1017 replies to this topic

[AlexWildeagle]

Noth, on 19 December 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

Essentially what you are saying is ECM is not OP because ECM counters itself? Typically that is a bad sign. If your ultimate solution for something to to use the exact same thing the enemy is using, that is a bad sign as far as balance goes in gameplay.

Same thing can be said for LRM boats. Except with LRM boats you usually die long before you can get to them. ECM rocks and LRMs are now what they are supposed to be. If you can't usem them now it's a lack of skill/knowledge on your part as I get pelted with them almost every fight.

[Revorn]

AlexWildeagle, on 19 December 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

Same thing can be said for LRM boats. Except with LRM boats you usually die long before you can get to them. ECM rocks and LRMs are now what they are supposed to be. If you can't usem them now it's a lack of skill/knowledge on your part as I get pelted with them almost every fight.

Only to say "you cant play" and ignoring the massive gamesystem Nerf to LRMs is just... ahhh. forgett it, its useless to write to ignorant ppl.

[Noth]

AlexWildeagle, on 19 December 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

Same thing can be said for LRM boats. Except with LRM boats you usually die long before you can get to them. ECM rocks and LRMs are now what they are supposed to be. If you can't usem them now it's a lack of skill/knowledge on your part as I get pelted with them almost every fight.

If you died to LRM boats before the ECM you were doing something very very wrong. Even standing in the open you typically had time to seek cover to avoid the entire volley, or most of it. THey weren't killers, but great for softening and suppressing targets, what they were meant for.

Also it's not a matter of knowing how to use them, it's hoping that the mechs don't stay close to ECM mechs and that your scouts and brawlers can keep tag on a single target. If you are using tag yourself to target you missiles, then you may as well be using a different direct fire weapon.

Edited by Noth, 19 December 2012 - 04:28 AM.

[AlexWildeagle]

Noth, on 19 December 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

If you died to LRM boats before the ECM you were doing something very very wrong. Even standing in the open you typically had time to seek cover to avoid the entire volley, or most of it. THey weren't killers, but great for softening and suppressing targets, what they were meant for.

Also it's not a matter of knowing how to use them, it's hoping that the mechs don't stay close to ECM mechs and that your scouts and brawlers can keep tag on a single target. If you are using tag yourself to target you missiles, then you may as well be using a different direct fire weapon.

BULL!!! On many occasions had 3+ LRM boats focus on targets. I get behind cover only to have most the missiles follow me behind a huge rock. And with so many LRM boats I've had fully armored Phracts (434/434) disintegrate in less then 30 seconds. I call them missile rainbows cause all you see is a solid stream of missiles, if you get behind something the servers consider cover your OK. But a lot of "cover" isn't. And you can't just hide behind cover you have to move some time and when you do....bye bye

Revorn, on 19 December 2012 - 04:26 AM, said:

Only to say "you cant play" and ignoring the massive gamesystem Nerf to LRMs is just... ahhh. forgett it, its useless to write to ignorant ppl.

What are we suppose to say? People are effectively using LRMs while you sit here and whine! The day I can go through a night full of drops and not get hit by any missiles is the night I will agree with you.

[rdelta78]

Mack1, on 19 December 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

It's staying by the looks of it so just buy a laser boat and join in the brawl, LRM's/SSRM's were taken out of the game because the masses could not play against them. Games today have to be easymode or the tears flow, so you have no chance of ECM being nerfed, it will stay as an IWIN button for noobs.

Please do tell me how SSRM's are hard mode in Light Vs Light battle. Try using SRM's against other lights and come here. SSRM's are still very good, but they got shifted from SSRM Cats to SSRM ECM Ravens and ECM Commandos and sometimes Jenners. In a 1 vs 1 situation the light without SSRM's always looses with little exceptions.

The entire problem comes from one thing: SSRM's and ECM is the effect of this problem. Now mechs with ECM can properly use SSRM's and you know what? I, as a light pilot, dislike been shoot down by people, who don't even aim with their lasers or non-lock on weapon for close quarters. Every time i see a Raven it always has, guess what, ECM and Streaks.

So please don't put Streaks in the category of the victim, they just changed users, that's all.

And about LRM's, i recently played some matches where LRM's were used a lot and guess what happened to those who thought LRM's were dead? Yep they got melted by LRM's, so...

Edited by rdelta78, 19 December 2012 - 04:45 AM.

