1017 replies to this topic

[Deadmeat99]

So how many pub battles have to be played where one side has ECM, the other doesn't, and the side with ECM wins, before it's acknowledged that ECM is vastly overpowered? I've been living with ECM lately, trying to build and play in spite of it. Tonight was just the last straw. When EVERY SINGLE game where I'm on a team that doesn't have ECM, and we get slaughtered (maybe 1 or 2 kills for), it's clear that something is wrong with this game mechanic. When EVERY SINGLE game where I'm on a team the does have ECM, and we slaughter the team that doesn't, it's clear that something is wrong with this game mechanic. I know I'm not the only one who sees this happening regularly.

Edited by Deadmeat99, 02 January 2013 - 09:05 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

I also see this happening. ECM-less teams are very likely to be destroyed by a competent ECM team. Perhaps its the size of mechs we play?

[Araara]

Kousagi, on 02 January 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

This is where you miss understand a bit. Most people on the team could poke out to about 900-1000k-ish with the sensor mod, then with BAP made it to 1.2k, Scouts were important, but when I could see you from my spawn, walking out of your spawn, theres not much hiding behind cover to be had. All it took was for you to get in LOS for .1 sec's for me to know where you are. Most maps also only have so many ways to go, so even if you did some how manage to keep cover for your whole movement in to a flank, if we spot only 4 mechs going left, well we got center covered too, that means the other 4 are going right. Though ANY mech could fill that scout role due to the range of sensors.

Now With ECM, you need Light mechs to scout cause its harder to spot people. Though ya can still thermal view them coming out of spawn on a lot of maps, so its a slightly moot point. Though ya still need fast scouts at times, cause just not any mech can run around looking for the other team. Ya need something that can stay hidden and run like hell when/If they get noticed.

Plus only reason light mech wolfpack is deadly right now is cause lag shield. They don't need streaks for it, but streaks just mean they can destroy other lights.

And that's why I mentionned the rest of the quote. Yes, having initial movements were a great advantage with the jump jets (which got nerfed). However, when into brawling phase and when the brawlers were busy brawling per se, you had to have light mechs still scouting for flanking maneuvers or those who went to cap. You wouldn't have much time to jump jet really high to scout everyone + relay that information in the middle of battle. Not to mention that highly mobile scouting unit could counterflank and flank too.

I'm not saying you couldn't scout with no lights, but they were still necessary (read : very useful) in pre-ecm. ECM just changed the scouting game. Yes, scouts are still important and this current implementation but you can't just dismiss the pre-ecm era of scouting.

As for the light mech wolf pack, it was a hypothetical situation with no ssrms. Don't take the quote quite literally as I was more or less making humor out of something that annoyed all of us

edit : censored word =|

Edited by Araara, 02 January 2013 - 09:46 PM.

[ExAstris]

Abivard, on 02 January 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

The question was asked,;

If there were no streaks or LRM weapons, would you equip ECM?

Yes. On every mech.

Maybe if I ran more 8man premades I would not, because there your enemy is generally pretty well coordinated and the pilots are good at staying on the right target regardless of what info their mech/HUD is giving them.

But for PUGs, every mech I own would still drop with ECM. You hide your position from enemies until your either spotted visually or within 190m. The few PUGs that do call targets are nullified because at any given time only a couple of enemy mechs will be in any players range, so knowing they need to kill Delta doesn't help them any when only one or two can even target that mech.

Further, you only have to get 190m away from someone to completely lose them, so it becomes way easier to disengage whenever you have the speed advantage. As soon as someone loses lock on you, they are pretty darn likely to just give up and shoot at someone else, causing disorganization among your foes and causing them to spread their damage around.

And so long as enemy mechs are not sharing information, it is far less likely that enemies will respond to the microsecond blip they get from an ECM mech crossing the 10m detect-and-transmit magic zone than from the constant target data aquired normally.


So in conclusion, it may not be something I would use on every mech in premades. (though it would still make target calling harder, and would slow down the transfer of advanced target information making it harder for enemies to know what part of your allied mechs to shoot first, and thus would still get used on a fair number of mechs, especially brawlers and mechs of the line)

But for PUGs, if every mech could equip ECM, then every much should equip ECM. Even if there were no LRMs and no streaks, they should all still have it. Its just that useful.

[LynxFury]

I would as well, even without missiles in the game.

