1017 replies to this topic

[ltwally]

I just PUG'd a game. My team had 3 JR7-D's, a couple Cataphracts, and I don't remember what else. Enemy team had 3 RVN-3L's, a Cicada, a Stalker or two, a Cataphract and I don't know what else.

They had four units with ECM.

My team had no ECM.

That comes out to 6 tonnes worth of equipment, amongst hundreds of tonnes worth of mechs.

You couldn't see friendlies on sensor, unless they were in visual. You couldn't see enemies on sensor, period. You couldn't lock on to them, but they were free to lock on us.

The final score? 0 - 8. It was like watching a snuff-film.

ECM is so beyond broken that it's not even funny.

Anyone that says otherwise is either giddily running around with ECM -- and therefore lying about its viability -- or is smoking crack.

ECM should be an item whose effectiveness is situation.

Counter Artemis, Beagle, NARC? Sure.
Disrupt lock within 180m? Sure
Disrupt lock outside 180m? Broke. What's the point of AMS, then? ECM does plenty else, and you think it needs to be a far more powerful missile shield than AMS -- a system that does use ammo, and therefore can run out of bullets or experience an ammo explosion?? Really? REALLY??
Disrupt comms/sensors otherwise? Broke. It's something PGI pulled out of their posteriors, and it flat out wrecks coordination, unless you're grouping with TeamSpeak. Is it PGI's intention that we have to have mics and 3rd party voice software in order to play their game effectively. If so, say so up front.


Additionally, there absolutely needs to be a counter-ECM module that is available to all mechs.

As an addendum, I wish to say that I am done with this game until the next patch. Afterwards, I will see where ECM and the rest of the game is at, and re-evaluate. But I refuse to waste any more of my time with MW:O, as it currently stands.


Dear PGI: If you ever want even one cent of my money, you'll fix ECM and stop putting out equipment that needs an entire forest of nerf-bats before it's balanced. Here's some wisdom for you: when you spring new stuff on the game environment, start it out on the weak side, and then scale it up. That way you don't run the risk of completely breaking the ecosystem.

Edited by ltwally, 23 December 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[DocBach]

ICEFANG13, on 23 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Haha NARC is so so so so terrible, it makes me wonder if they are playing the same game. Even if it countered ECM while on the mech, the 20-30 seconds and required lock on make it so bad for its tonnage. It really needs a performance buff, not a duration buff (although I am a fan of both, more EW is good).

Narc should keep someone lit on radar despite loss of LOS, unless it gets blocked out by ECM or the location its on is destroyed. Even with a 30 second time limit being lit up like a Christmas tree on radar could be a death sentence if the team was coordinated with LRMs. That should be the benefit of ECM, it should block advanced technologies like NARC, not EVERYTHING.

[Blood78]

Marcus Tanner, on 23 December 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

Are you sure?

This patch the devs were convinced that upping the duration of Narc from 15s to 20s would make it a fair choice for its tonnage compared to ECM.

They already saw a patch where the 8v8 environment seemed to consist of at *least* 50% ECM carriers. They didn't think that was evidence of a problem.

It takes time for PGI to take it seriously. It took a while for PGI to react to Streaks doing center torso only and balance that as well. But now its much more balanced weapon.

Way to speed that up is people raging about it on the forum.

[Corvus Antaka]

After spending my bonus 8 mill plus on a new Atlas D-DC and running the mech for a good 20 hours since, I can confidently say that ECM is broken and OP.

why? on the odd chance I rush out into the open and some LRM boat hits me, I just turn on ECM, and 70% of the time the LRMS stop coming.

sometimes he has a TAG, then I take some serious pain. But this is not very often, probably due to pugging partially.

It's like a blanket immunity to a weapon type. I also don't see that the buffs to TAG where worth it. TAG should be a scout mechs LRM assist, not an LRM boats fallback so he can hit his target while he is watching him rush across an open plain at 750 meters.

What is interesting though is that LRMS are now more OP when they do hit with TAG & Artemis because they tear to the center torso with much to much accuracy while tracking like clan streak LRMS.

pre-ECM LRMS where fine after the LRM warrior hotfix. with 1.8 damage they hit quite hard again, and yet ECM is such a HUGE counter combined with the ample cover we have that LRM's continue to be a joke to any ECM carrying mech.

