgrade the AC/10 to a UAC/5 to make this work as well.

But I am wondering; is the moderate boost in top speed and additional torso/turn speed that comes with a bigger engine worth the loss in range and heat efficiency that goes with switching 2 Larges for 4 Mediums?

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Wintersdark, on 24 December 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

I'm piloting with a 5N currently (working towards Elite for my Flame) and have been running a similar build while doing it.

DRG-5N
320 armor, Gauss+20rnds, 2xERPPC, 13DHS, Endo Steel, XL255 engine (I had it kicking around in my garage; I'm too poor to dump millions on another XL).

You should consider going for 2 AC5 instead of the gauss and drop an ERPPC. You can then add an LRM10 for some indirect fire support or a tag with an SRM6 if you'd prefer. Either way you'll have better heat efficiciency and thus can keep firing longer although with less alpha strike damage. Personally, I couldn't cope with being that slow since I'm a terrible shot but if you can the ability to finely control where your shots are aimed is a definite advantage over a K2 against quick enemies.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Ryebear, on 24 December 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

Right now I am running a 300XL with 2 LLs and AC/10 with SRM4.

Im really tempted to drop the LLs for 4 MLs and boost the engine to 340-350XL which will lose 180m in range but put me at about ~100kph top speed, up from 89.1. I think I will be able to upgade to Ferros Armor and use the extra tonnage (and larger engine) to place another DHS or 2 on my mech. May downgrade the AC/10 to a UAC/5 to make this work as well.

But I am wondering; is the moderate boost in top speed and additional torso/turn speed that comes with a bigger engine worth the loss in range and heat efficiency that goes with switching 2 Larges for 4 Mediums?

It depends on your play style. I tend to prefer superior speed myself and have run your exact build with 4ML, SRM4, and AC10 to great success. You might consider trying 4MPL +SRM4 with an XL350 or XL360 and a ton of DHS which can work quite well in my experience.

[Ryebear]

I've done the whole all lasers thing and found, while exceptionally effective against all mechs in any weight class, they werent as fun as mixed weapon mechs.

My Dragon lacks the overwhelming firepower of my Muromet or the run to any fight and pick off the stragglers or weak mechs of my lights. My play style for this mech is to attack from opportune angles, if things arent working out right, run away and regroup. Speed is very important. Right now I am looking at:

300 XL (81.0/89.1 Kph)
2 Large Lasers
AC/10 +3t Ammo
SRM 4 +1t Ammo
Armor: 368
Fire Power: 38
Heat Efficiency: 1.16

Upgrading Engine to support one of these builds:

340 XL (91.8/101.0 Kph)
4 Medium Lasers
AC/10 +3t Ammo
SRM 4 +1t Ammo
Armor: 368
Fire Power: 40
Heat Efficiency 1.15

350 XL
3 Medium Lasers
AC/10 +3t Ammo (can cut 1 tonne of ammo for 1 medium laser lower HE to 1.15)
SRM 4 +1t Ammo
Armor: 394
Fire Power: 35
Heat Efficiency: 1.27

350 XL (94.5/104.0 Kph)
4 Medium Lasers
UAC/5 +4t Ammo
SRM 4 +1t Ammo
Armor: 394
Fire Power: 35
Heat Efficiency: 1.25

Im leaning for the 350 XL builds since it gives me two build choices with better heat efficiency, more speed, more armor and uses all crits/weight at a slight cost to alpha damage. But in all cases I am giving up the range (and relative safety it provides) of Large Lasers for additional speed.

Edited by Ryebear, 24 December 2012 - 10:34 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

Some direct links now with the online mechlab.

Flame - 1 GAUSS 4 ML:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0537a5d40381b2d

Fang - 1 AC10 3 MPL:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ed2deb95a9567b1

That other Dragon to finish the set (DRG-1C) - 1 GAUSS 4 ML:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ae66c97a5e94441

All are optimized with ES/FF/DHS/XL. If Repair/Rearm still existed these would likely be too expensive to repair to be practical but now they're a lot of fun.

[Demoned]

just tried out a few games in my new fang build,
as a mid to close range brawler it works really well,

xl 300
3 medium pluse laser's
gauss rifle 2 ton
SRM6 1 ton
13 DHS

i do want another ton of gauss ammo but I'll need to down grade the engime first and i
want speed tweak before that

Edited by Demoned, 24 December 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[Ryebear]

TruePoindexter, on 24 December 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

Some direct links now with the online mechlab.

