1017 replies to this topic

[Evinthal]

StalaggtIKE, on 30 December 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Apparently you did not, or you wouldn't have wasted your time quoting and responding to my comment, listing things most people figured out within 3 games of playing with ECM.


Hmmm, when do you counter ECM? ALWAYS. That is if you have no ECM on your team. If you do then you just have to decide who will do the countering. No rocket science or Sun Tzu strategizing required. ECM is an advantage for the opposite team, you are best focusing on eliminating. I think that is pretty clear to everyone. The fact ECM is such a prime target is proof that it's unbalanced. A COM-2D a prime target over an Atlas? Yeah, very balanced.


You sound like a sad, sad little man. Some psychologist would suggest a few more hugs from Mommy could have prevented this.

Apparently they didn't figure it out after playing 3 games if people are still whining about it how op it is.

I see Atlases targeted over Commandos frequently, except by other light mechs. Hell I've gotten pretty good at ignoring a commando harrasing me and not dying while pecking an atlas apart with my muromets, and then turning and killing off said commando after the atlas has gone down.

Please don't bring your own family life into this.

Besides: trolling you people is way too much fun.

Edited by Evinthal, 30 December 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Evinthal, on 30 December 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Apparently they didn't figure it out after playing 3 games if people are still whining about it how op it is.

I see Atlases targeted over Commandos frequently, except by other light mechs. Hell I've gotten pretty good at ignoring a commando harrasing me and not dying while pecking an atlas apart with my muromets, and then turning and killing off said commando after the atlas has gone down.

Please don't bring your own family life into this.

Besides: trolling you people is way too much fun.

Reread what I posted. You missed like..., all of it.

StalaggtIKE said:

]Apparently you did not, or you wouldn't have wasted your time quoting and responding to my comment, listing things most people figured out within 3 games of playing with ECM.


Hmmm, when do you counter ECM? ALWAYS. That is if you have no ECM on your team. If you do then you just have to decide who will do the countering. No rocket science or Sun Tzu strategizing required. ECM is an advantage for the opposite team, you are best focusing on eliminating. I think that is pretty clear to everyone. The fact ECM is such a prime target is proof that it's unbalanced. A COM-2D a prime target over an Atlas? Yeah, very balanced.


You sound like a sad, sad little man. Some psychologist would suggest a few more hugs from Mommy could have prevented this.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 30 December 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[LynxFury]

This tread would be MUCH better without the deliberate flaming.

[Koniving]

Making ECM weigh more or take more slots is one way to balance it. Actually one of the better methods I've heard thus far.

My own thought however -- not taking that into consideration -- was to take ECM as it is and change the mechs it is available to.

The current commando the ECM can be found on sports 3 missile hardpoints, and now almost never carries a laser. Why would it need one? My own personal design carries one streak and 2 SRM-2's. Most just carry 3 streaks.

When ECM was just starting, my commando was the 1-B. I love it to be honest. 3 energy weapons, 1 missile launcher with only two holes. In combat it requires skill and tenacity. People hate the 1-B. It's the least popular of all the commandos.

...It would have been the perfect candidate for ECM.

Why? It would 1) not have many missiles on itself, allowing it to carry ECM at any weight, 2) it would make the least common variant suddenly much more appealing, and 3) discourage the "boating" issue since the commando 1-b cannot, in fact, boat streaks, SRMs, or LRMs.

O.o;

The only Atlas that can carry ECM is the one that can sport 3 missile launchers.

...There seems to be a pattern forming here.

DDC Atlas was already incredibly popular because of its anti-light 3-streak model, or its hard hitting 3 SRM-6 model. Add ECM -- Why would you EVER waste your time with another variant? The answer? You won't.

The Raven 3-L, another ECM totting mech variant sports two missile launchers. Why choose another variant when both of those missiles are streaks?

Now the AC-20 Raven (4x? Or 2x? Haven't used them in so long I can't remember -- because they have nothing going for them now) could've really benefited from ECM camouflage. The ability to move marginally undetected until it is almost within detection range to deliver that deadly payload. Or how about the less popular gimp-arm Raven with the rather obvious shield/ECM Radar-like appendage that says "I'm the least popular Raven and have nothing going for me, GIMME ECM so people will buy me!"

Much better candidates. Does it happen? No.

...In the line up, the new popular 3-L got the ECM. Of course it did. It has the missile hard-points. No one uses any other unless it's a trial or to unlock stuff in the lab.

*Ben Stein* "Yay..." Let's balance the game by forcing people use the 'lesser' variants to unlock the potential of their superior ones. That sounds like a much better idea than balancing the lesser variants with something that puts them on par with the other variants of the same chassis! Genius! Pure genius!

