1017 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

ECM needs to let LRM boats lock without any additional aid to counter it. Even if this means double lock on times. the TAG/NARC fix is just not enough. Getting locks at 600meters on mechs with ECM without any additional aid seems fine to me.

[BumbleBee]

I like the idea of ECM being strong, but this is WAY too much. We need a counter, even if it just alleiviates some of the effects.

I'd propose that BAP can weaken ECM effects (your own BAP Mech only).
Now, the detection range is 200m(?) for all, maybe extend that for BAP equiped Mechs to ~450m.
Only the Mech detecting with BAP can see the targets on radar.
When BAP Mech "R" Locks an ECM protected enemy mech, it's position is broadcast to teammates as per normal play unless BAP spotter is within the 180m ECM bubble.

ECM is still strong and allows stealth play covering teammates positions out to a good range, still requires teamwork to counter and gives a reason to equip BAP.

Edited by BumbleBee, 19 December 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[Noth]

BumbleBee, on 19 December 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

I like the idea of ECM being strong, but this is WAY too much. We need a counter, even if it just alleiviates some of the effects.

I'd propose that BAP can weaken ECM effects (your own BAP Mech only).
Now, the detection range is 200m(?) for all, maybe extend that for BAP equiped Mechs to ~450m.
Only the Mech detecting with BAP can see the targets on radar.
When BAP Mech "R" Locks an ECM protected enemy mech, it's position is broadcast to teammates as per normal play unless BAP spotter is within the 180m ECM bubble.

ECM is still strong and allows stealth play covering teammates positions out to a good range, still requires teamwork to counter and gives a reason to equip BAP.

ECM isn't supposed to be stealth. Null signature systems are for stealth and they pay a hefty price for it (7 crit slots taken up, generating extra heat while active and only effects the mech it is equiped on). ECM is ECM with a Nullsig system that blankets team mates with no downsides that a null sig system has. This ECM we have completely replaces the null signature system. That is just bad.

[StalaggtIKE]

Numberwang, on 19 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

I only beat the deadest of horses, so here I am.

Apparently PGI didn't get the message. We should continue to share our feedback. To give up, would be to give up on MWO.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 19 December 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[StUffz]

Vashramire, on 19 December 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

From Sarna


I would understand this to mean that any and all jamming would happen at or within 180m. Possibly nullifying BAP and target sharing with C3 and Artemis at all ranges but still allowing missile locks (at current 25% increased lock time for enemy being under ECM) but limiting them to LOS. There is a great deal of leniency in how to read its functionality and I'm not sure what would truely make it "balanced" since everyone seems to have different views on how OP it is and how they would like it fixed, but how I described if think would be relatively fair for everyone if not a step in the right direction.

You need to read the TT rulebook and the example picture. the 180 m is only the effect of the ECM guardian (protection) bubble. All what wants to shoot into or through the bubble is disrupted by ECM.

PGI should just delimit the ECM mechslots in missions. That solves lots of issues without nerfing ECM too bad.

[Noth]

StUffz, on 19 December 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

You need to read the TT rulebook and the example picture. the 180 m is only the effect of the ECM guardian (protection) bubble. All what wants to shoot into or through the bubble is disrupted by ECM.

PGI should just delimit the ECM mechslots in missions. That solves lots of issues without nerfing ECM too bad.

It doesn't prevent targeting or being picked up on sensors, nor does it prevent missile lock unless you are in the 180 meter bubble like it does here. The system that does that is called a null signature system or the stealth armor (when paired with the guardian ECM). Both of which take up much more space (7 slots for the nullsig, 14 for the stealth armor) and generates heat while active. The stealth armor also makes the mech it is on act as if it effected by an enemy ECM while it is active.

So we effectively have a null sig system that covers team mates without any of the drawbacks.

Edited by Noth, 19 December 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[CatHerder]

<PGI-THINKING>Wait...what's this? Many users expressing discomfort with the ECM system again and asking us to balance it? QUICK! FIND ANOTHER WAY TO BUFF IT AND ANOTHER USELESS WAY TO COMPENSATE FOR IT!</PGI-THINKING>

Joking aside...