Flame - 1 GAUSS 4 ML:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0537a5d40381b2d

Im kind of amazed at how well this all fits, but I am finding it hard, even with the small torso size to justify the Gauss Rifle. If hit with most things on an armorless torso you will probably die, with autocannons you can lose the weapon without it exploding and blowing off your torso thus killing you. The optimal range is only 150m more than an AC/10 with +100m/s bullet speed and 5 more damage. The AC/10 can get off more shots in less time for higher DPS, are pretty much equally devistating to unarmored bits and weigh 3 tonnes less. The other side of things, ammo explosions for ACs is less of an issue than gauss explosions. Ammo is still only 1 crit slot per tonne so is more likely to dodge criticals.

Going AC/10 and using the 3 tonnes for an SRM launcher gives nearly 3 shots to your 1 to lay extra beatings on lights up close as well. But gotta say, Dragons are probably the best mech for maximizing tonnage/crit efficiency. Ability to keep on putting bigger engines to add crit free DHS to use up weight without crits is solid.

[TruePoindexter]

Ryebear, on 24 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Im kind of amazed at how well this all fits, but I am finding it hard, even with the small torso size to justify the Gauss Rifle. If hit with most things on an armorless torso you will probably die, with autocannons you can lose the weapon without it exploding and blowing off your torso thus killing you. The optimal range is only 150m more than an AC/10 with +100m/s bullet speed and 5 more damage. The AC/10 can get off more shots in less time for higher DPS, are pretty much equally devistating to unarmored bits and weigh 3 tonnes less. The other side of things, ammo explosions for ACs is less of an issue than gauss explosions. Ammo is still only 1 crit slot per tonne so is more likely to dodge criticals.

Going AC/10 and using the 3 tonnes for an SRM launcher gives nearly 3 shots to your 1 to lay extra beatings on lights up close as well. But gotta say, Dragons are probably the best mech for maximizing tonnage/crit efficiency. Ability to keep on putting bigger engines to add crit free DHS to use up weight without crits is solid.

It's definitely not for everyone - there's a decided vulnerability with the Gauss/XL in the same torso. It's mitigated somewhat thanks to the tiny side torso's on the Dragon but it's still there. I've only died from a Dragon XL side torso loss twice thus far in all of my games with Dragons so at least for me it's not a significant issue.

I've intentionally avoided adding missiles to my Dragon builds as I really don't like triple weapon system mechs if I can avoid it. Keeping a mech to two weapon systems simplifies its play handily. Plus I'm not keen on how missiles operate in MWO. They're better than how they operated in MW4 but are far away from the versatile and complex weapons found in MW3.

I do take some pride when I can hit the magical 0 slots free point on a mech

[Pariah Devalis]

Did a minor tweak to my 4xLlas flame. Originally had an SRM6, but had to use an XL280, so I made that an xl300 and an SRM4. I noticed that I rarely used the SRMs anyways, so I shed half a ton of leg armor, switched it to an ssrm2, and added an 18th double heat sink. The difference in 17 and 18 heat sinks is noticeable. Makes heat management a lot easier. The SSRM2 is just supplemental firepower, and allows me to more effectively dual role as a light hunter. Whatever does not have ECM is in for a world of hurt, and whatever does have it still needs to contend with four large lasers that, once I find their lag point to aim at, makes them real honest real fast.

What is great is they consistently try and treat a 90kph dragon like any other heavy, not knowing or caring that they cannot easily circle me and that the DRG arms give me next to no blind spot in a circle fight. It does not end well for them.

Being able to light hunt AND peal back virtually any mechs rear armor in a single shot, or their front armor in two to three alphas is glorious. Makes my FLAME a damned good multi-role vehicle.

[De La Fresniere]

Demoned, on 24 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

just tried out a few games in my new fang build,
as a mid to close range brawler it works really well,

xl 300
3 medium pluse laser's
gauss rifle 2 ton
SRM6 1 ton
13 DHS

i do want another ton of gauss ammo but I'll need to down grade the engime first and i
want speed tweak before that

You could upgrade your MPLs to MLs. You'd lose a tiny little bit of DPS, but that'd free up 3 whole tons right there and give you 50% more range on them as well as better heat-efficiency, without the need to downgrade the Engine too.