(If you didn't notice I was being sarcastic.)

I'm flabbergasted that following this logic, the A-1 didn't get its own ECM. Somehow I guarantee it was on the table. Same with the Centurion with the 3 missile left shoulder. It would fit the pattern and it's already the most popular Centurion!

Now, don't get me wrong. Though the ECM is the very bane of my existence I do find that it is a fundamental part of the game. I've seen some really impressive strategies using it. Sometimes it can be a very fun game changer. However the mechs that currently sport ECM are already at the top of the food chain before and this makes them unrivaled. ECM should have been a benefit to the lower-end variants that are stuck in over-sized cardboard boxes, unloved and collecting dust in someone's mechbay closet waiting to be sold off... except even the mechlab doesn't want to buy them back!

Poor unpopular variants.

...Forever alone.

Edited by Koniving, 30 December 2012 - 01:08 PM.

[MaxllmuS]

ICEFANG13, on 30 December 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Super constructive powers activate!

I hate treads like this, nothing change till 7th jan people must understand it.

Why so much cry about ECM and RNR, dev cant do nothing till next year 7th jan. They people like us, and want their holydays with family,GF or just with Sasha Grey etc. After 7th jan we get patch that fix ecm end rnr that the point cry now?
You think dev read forum and make patch 31st in 00.00 for you can play ?

Edited by MaxllmuS, 30 December 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

I would like them to know when they return, ECM needs some attention.

[aelfkins]

StalaggtIKE, on 30 December 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

ECM=teamwork is a fallacy. It's called survival. At the start of match, most look for mech carrying ECM and walk close to him, until they run into the bulk of the enemies. They're simply using ECM as safe passage from LRM. Is that teamwork?

That is an example of team work. That is team work on a very basic level.

StalaggtIKE, on 30 December 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Technically I could run my RVN-3L to middle of map, hide and shutdown, go afk and still provide benefits for my team. ECM still scrambles enemy's signals even when shutdown. Is that teamwork?

Your ECM doesn't work when you are shut down(manually or from over heat). It stays off till your mech finishes its restart.
An overheated ECM mech is still targetable by SSRMs and LRMs.

[Accursed Richards]

HMSIronDuke, on 30 December 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Originally, it´s a excellent solution for stopping the "LRM *** show" but now has disbalanced the game very seriously.

MaxllmuS, on 30 December 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I hate treads like this, nothing change till 7th jan people must understand it.

Why so much cry about ECM and RNR, dev cant do nothing till next year 7th jan. They people like us, and want their holydays with family,GF or just with Sasha Grey etc. After 7th jan we get patch that fix ecm end rnr that the point cry now?
You think dev read forum and make patch 31st in 00.00 for you can play ?

Crying about crying isn't much of an improvement over just crying, you know.

I certainly don't miss the LRM "sky turns orange, die before you can see the other side" games, and I understand wanting to make something available that could stop it. I think ECM went way too far in that direction, though, becoming the most stupidly good no-brainer module choice in the game, by quite a big margin.

Compare it to NARC or Beagle. Have they changed the game to the same extent for the same or more tonnage? I feel confident most people would say "no". That indicates something's gone wrong somewhere.

[DocBach]

We were promised a deep Information Warfare pillar where we'd have several different pieces of equipment that all provided an edge over our opponents and the other equipment, working against each other. What we got was ECM, ECM, and ECM, partially because of the fact that it was implemented with way more features then it ever had in any iteration of Battletech or MechWarrior, partially because implementation of other pieces of Information Warfare is so lackluster; ECM needs to be toned down and other components like Beagle and Narc need to be toned up.

ECM should not provide stealth 'Mech ability to an entire team
(Total Warfare, pg 134): "The ECM does not affect other scanning or targeting devices such as TAG and targeting computers"

ECM should not make missile locks impossible:
(Total Warfare, pg 134): "ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may still be fired as normal missiles through ECM." and "Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within the bubble. The Narc launcher itself is not affected by ECM."

The previous rules state that missile attacks occur as normal, just not augmented with guidance from their advanced systems. Under no rulesets does it say that standard Guardian ECM negates the effect of Streak missile systems.

In disrupt mode ECM should have the following abilities:
-Disrupt Beagle's ability to detect shut down 'Mechs (Total Warfare, pg 134)
"Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM's area of effect. The probing unit would notice it is being jammed, however"

-Negate the tight groupings of Artemis-enhanced missiles (Total Warfare, pg 134)
"ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits Table Bonus"


-Negate the tight groupings of Narc-enhanced missiles, as well as prevent indirect fire on a Narc'd 'Mech without LOS (more on this later)
(Total Warfare, pg 134): "Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within the bubble. The Narc launcher itself is not affected by ECM."