[Noth]

AlexWildeagle, on 19 December 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

BULL!!! On many occasions had 3+ LRM boats focus on targets. I get behind cover only to have most the missiles follow me behind a huge rock. And with so many LRM boats I've had fully armored Phracts (434/434) disintegrate in less then 30 seconds. I call them missile rainbows cause all you see is a solid stream of missiles, if you get behind something the servers consider cover your OK. But a lot of "cover" isn't. And you can't just hide behind cover you have to move some time and when you do....bye bye

You were doing something wrong, I've had up to 4 on me in a phract and took some damage before I could get behind cover (and yes I have been killed by the LRMs before ECM, but that was my bad for being too far in the open and not paying attention. I was also often in the open before ECMs. It was about knowing how and when to move instead of just stick close to the ECM mech and never be afraid of LRMs. LRMs after the nerf to their spread and damage were only a threat to people who played stupidly.

Also here's a hint, if you powered down and then powered up and then moved, you could dodge LRMs even without cover (you'd still take some damage, just not the full volley usually). There were plenty of ways to not be LRM'd to death. It didn't need such a hardcounter built into the ECM.

Edited by Noth, 19 December 2012 - 04:48 AM.

[Congzilla]

Mack1, on 19 December 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

It's staying by the looks of it so just buy a laser boat and join in the brawl, LRM's/SSRM's were taken out of the game because the masses could not play against them. Games today have to be easymode or the tears flow, so you have no chance of ECM being nerfed, it will stay as an IWIN button for noobs.

Are you kidding me? It has been raining LRMs everywhere with the Stalker out.

[Noth]

Congzilla, on 19 December 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

Are you kidding me? It has been raining LRMs everywhere with the Stalker out.

That's because it is a new mech and people are trying it out (thus less people running ECM) The matches I've had with multiple ECMs on teams, there was maybe one or two volleys of LRMs, I never had to worry about the LRMs.

[Codejack]

Vassago Rain, on 19 December 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

So if ECM is all-powerful, why are people getting destroyed by LRMs again?

Because the matchmaking sucks so bad that it will pit 4 ECM mechs on one team against ZERO on the other. 0 ECM = no protection from LRMs.

[Snuglninja]

Ecm does nothing to enhance this game. The one thing it was suppose to do the dev. accomplished with the nerf of Artemis. It didn't take streak cats out they just turned into streakmandos. Op is not the right word it's just not good for a military style game in its current form. If it's not so out there why can't every chassis use it? Every other piece of equipment can be equipped on a mech. Tell me if you decide to play a light which one are you going to play.

Edited by Snuglninja, 19 December 2012 - 05:04 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

I've created this post, since there is still a lot of feedback and opinions concerning ECM.

ECM had good intentions:

• Reduced LRM/SSRM spam
  
• Allow teams to sneak about the battlefield
  
• Allow for scouting without immediately being spotted

The TAG range increase was a nice attempt towards balance. It still does not change the fact that ECM is grossly useful for its critical slots and tonnage. Though it may not be OP it is not balanced. There are ways around it; a superior team of non-ECM will defeat an unorganized ECM team. However the fact remains that ECM creates a handicap situation for teams without ECM versus teams that do.

My Suggestion:
I'd like to have seen ECM work closer to TT. I feel it currently functions as a band-aid. It doesn't counter guided weapons, it effectively denies the use of them of the have-nots, just from its mere presence on the field. The fact that it is passive, is the icing on the cake. ECM has not created any balance, but simply shifted it around. ECM + SSRM2, like my RVN-3L or COM-2D, make for an especially frustrating yet intimidating enemy. You know something is wrong when people rather run from a Commando, but willing to chase an Atlas. In fact I wouldn't have gotten a Commando if it wasn't for ECM + missile hardpoints. It's a perfect example of a p2w (pay to win) feature. Now the D-DC is perfect for pug stomping because it can pack on guided weapons and use them against new and unaware players (ie: teams without ECM). MWO must be especially frustrating for newbs, as all they know is sometimes their guided weapons works, other times they do not. They probably feel it's a bug. I would like to see ECM work as the following:

• stealth range removed completely; stealth goes to new technologies, Null Signature System and Stealth Armor
  
• increase lock-on time for guidance (same as it does now)
  
• disrupt features of ECM 180m bubble work as it does now
  
• counters BAP, NARC TAG and Artemis , within disrupt bubble, as it does now

As for LRM, we already had a counter, AMS. They should have buffed it. There is no reason any LRMs should be able to get within 100m of a squad of 4 with AMS.


I would also like to see radar be reworked: active and passive radar with a range of 800m and 200m range respectively. Active radar makes it easier to detect enemies, but makes you easier to be detected. One must switch to active radar in order to get a missile lock and share target info between allies. While passive radar allows you to "sneak" around but with a cost of a range decrease in detecting enemies. Mechwarrior:LL does a great job with this.

TL;DR: ECM has good intentions, but should be remodeled to closer to canon; starting with the removal of stealth. New techs created for stealth, null signature and stealth armor. AMS should be buffed and become a real counter to LRM. Radar (active and passive) rework to allow ability to "sneak" with any mech.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 27 December 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[Xendojo]

Just want to add, that the change to NARC did nothing. They are still a waste of tonnage and still do nothing to help fight ECM.