SSRM's are actually likeable and well counter balanced by ECM imho. However, the requirement for a small mech to have ECM + SSRMS because if he doesnt and runs into an ECM light he is doomed...this is very bad! IT makes only the ECM lights worth having, everything else is relegated to a second class mech.

If in fact ECM stays the way it is implemented now I think the game is done for. You may think I am being extreme, but while I do log a lot right now due to holidays & grinding for cbills - the gameplay alone is not keeping me here as much as the cbill grind for a couple more mechs and the hope that PGI again steps up a little higher to the plate and designs a better overall weapon balance system that meets the standard of TT and previous mechwarrior games better.

LRM's are integral to btech and mechwarrior, and as a brawler myself I honestly dislike how weak the LRMS are as it significantly increases the ease of my gameplay & challenge. As someone who also enjoys using LRM's, I simply can't accept that LRM's are completely nurfed vs an entire team so long as 1 enemy ECM mech bubbles the entire enemy team - completely taking me from viability in the match unless a tagging scout or a LOS for my own TAG exists.

I could be wrong. maybe as part of electronic warfare around here PGI wants exactly this - teams must have tags to use LRMS, or NARC, and ECM is just stealth armour that can only counter itself.

The fact ECM mech variants are highly expensive and so dominant that others only become training chassis could well be intended to push more purchases, etc.

But in terms of gameplay, the ECM absolutely needs to be addressed for what they do to LRMS.

LRMS themselves need to be looked at again. Letting the pilot arc the LRMS over cover, having LRMS turn and track much less rapidly so they are evadable rather than streak LRMS, and having cover & AMS play an important part in negating them are all possibilities.

if pilots had to aim their LRMS and could in doing so hit over cover, LRMS could be used as flushing mechs, and AMS would be vital for brawler teams.

Overall ECM's doing way to much, and much to powerfully.

I personally am very happy with Dec. 18th patch, and provided collisions come back we see fun jumpjets and death from above the game is really making progress imho.

However, weapon damage & in general game balance and interaction of rock/paper/scissors and the ability for any player using any config to be viable must exist. right now flamers, machine guns and LRMS all fall into the completely unviable for the most part, and SSRMS are only truly safe and viable with the knowledge you have an ECM or 2 backing you up.

[steelblueskies]

two systems in combination with lagshield are stupidly brokenly over the top.

if you have ever experienced the blocky graphics and text, with no map display other than cap points and squares fr targetable units with the attendant fps issues, you know you can't really aim or see buildings/terrain/etc.

imagine a no proficiency raven 3l with two ssrm2's, and ecm. imagine starting in that glitchy graphics mode unable to see much of anything.

now imagine being the top performer on your team, and the only one with a kill by using ecm+audio cues to get off streaks.

i had that happen a few days ago, posted the end image unedited with the barely intelligible scoreboard in mech and weapon balance, and haven't been on since.

when a combination of systems is so over the top you can get a kill blind in short range amidst multiple enemies using audio feedback.. just effing broken. though i must give kudos to the audio team. when playing blind one comes to appreciate how much feedback they crafted in the audio system, and it's very very well done. not perfect but almost.

[Tolkien]

Bump for a good conversation.

The original ask the devs question on `how does broken balance like this make it into the game` is up over 181 likes now http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1598770

The devs decided not to answer 'ask the devs 29' and went for 'ask the devs 29A'. I caught on fast and was sure to put the question to them again here: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1640301

If you like the question as posed, please like it so it stays hard for them to ignore. I wish I could say that I didn't think skipping ask the devs to 29A was a ploy to bury the ECM question.... factor of 8x higher than any other question and they just decide to move on - BS.

[steelblueskies]

Tolkien, on 23 December 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Bump for a good conversation.