-Prevent spotters in the ECM bubble, or on the other side of, with line of sight passing through a bubble from transmitting target data to team mates outside the bubble
(Total Warfare, Pg 134) "ECM has the effect of cutting off any C3 equipped unit from its network." Even though we don't officially have C3 installed on our 'Mechs, the way that our units communicate target data is what the C3 network does effectively. Being inside the ECM bubble should disrupt your ability to send data back to the rest of your team.

-Make target ID slower to acquire, but not block locks or targeting completely
(Maximum Tech, pg 54) "Though ECM systems can prevent a sensor probe from identifying a unit, they produce powerful distinctive electronic signatures." So sensors know something is out there, it just can't identify it or provide target information like the paper doll.

-Generate ghost targets in a seperate mode from disrupt/counter - bring up the command map with B in ghost target mode and plot a false radar signal that shows up like a target shrouded by ECM - target-able by R, but no target data available
(Tactical Operations, pg 100): "The ECM suite can be tuned to generate "ghost targets" that may affect the ability of enemy units to properly target friendly units. The ECM loses its normal function when used this way."

-Run counter ECM mode
(Tactical Operations, pg 99): "An ECM suite can be tuned to act as electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM) in order to negate enemy ECM systems."


Beagle should:

-Provide 360 degree scanning and targeting within a 150 meter bubble, including 'Mechs outside of line of sight such as behind buildings or terrain

(Total Warfare, pg 129): "An active probe can detect any hidden 'Mech if the concealed unit lies within the probe's range." Like ECM, Beagle projects a scanning bubble of 5 hexes around it, equating to 150m of range

-Detect shutdown 'Mechs outside of ECM bubbles
(Total Warfare, pg 129): "An active probe can detect any hidden 'Mech if the concealed unit lies within the probe's range."

-Negate ECM's target acquisition slowdown while outside the bubble

-Identify ECM Ghost targets as being false targets
-Identify users the boundaries of the ECM bubble if they encounter ECM within Beagle's 150m scan bubble
(Total Warfare, pg 134)
"Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM's area of effect. The probing unit would notice it is being jammed, however"

The Narc beacon was rendered completely worthless when PGI failed to include its most important perk (Total Warfare, pg 139) which states:

"Once a Narc pod is attached to a target, all Narc-equipped missiles may be fired indirectly at a target without a spotter"

By this writing, we should be able to maintain locks on targets affected by Narc even if they go behind terrain and cut off line of sight, thus Narc should:

-Tighten LRM/SRM grouping on targets in line of sight
-Allow targets marked by Narc to remain targeted even when LOS is lost so LRM attacks can continue indirectly without spotters
-Last for either an extended duration than current or until the location the Narc hit is destroyed

A couple simple changes would make all of the advanced EW equipment viable, while remaining faithful to the source material without being game breaking or overpowering. ECM would still be useful to take, especially for protection against LRM spotters, as it would prevent them from sending target data to their LRM boats, protect you from Narc which would actually be a useful item if it kept enemies lit up on radar for indirect fire without a spotter like the rules say it does, and give Beagle expanded roles like countering ECM outside of the bubble (inspired by detection rules from MaxTech and Tactical Operations), and serving as a warning system that you are inside the bubble propper, which would be useful for spotters trying to Narc targets or transmit data.

The above changes would make information warfare have counters to each other, beyond just ECM, ECM, ECM. It would make it everything a useful addition to a team, but not an absolute necessity or gamebreaker.

[Nawiedzony]

This way it works in MW4, and i think its good example than ecm and bap have their own place ...
ECM expand lock time and BAP make lock shorter, if target have ECM and missleboat have BAP lock time is normal.
Im not BT fan, i like to have online multiplayer balanced and with sense, now im not play from two weeks or so and i not see reason to change that ....

Btw i like to see possibiity to turn rdr on/off, and radar working on electronic signature not this what mechwarrior can see, its dumb ....

Edited by Nawiedzony, 30 December 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[keith]

ecm is just in bad balance. we are in beta. i hope they kinda think of things like ecm, bap, narc and tag in mmo sesne. it needs to be rock, paper sisccor. ecm paper is tag. it was buffed with range, it did help. it was just not enough. tag needs to be on a target and light them up for more then the half sec it hits them. yes in real world sesne it is a laser beam los wep, but game balance it does not help. either bap needs to some how see through ecm bubble, or tag needs some more love. my opinion

[StalaggtIKE]

aelfkins, on 30 December 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

That is an example of team work. That is team work on a very basic level.