[CatHerder]

The true issue with ECM (besides the ridiculous disrupt bubble) is the fact that its use produces no heat, it requires only space and weight *anywhere* in your mech where you can fit it, whereas its counter-items are either only available in a select few mechs (another ECM, I'll get to that in a minute), or requires a weapon hardpoint and LOS (and god forbid the ECM be on a light mech) and constant "weapon contact" with the target mech (TAG).

The problem with TAG as a counter to ECM - even with its new distance buff - is that light mechs' lag shields still make them near impossible to hit unless your ping is 3ms and you're 5 feet from them. Thus, TAG is all but useless unless they're standing still - which is rarely the case as for light mechs speed is life. Mid-long range, it's near impossible to keep your tag on an enemy light mech unless your ping is REALLY, REALLY LOW and so is theirs.

The problem with ECM as a counter to ECM is the "+1 rule" : the team with the most ECM units will have a huge advantage in battle.

My one suggestion for truly balancing ECM is simply to remove the blanket effect on disrupt (and only on disrupt, counter should still be a blanket although, if you wish, it could be changed to a cone such that the countering mech has to point to the enemy ECM mech somewhat in order to counter).

• Scout mechs with ECM can still scout effectively without being spotted unless they get really careless or foolish
  
• The C&C mech (AS7-D-DC) can still enhance its survivability by being "stealthy", given that it's under-armed for an assault mech
  
• Light mechs running close together as a pack all using ECM are now a less viable option, since a single enemy ECM can counter all of them if they clump up too close. Thus, if you're using ECM, you now have to space out a little bit. This eliminates the newfound role for packs of Ravens as hunter-killers, just tearing everything apart because of their near-invulnerability due ECM+LagShield
  
• We will no longer see processions of 8 mechs under 1 ECM umbrella brazenly crossing open terrain, because they have LRM and are invulnerable to incoming LRM fire.
  
• LRMs are now a viable option again as support fire
  
• Even SMARTER tactical and strategic decisions are needed since now there's no "invisibility" cloak to hide your 3 PPC Awesomes under while you charge forward.

Just my $0.02



If the lag shield weren't an issue, ECM's current form, on light mechs, wouldn't be as much of problem. However, with the Lag Shield in place, it's often necessary to resort to guided weapons (Streak, LRM) to hit lights (let alone accurately). Thus, this combo of ECM + Lag Shield makes for the imbalance to be FAR WORSE than it otherwise would be.

Edited by CatHerder, 19 December 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[DocBach]

The biggest problem with how ECM was implemented is they took what its suppose to do and added stealth functions to it. Before it was 1.5 tons and all it did was jam Beagle, Narc, Artemis and C3. Now it stops target locks for missiles and prohibits you from seeing both good or bad units in the bubble on radar. In MWO the 1.5 ton ECM in the game does the job of Stealth Armor, Null Signature System, Angel ECM, and Guardian ECM, obsoleting a whole bunch of equipment that should have a place in the game in the future before it even comes out. For 1.5 tons. No heat. No drawbacks.

[p4g3m4s7r]

This is the opposite of a solution. You're suggesting to make the game worse so that ECM doesn't seem like it's making the game nearly as bad as it is.

[StalaggtIKE]

I would like to see some more buffs toward TAG. Some suggestions:

• Buff to tag duration
  
• Toggle ability
  
• Change the way it is equiped:
  
  • you must place in energy hardpoint
    
  • it does not use up the energy hardpoint

p4g3m4s7r, on 19 December 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

This is the opposite of a solution. You're suggesting to make the game worse so that ECM doesn't seem like it's making the game nearly as bad as it is.

I agree. I would prefer to see ECM follow more closely to TT rules. However Paul has made it pretty clear that PGI intends on keeping ECM the way it is. My suggestion is to lower the advantage gap afforded to those with ECM.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 19 December 2012 - 07:47 AM.

[Glucose]

I would like to see one change that would help immensely.

• Narc is no longer affected by ECM

[Noth]

They just need to remove the null signature system from the ECM implementation. Make it like it is in TT (this includes blocking the shared info we currently have as that is basically the C3 system) and add in that it increases locking time. It does not prevent locks or prevent you from targeting them.

Leave the blocking locks and preventing being picked up by sensors to the null signature system.

[Snib]

What is there still to discuss about ECM, in particular after ECM counter mode was nerfed last patch, making ECM even stronger?

At equal skill level, the team with more ECM Ravens wins, easy as that.

[AlanEsh]

Narc needs to cut through ECM and provide a big bright target for long range friendlies, period.

ECM needs:
- to take up at least one more Crit slot
- to take up 2-3 more tons of weight
- to produce heat at the rate of one continuously fired Medium Laser
- have an On/Off switch (this relates to the previous point)