The original ask the devs question on `how does broken balance like this make it into the game` is up over 181 likes now http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1598770

The devs decided not to answer 'ask the devs 29' and went for 'ask the devs 29A'. I caught on fast and was sure to put the question to them again here: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1640301

If you like the question as posed, please like it so it stays hard for them to ignore. I wish I could say that I didn't think skipping ask the devs to 29A was a ploy to bury the ECM question.... factor of 8x higher than any other question and they just decide to move on - BS.

just in case you missed it, ngng54 went up and they posed this. the response seemed to have devolved into fluffy kittens and a line about them hoping people will dumbfire on mechs huddled around an ecm atlas as that will still be effective.

still waiting for a real answer as opposed to we hope people will do A while going LALALALALALA while they do B C D and E instead.

[Tolkien]

steelblueskies, on 23 December 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

just in case you missed it, ngng54 went up and they posed this. the response seemed to have devolved into fluffy kittens and a line about them hoping people will dumbfire on mechs huddled around an ecm atlas as that will still be effective.

still waiting for a real answer as opposed to we hope people will do A while going LALALALALALA while they do B C D and E instead.

Yeah, the excuse of dumbfiring missiles is laughable against anything except a stationary assault mech, and even an atlas can just back up a few feet while your missiles are in flight. That suggestion was a really bad joke. When he said 'they are effective...' I spat my drink out a little bit since any real direct fire weapon is much more effective.

Oh and with their 150m minimum range and the maps being choked with cover points you'll be lucky to get off a volley or two.

What an awful joke...

[Marcus Tanner]

ltwally, on 23 December 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

The final score? 0 - 8. It was like watching a snuff-film.

Kindly refrain from that kind of reference in the future. I'm not going to call the mods or anything, but it would be nice if you didn't do that.

Blood78, on 23 December 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

It takes time for PGI to take it seriously. It took a while for PGI to react to Streaks doing center torso only and balance that as well. But now its much more balanced weapon.

Way to speed that up is people raging about it on the forum.

I'll try to stick with disappointment and concern until then.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 23 December 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

What is interesting though is that LRMS are now more OP when they do hit with TAG & Artemis because they tear to the center torso with much to much accuracy while tracking like clan streak LRMS.

If in fact ECM stays the way it is implemented now I think the game is done for. You may think I am being extreme, but while I do log a lot right now due to holidays & grinding for cbills - the gameplay alone is not keeping me here as much as the cbill grind [...]

I find that LRMs are still over-represented in PUG games, and that when there's no ECM on the other side they often dominate the field.

This over-representation may be due to other players like myself who use it compensate for poor frame rate (or others for poor ping). It may also be due to its usefullness in dodging lag-shield. If that's the reasons LRMs are being used then I'm fine with it. If it's because LRMs are too effective (probably a big factor), then they should be taken down a peg.

steelblueskies, on 23 December 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

when a combination of systems is so over the top you can get a kill blind in short range amidst multiple enemies using audio feedback.. just effing broken. though i must give kudos to the audio team. when playing blind one comes to appreciate how much feedback they crafted in the audio system, and it's very very well done. not perfect but almost.

It should be noted that while I didn't record or post it, I did manage to get a kill playing "blind" in the same way by using LRMs.

Tolkien, on 23 December 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Yeah, the excuse of dumbfiring missiles is laughable against anything except a stationary assault mech, and even an atlas can just back up a few feet while your missiles are in flight. That suggestion was a really bad joke.

There was a game where I put 3 dumbfired salvos of 45 LRMs into a stationary Atlas D-DC on a hill. Good hits with all three salvos. My damage for the entire match was, as I recall, 147.

There were a number of medium laser hits in there as well as the LRMs. I'm convinced that dumbfired LRMs do less damage by a fair margin.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 23 December 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

I also suggest that if the question is not answered, we all (who agree ECM is OP) post the question over and over together. It needs serious answering, it cannot be ignored any longer (and PC gamer should not be the go to way to discuss it with the beta testers, US!)

Edited by ICEFANG13, 23 December 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[Marcus Tanner]

steelblueskies, on 23 December 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

just in case you missed it, ngng54 went up and they posed this. the response seemed to have devolved into fluffy kittens and a line about them hoping people will dumbfire on mechs huddled around an ecm atlas as that will still be effective.