You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am. On the surface it looks like teamwork, but at the core it's simply survival instincts. Again I say if all chassis had ECM, they wouldn't give a flip about staying with the team. Why everyone does not use the same 4 chassis? Probably mostly because boredom, the desire to unlock pilot tree or a newb (a new person; not a 'noob').

Quote

Your ECM doesn't work when you are shut down(manually or from over heat). It stays off till your mech finishes its restart.
An overheated ECM mech is still targetable by SSRMs and LRMs.

That is not the case, unless they dropped a server side update during the holidays that fixed it.

[PiemasterXL]

Edit: Ok read it now.

Your concerns are valid.

Edited by PiemasterXL, 30 December 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[HiplyRustic]

If the devs really want the thing acting like Null Shield+Angel Shield on steroids then apply all the Null Shield slotting reqs in addition. The extra heat, no targeting gear, 7 crit slots, one crit to any of those slots disables the whole system...plus the ecm slot/weight. Even then, Null Sig makes a mech harder to track...not impossible to track.

Let's at least try and remember that location computations and targeting locks are not simply radar, they are a combination of a mech's available information gathering systems feeding data into a targeting computer...so unless that ecm is blocking/scrambling everything...heat, the radar signature of 70 tons of rolling metal, electronic emissions, audio...everything...that system's going to get a lock eventually.

It's actually a bad idea since the Null Shield is lostech and didn't function as an umbrella anyway...but if we have to have ecm functioning this way at least provide it some disincentive.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 30 December 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

ltwally, on 30 December 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

I got tired of typing, and quit halfway through C3.

As you can see, the cannon ECM suite does nothing about basic sensors/comms or LRM / S-SRM locks.

Ok, I'll bite if for no other reason than to feed the trolls.

What is the C3 system? It is a Command, Control, and Communication device which, amazingly, takes care of such things as communication between mechs, targeting, and sensor information. As ECM disrupts this within its 180 meters, it is not surprising you cannot get this information from the bubble effect mentioned in the BMR. Therefore, I would argue you are incorrect in your assumption that "the cannon ECM suite does nothing about basic sensors/comms or LRM / S-SRM locks", as I would hope you can see.

It is interesting that all mechs have this already as it didn't come around until 3050ish if I remember correctly. However, it is there and as such, the ECM implementation makes sense given what you found in the canon.

Just my two C-Bills to the conversation.

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 30 December 2012 - 02:55 PM.

[MrWhite]

"Ecm Drove Me To Hawken"

Good, stay there

[Dahmon13]

Posted Today, 12:32 PM
This is coming from a hardcore casual pov. I play MWO pretty often, only PUGs though. I am happy as long as I can walk and shoot a big tin can. Easily pleased you might say. I play a lot of games in general and I am not 13 for a long time.

With that in mind...

About the repair bills - I don't mind either way, but I don't play assault. If in fact you could lose c-bills even on wins then bringing back the costs seems silly. I mean it's perfectly fine for people who play MWO only MWO and always MWO, but a pain in the *** for everyone else. The only thing that this changed is that now every mech is fully loaded/repaired on every match and there are less afkers and suiciders. Horrible, I know...

Matchmaking - Can't say it's working bad right now, but maybe it's different for PUGs. There are pretty one sided games once in a while, but that might be due to thousands of reasons.

ECM - Holy -ing ****. If you can't see it's broken you have to be running it. It gives you the kingmaker position. You, the ECM guy, will decide who wins. And basically, the team without ECM loses. It's that simple. The only good thing it did is the fact that I'm just giving up MWO until it is somehow fixed. More times for other good games.

But really, what were they smoking? ECM is currently the only equipment every mech would have if it would be available to all. If you can't see it as broken then I don't know what is

this dosent all aply to me but close enough that i just had to repost it with a BIG AGREE

[ICEFANG13]

That's right, everyone should go to Hawken! That makes this game much better.

How do I keep dropping against the same 8 people?

[Fabian Wrede]

Biggest problem is that PGI have release avery poten tool in ECM with out the porober counters to it exept more ECM.

19/20 pug team lacking ECM looses, that in it self makes ECM way to powerfull for its current state. low weight and small size.

[Willie Sauerland]

ICEFANG13, on 30 December 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

That's right, everyone should go to Hawken! That makes this game much better.

How do I keep dropping against the same 8 people?

If you are winning, why do you care?