I think we all agree that these are the biggest issues with ECM:

• ZERO downsides/risks
  
  • Doesn't generate heat
    
  • Doesn't take up a hardpoint
    
  • Has no use limitation in time
    
  • System can be turned on and left on unattended (unattended operation)
• Advantage conferred far outweighs the cost of deployment (money/space/weight)
  
  • Rendered undetectable except at extreme close ranges
    
  • Can render friendly units undetectable except at close ranges
    
  • Can break all missile locks within the protection bubble
• Current mode of operation means the team with the most ECM units has the greatest potential advantage (if its users have half a clue, which by now most do)
  
  • One ECM unit in counter mode will only counter the nearest enemy ECM unit in disrupt mode
    
  • Thus, a +1 doctrine is necessary to gain an advantage...this breaks PUGs utterly because in those games you completely lack control of who gets dropped in with you and what their loadout is
• Due to bad netcode (a.k.a. "light mech lagshield"), the counter is effectively rendered useless because of the difficulty involved keeping it on target (due to lagshield and fast moving and maneuvering targets)
  
  • Fixing the netcode is far more involved a task than fixing ECM - at least, temporarily until the new netcode is done. If the new netcode is done, and works well, and removes the lagshield on light mechs, ECM can get re-buffed to what it is now. But for God's sake THINK OF THE LIGHT MECHS!
    
  • Currently, the only weapon light mechs are really vulnerable to (unless they stand still or run directly at an enemy) are guided weapons like LRMs and SSRMs. Everything else has difficulty causing damage due to lagshield. I've scored the occasional lucky hit with a gauss or AC5 or whatnot, but that's 1 hit out of hundreds of rounds fired. I'm not a crack shot, but I'm not a crap shot either.

So...now comes the time when PGI goes public saying "we've read all your rantings and reasonings, and THESE are the reasons we think ECM is fine the way it is". Or (hopefully!) "we've read all your feedback, and we have found that ECM needs to be adjusted. Which of these ways do you think would work best to restore balance? ...".

PGI going public saying "it's fine as-is because we say so" without offering a good justification means that none of the devs have ever played a match against 3 or 4 ECM Ravens rolling as a pack just absolutely tearing everything to shreds because Lagshield makes them near impervious to direct-fire damage, and ECM nullifies guided fire. If they had, they'd know how imbalanced the current implementation is.

Just my $0.02

[Haitchpeasauce]

Extending TAG range has been helpful and a step in the right direction, thank you PGI.

Let's not forget that ECM is entirely PASSIVE and doesn't even require power to run.

Seriously, power down an ECM mech and the ECM effects still work.

200m detection range is just poor. Should be more like 350m-500m.

ECM bubble should also require LOS to benefit teammates and hinder enemies.

These changes would encourage MORE TACTICS from the ECM mech. Isn't that what PGI wants?

LRM Artemis has been nerfed again to now require LOS, so there are now more than enough counters to Artemis. Something has to be given back.

I think SSRM should be able to fire within the ECM bubble.
Why? If I can lock onto a target while within the bubble and gain damage/loadout information, then Streaks must be able to lock on as well.

This will balance the fact that RVN-3L and COM-2D are allowed to boat Streaks (and they certainly all do) but any other mech with Streaks has no way to reply to that. That's not tactics, that's walking around with an eternal trump card.

NOTE: I rarely pilot an LRM or SSRM boat, so I'm not writing this purely for my own interests.

Thank you.

Edited by Haitchpeasauce, 19 December 2012 - 07:05 PM.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

The OP got it right. If it's effective range is 180m then why does it reduce your sensor range to 200m??? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills (Mugatu, Zoolander). Stupid is as stupid does. Thanks Forrest Gump.