Having just heard the relevant part of ngng54, Garth actually suggested dumbfiring LRMs over a hill to flush out ECM mechs that are hiding there. It was an offhand response and I certainly don't want to hammer him on it or take it as a guarantee of future functionality, but it sounded like a silly thing to say.

I don't know if they plan on letting you dumbfire LRMs indirectly, but it most certainly *cannot* be done right now. Incidentally, without having those indirect LRMs come down vertically they wouldn't connect against a target hiiding behind a hill anyway. In addition, LRMs don't exactly spread out very much, making them a poor saturation fire weapon

EDIT: Garth suggested that the counter to ECM is to simply avoid using lock-on weapons, and just spam ballistics and lasers as well as SRMs. I'll note that hestipulated this advice in the context of an 8v8 game.

The problem there of course is that even if there were no lock-on weapons in the game, no Narc, no Beagle, no Artemis, and no sharing of targeting data, ECM would still be worth taking for the reduced sensor range and cutting off minimap use.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 23 December 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[Thoman Coston]

Current detection range of 200m (25%) is way too extreme. Radar detection range under ECM cover should be 400m.

[Ronin Cahill]

BAP should counter the ecm, as with any electronic warefare, there is always a counter. for the time beign i love being in my raven and being relativly untouchable...at elast from lrms and the like.
Ronin

[Blood78]

I started to run into what I was saying was going to happen. 3-4 man premade lights with ECM and Streaks. More people need to do this and abuse ECM to show how poweful it is and get the base playerpool to start raging all over about it so PGI will respond and tweak ECM more quickly

[DerHuhnTeufel]

ECM is definitely needed in some form so we don't have 1 scout with a tag and 7 LRMs dominating everything. I had an LRM stalker ******* up in the cave in the frozen city far away from an entrance earlier today. There was no way the missiles had a straight path to me, but the solid cave wall didn't do jack to stop them.

That being said, three major changes need to occur:
1) You should be able to target anything within 100-150 yards, regardless of ECM. That way one mech with ECM can't nullify every SSRM in existence.
2) Need a cooldown on the toggle between modes. 30s ought to do it. Right now a lot of people are constantly swapping modes, because it effectively disrupts and counters. If you don't use lock-on weapons yourself, it's extremely effective.
3) Either increase the range at which you can detect a mech under ECM or decrease the range that you can normally detect a mech at. A 75% reduction in range is insane for a module with no downside outside of weight.

[Scar]

My PoV - how ECM affected the game.(including my PoV - as a unit commander).


Let's sum up all aspects.

1) Current ECM implementation launched the "ECM arms race".

2) ECM erased whole chassis' and many of Mech' models from the game.

3) Lights w/o ECM are useless and not viable ATM - their counterparts with ECM rule the battlefield completely.

Light w/o ECM:

• Can't fight
  
• Can't hide
  
• Can't run

4) Virtually, Atlas AS7-D-DC is now the only and the main Assault - in the most part of battleworthy units and pre-mades. Other Atlases are very rare and AS7-K is even more than a rare - it's just simply extinct.


5) LRM's are now sucks. Even with the 750m TAG. Any, more or less skilled team with ECM D-DC and scouts easily wipe out any LRM pre-made.

Now, what should be changed to make things reasonable and balanced:

• Throw your idea about TAG as a counter to ECM into the trash can. Bad idea - especially with the current net-code.
  
• Make the detection range/RCS(radar cross section) of the Mechs depending on their weight. It will help to balance lightest Mechs(Commando or Flea) with the heavier ones and make them more viable.
  
• Make two versions of ECM - light(individual electronic warfare defence kit for scouts) and heavy(collective defence - for heavies). Light version may weight the same 1,5t and take 2CS, but heavy should weight much more - around 5-7 tonnes.
  
• Take from the light version an ability to cover friendly Mech'.
  
• Make the heavy ECM modules interfere with each other - make them drop ECM-cover off, if their carriers at a distance less than 180m.
  