[Wintersdark]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 24 December 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

You should consider going for 2 AC5 instead of the gauss and drop an ERPPC. You can then add an LRM10 for some indirect fire support or a tag with an SRM6 if you'd prefer. Either way you'll have better heat efficiciency and thus can keep firing longer although with less alpha strike damage. Personally, I couldn't cope with being that slow since I'm a terrible shot but if you can the ability to finely control where your shots are aimed is a definite advantage over a K2 against quick enemies.

Nah; I ran a build like that earlier. It plays extremely differently.

The purpose of the build I have is that I don't need to keep firing. I have pretty decent aim hitting my target, but not holding on it. AC/5's would be similar to lasers in that I'm spreading damage all over my target. Big damage numbers at the end of the battle, but less effective in it. With a Gauss Rifle and 2 PPC's, I'm spanking a single hit location every time with 35 damage. With a headshot, it's a one hit kill; anywhere else it just wrecks stuff.

It's not a good knife-fight build, though it doesn't loose damage up close (ERPPC's), but while with the current set of DHS it pulls down the heat pretty quick, I can't just keep firing the PPC's non-stop. I much prefer to keep more range and hammer things from a distance. In tighter maps I still hang back, and position myself where enemies brawling with my teammates will circle past me. Generally speaking, this gets me easy back shots, and 35 points to anybodies rear CT can really mess stuff up.

The AC/5's require continuous fire to get things done, but that means they can fire continuously at me as well. LRM's are much the same, you're looking at damage over time. What I'm finding works best for me is heavy spike damage followed by ducking back into cover to break locks and (more importantly) attention.

With all that said... when I'm done with my variant Basic training and go back to my Flame, it'll be hard to justify keeping the slow speed to stick with the second ERPPC. Or... I may throw things right out the window and drop the ballistic entirely. Rock a pair of PPC's and a XL350.

These Dragons are a very interesting chassis. With the Hero mechs, they can be built in a number of different ways. You can pack a Dragon up with a fast engine, lots of armor, or crazy weaponry - or any odd combination of the above.

[Ryebear]

De La Fresniere, on 24 December 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

You could upgrade your MPLs to MLs. You'd lose a tiny little bit of DPS, but that'd free up 3 whole tons right there and give you 50% more range on them as well as better heat-efficiency, without the need to downgrade the Engine too.

Better off dropping SRM from 6 to 4 for the free tonne. SRM6 fires 4 then 2 missiles making it less reliable. Also increases number of volleys from ~18 to 25.

[Wintersdark]

TruePoindexter, on 24 December 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

I've intentionally avoided adding missiles to my Dragon builds as I really don't like triple weapon system mechs if I can avoid it. Keeping a mech to two weapon systems simplifies its play handily. Plus I'm not keen on how missiles operate in MWO. They're better than how they operated in MW4 but are far away from the versatile and complex weapons found in MW3.

I do take some pride when I can hit the magical 0 slots free point on a mech

I've been feeling a lot like this lately too. I spent a lot of time trying to make missiles work, but I find they don't mesh well with the other Dragon options. In my (admittedly limited) experience, I've found I like to have multiple weapons pulling from a single ammo pool. I'd rather two missile racks pulling from two tons of (the same) ammo, than one ballistic with one ton and one missile with one ton. More to the point, I only like to carry one kind of ammo on *any* mech. I find using multiple types leads to situations where you've got ammo for a broken/inappropriate weapons, and none for the weapon you need to use.

Particularly as you're limited to just one missile hardpoint and very few crit slots due to your engine and gyros, your options are very limited.

[Demoned]

De La Fresniere, on 24 December 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

You could upgrade your MPLs to MLs. You'd lose a tiny little bit of DPS, but that'd free up 3 whole tons right there and give you 50% more range on them as well as better heat-efficiency, without the need to downgrade the Engine too.

well just switched out 1 medium plus laser for a normal one.
kept the other 2 in my arm, that gave me the extra ton of ammo i needed for the gauss,
the MPL are great for killing scouts with, without needing to focus fire for as long
the quicker firing helps alot in close quarters i find.