[Valcoer]

I have been on strike since ecm was introduced. I play a few matches with friends here and there instead of several hours per day like I use to. I came out of strike to see what has been done to balance the game. what I found was nothing has been done to balance the game.
If it is my understanding after reading pauls statement that ecm is working properly and will not be changed and that counters to the ecm are in the works. So by that statement it is logical to presume that Paul knows ecm unbalances the game or there would not be counters in the works so my suggestion is this:

1. remove ecm from the game until such time as all counters are ready to be put in to the game in order to preserve fair, fun, and balanced game play.
2. refund all players who have bought ecm their c bills
3. increase the cost of ecm to 15million cbills or more. (I actually think this price is low but hey you got to start somewhere)
4. require ecm to take up an energy weapon slot same as tag takes an energy weapon slot and narc takes a missile slot.
or
1. remove ecm from the game until such time as all counters are ready to be put in to the game in order to preserve fair, fun, and balanced game play.
2. offer ecm 1(only reduces lock on time of lrms and streaks only for equiped mech) 1 ton 1 slot, ecm 2 (reduces lock on time of lrms and streaks for all friendlies in range)2tons 2slots, ecm 3 (the current version of the ecm - the counter mode) 3 tons 3 slots, ecm 4 (current version of the ecm)4 tons 4slots.
3. require master efficiencies for ecms 2-4 to use.

its obvious your willing to loose diehard players who love this universe in order to satisfy your own deep seated needs and are willing to rely on casual players who probably have never heard of battletech before they started playing this thinking that they will be your bread and butter but we have seen games die due to this type of thinking. dont let mwo go the way of 3025.
I will of course be on strike until such time as you return balance to the game because I dont play games that arent fun.

[TML Winston]

CatHerder, on 19 December 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

The true issue with ECM (besides the ridiculous disrupt bubble) is the fact that its use produces no heat, i

I would also add this: If you remove the disrupt bubble, then allow ALL mechs to be able to add this module to thier sets.
ECM would otherwise need to take up large amounts of slots or be easily shot dead. like, where you have ECM has zero armor and goes out fast.

[GoriKarafong]

nothing new here...

Still it is broken big time, as you can see more and more ECM mechs on the battlefield, as ECM intensive tactics are the best at the moment.

Problem is still ECM is way to overpowered, acting in canon and beeing a cheep must have equip. It must be nerved big time (there are a lot of interesting suggestions in the forums) and be provided to lots more mechs for availabiility.

If it is not dominating anymore and in balance of thinking to invest those tons/slots or to better spent it for something else, than we got our gamebalance back which should be fun.

READ: ECM is not the problem, I like electronic warfare. But the effect is too strong on gameplay so it is a MUSTHAVE. But I dont want to NEED to run only 2 kind of mechs. BORING!

[RJF Volkodav]

Guardian ECM shall no prevent target lock and/or missile firing. Even experimental Angel ECM just prevents streak to act as streak - but SSRMs still can be used as SRM.
One way is to leave it as it is in CBT - but it seems it will be useless by just countering enemy FCS and probes, maybe, additionally, give it the ability to increase locking time, time to get target mark, and time to acquire target data.
That will be quite enough for passive, low weight, low volume equipment.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

RJF Volkodav, on 19 December 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

Guardian ECM shall no prevent target lock and/or missile firing. Even experimental Angel ECM just prevents streak to act as streak - but SSRMs still can be used as SRM.
One way is to leave it as it is in CBT - but it seems it will be useless by just countering enemy FCS and probes, maybe, additionally, give it the ability to increase locking time, time to get target mark, and time to acquire target data.
That will be quite enough for passive, low weight, low volume equipment.

How dare u suggest that ECM be toned to be as useful as...as....as Beagle is currently. At least it will be balanced.