• Make so if ECM-module is in Disrupt mode - its carrier can't use guided weapons, like SSRM and LRM. It's unacceptable that scout with ECM can fire SSRM, at the same time dusrupting the enemy SSRM. Scout should decide - he's a scout or a killer. Not both at the same time - it's against all principles of balance and game-design.

P.S. BTW, most of these consequences and flaws were obvious, even before the ECM-patch. I was decided this thing is insanely OP and completely broken - right after i've read the ECM-tutorial. The most strange thing is that Paul and other PGI game-designers didn't notice these flaws when ECM was in developing phase.

Edited by Scar, 24 December 2012 - 02:05 AM.

[PsycoSurgeon]

Personnally I think the best change for the ECM would be to make the mech using it unable to lock on with any lockable missiles whilst the ecm is active. This would stop these streak ravens and commando's from destroying everything whilst being untargetable themselves...if they want to use their missiles then they have to turn off the ecm...or use weapons that they have to actually aim....

EDIT: Just read Scars post above and realised he said exactly the same thing....

Edited by DrEvilsShornScrotum, 24 December 2012 - 06:56 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

I like that idea too, personally, I'd prefer if the ECM mech lost everything that the ECMed enemies do. You can turn it off by keeping it on counter. That is a disadvantage, but also very strong still.

[Thorqemada]

Marcus Tanner, on 23 December 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Having just heard the relevant part of ngng54, Garth actually suggested dumbfiring LRMs over a hill to flush out ECM mechs that are hiding there. It was an offhand response and I certainly don't want to hammer him on it or take it as a guarantee of future functionality, but it sounded like a silly thing to say.

Well, that sounds strange bcs you can dumbfire LRMs only at things you have a LOS to - firing over a hill simply does not work without lock.
Afaik he plays exclusive his Laserboat-Cicada and probably has little experience with LRMs outside of the "Incoming Missile" part.

I guess that ECM will probably undergo some more iterations until its weighted right into the game context of risk vs reward - i feel its still all reward and no risk atm.

Edited by Thorqemada, 24 December 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

ECM had good intentions:

• Reduced LRM/SSRM spam
  
• Allow teams to sneak about the battlefield
  
• Allow for scouting without immediately being spotted

I'd like to have seen ECM work closer to TT. I feel it currently functions as a band-aid. It doesn't counter guided weapons, it effectively denies the use of them of the have-nots, just from its mere presence on the field. The fact that it is passive, is the icing on the cake. ECM has not created any balance, but simply shifted it around. ECM + SSRM2, like my RVN-3L or COM-2D, make for an especially frustrating yet intimidating enemy. You know something is wrong when people rather run from a Commando, but willing to chase an Atlas. In fact I wouldn't have gotten a Commando if it wasn't for ECM + missile hardpoints. It's a perfect example of a p2w (pay to win) feature. Now the D-DC is perfect for pug stomping because it can pack on guided weapons and use them against new and unaware players (ie: teams without ECM). MWO must be especially frustrating for newbs, as all they know is sometimes their guided weapons works, other times they do not. They probably feel it's a bug. I would like to see ECM work as the following:

• stealth range removed completely; stealth goes to new technologies, Null Signature System and Stealth Armor
  
• increase lock-on time for guidance (same as it does now)
  
• disrupt features of ECM 180m bubble work as it does now
  
• counters BAP, NARC TAG and Artemis , within disrupt bubble, as it does now

As for LRM, we already had a counter, AMS. They should have buffed it. There is no reason any LRMs should be able to get within 100m of a squad of 4 with AMS.


I would also like to see radar be reworked: active and passive radar with a range of 800m and 200m range respectively. Active radar makes it easier to detect enemies, but makes you easier to be detected. One must switch to active radar in order to get a missile lock and share target info between allies. While passive radar allows you to "sneak" around but with a cost of a range decrease in detecting enemies. Mechwarrior:LL does a great job with this.

TL;DR: ECM has good intentions, but should be remodeled to closer to TT; starting with the removal of stealth. New techs created for stealth, null signature and stealth armor. AMS should be buffed and become a real counter to LRM. Radar (active and passive) rework to allow ability to "sneak" with any mech.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 24 December 2012 - 11:34 AM.