[steelblueskies]

as the other ecm thread at 102 pages will not permit replies atm. continuations must go here for now.

still no ask the devs 29 responses, but this is to be expected what with garth's wedding business, the holidays, and some of the *hard* questions.

i know there's the bit raised with ngng as well that will be a bit until it gets redressed.

have spent more time futzing with longrange and tag specifically against ecm targets.

tag locks on disrupt mode machines can be interrupted by friendly and enemy mechs, as well as cover and to a limited degree lagshield/warping on the faster targets, and lock times being what they are relocking may take longer than flight time. that it eats an energy hardpoint makes this more punitive, as again, if i can hold tag for ten seconds, i could have drilled that nurfherder two or three times over with directed energy weapons with plenty of lost tracking time between shots that were not punitive.

i am pondering if simply setting missile flight speed to just above the maximum possible mech movement speed might not be another element, as observing a light beeline in a straight line away from a launch and outrunning it outright ... well.. something a bit off there.

in any event i figured i'd toss it out there and see if anyone resides near http://en.wikipedia..../Jordan_Weisman
who might be able to set up a short interview and get his thoughts on the topic should things continue to float until around february. consider that the "thermonuclear" option. might be an interesting suggestion to the ngng guys actually.

anywho, try not to bury them too hardcore 'til after new years when they can actually start dealing with things again, but don't let is get rug swept either.

[RainbowToh]

Raven n Commando with ECM n Streaks just trolled all other lights with their streaks n being safe from LRM n SSRM. N with lagshield protecting them, they have a field day simply rolling over all other lights without ECM. This will not do for PUG as you would not know whether your team have ECM or not, and I think no one wants to play that single variant of Raven or Commando forever unless he just want a high KD

[Tarys]

Did not read everything or better to say nothing except the first post ...

Before ECM i loved my Raven 3L. With the introduction i still loved it and was eager to give those fotm streakcats the well deserved payback. Right now i don´t like to play it any longer because it is now fotm light mech number 1 for all players who can´t even hit a standing atlas ... as well it sucks to run against those so called elitest premade players that are running around with 4 of them (yeah i know - looking for some competition / training for 8vs8 and so on).

While i wouldn´t change the way ECM works i would reduce it to one mech able to carry it -> Cicada.
Reason for this is pretty easy: it is fast and therefore a good recon; with the right engine it can avoid the real lights; but due to only one energy hardpoint it has mostly little chance against most lights and needs some backup. against slower targets or missileboats it should do pretty well even with one large laser f.e.

And i don´t think that most players would run around with the Cicada due to the missing SSRM2 and lasers ... hitting a fullspeed Jenner or something else with an AC2 ain´t so easy.

[ltwally]

Even after nerf, ECM is way too powerful for an item that weighs only 1.5 tonnes, uses 2 crit spaces, uses no weapon slots, generates no heat and requires no ammo.

It's value should be situational, and it should be open to pretty much all mechs, in line with the other pieces of non-weapon equipment, like Narc, Beagle and Artemis. All of those are of modest value, and are a trade-off for their weight. No one buys a mech just to be able to have those. People are choosing specific mechs so that they can have ECM. That's pretty much screams out "broken".

Additionally, there should be modules to defeat equipment (Artemis, Beagle, ECM, TAG), allowing the player with the appropriate module to be unaffected by such equipment.

[steelblueskies]

just solodrop pugged an assault and had icefang on team by chance (waves again). wanna guess enemy team comp? hint. there were four raven 3l with streaks.

we had one. that was 5/16ths of the match, one chassis.

we won btw, thanks to a combination of disconnect, black screen, and fps bug on the enemy team leaving them down three. still ended with 5 deaths. yep. ecm continues to be just fine. right.

[MadaO]

In Battletech rules ECM does not prevent LRM from firing. Here it does. The only players disadvantaged by ECM are the missile users who rely on a lock. The effect is negligible for non-lock weapons. As I said before, I can load direct fire weapons and not know ECM exists in the game and still play almost normally.

Missiles have been tweaked to correct balance already. Why implement a simple-to-install gadget with no significant drawbacks that only penalises these weapons? TAG is nearly useless by the way. If an enemy allows you to target your TAG on him and stand there while your missiles travel slowly towards him, you only need MGs to beat that kind of player. That's standing in the open for nearly 10 seconds where he is staring at you while you do your TAG nonsense. When conditions are critical and the enemy has a shred of clue, TAG completely fails. Completely.