The inability of my foe, even if medium ranges, with medium and large lasers to know my weak points, such as a nearly blown out torso, make ECM the best way to distribute damage in the game--way better than FF or adding tons more armor to my mechs--and all for so little sacrifice of crits and tonnage.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

Hello ladies and gentlemen,

I think a big part of this argument is misdirected. Of course there will be people that say they do not feel much impact on their gameplay. I agree that you can play around ECM too.

The question you should ask is not if ECM is overpowered or not. You should not say its unbeatable either.

The impact it has on the game is undeniable though.

Lets take a look at 8v8 premade drops during prime time Europe for example. Yesterday we had 6 drops. Out of 6 drops there was One drop with an enemy team not fielding 2+ Raven 3L (They had 7 Atlas D-DC and 1 Stalker). Out of the Assaults I saw on enemy teams more then 50% where Atlas D-DC. The lights I saw played against us were 10 Raven 3L and 1 ECM Commando.

The assaults we brought were pretty much exclusivly Atlas D-DC and the lights we brought were Raven 3Ls. Why is that? Because if you bring anything else then a streak-carrying Raven 3L for scouting you might as well drop 1 person short.

If you do NOT bring at least 2 ECM carrying assaults for your group the enemy scouts will be near to untouchable once your scouts are somewhere else/dead.

Believe me. We tried to do it differently. Its just too much effort to overcome the advantages ECM provides.

Taking PuGs as a data sample to judge if a system is unbalanced is not a good idea because a lot of people (including me) use PuGs to level the less powerfull variants of a certain Mech or to try out configs, or to farm cash in trial mechs.

If your team has no ECM and the other team has 2 disconnects and 1 ECM guy you can probably still win. Its not a very valid sample for judging ECMs power though.

The omnipresence of ECM in 8vs8 premade battles is something that should make you raise your brows. The absence of LRMs in 8vs8 premade drops is what should ring alarm bells.

And just try the combo of 3 ECM Ravens (3L) with a streakboat catapult in a PuG.

The netcode making direct fire weaponry against fast targets useless is a problem. ECM taking out the only playable solution (lock on weaponry) with an AoE effect has only made that much more apparent and much worse.

Edited by ClaymoreReIIik, 03 January 2013 - 07:32 AM.

[Marcus Tanner]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 03 January 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

The question you should ask is not if ECM is overpowered or not. You should not say its unbeatable either.

You're right. Style matters a great deal.

---

ECM is not unbeatable.

Games that include ECM can be fun and challenging.

ECM is by far the most effective way to spend 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots, and that's a problem.

[DeaconW]

Pan Damonium, on 02 January 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

*LRMs continue to be the weapon I do the most damage with, and I'm a newb...so clearly there are no problems there.

Stone Wall, on 02 January 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

ECM is fine. I love that this isn't MissleWarrior Online anymore.

You two need to play the same game or coordinate your posts better...

[DeaconW]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 03 January 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

The assaults we brought were pretty much exclusivly Atlas D-DC and the lights we brought were Raven 3Ls. Why is that? Because if you bring anything else then a streak-carrying Raven 3L for scouting you might as well drop 1 person short.

Exactly.

Quote

Taking PuGs as a data sample to judge if a system is unbalanced is not a good idea because a lot of people (including me) use PuGs to level the less powerfull variants of a certain Mech or to try out configs, or to farm cash in trial mechs.

Exactly again!

Quote

If your team has no ECM and the other team has 2 disconnects and 1 ECM guy you can probably still win. Its not a very valid sample for judging ECMs power though.

You are on fire!

Quote

The omnipresence of ECM in 8vs8 premade battles is something that should make you raise your brows. The absence of LRMs in 8vs8 premade drops is what should ring alarm bells.

Totally agree.

ThanX for posting so succinctly what some apparently cannot comprehend or purposely ignore...

[EliteOne]

Here's my idea to fix ECM

Make it act as a weapon that you activate, and have the effects last 60, 120, or 180 seconds with a cooldown thats 30-90 secodns longer than the effect, no matter what mode you're in.

So every 120 seconds for example, you can cloak nearby friendlies, but can't do it again for another minute. Same thing for jamming enemy ecm.

[Corvus Antaka]

Inner city fights with ECM = nightmare. no radar at all.

personally the lack of radar, contacts, the fact that the only mechs I now drive are direct fire or ECM and the uselessness of LRMS as indirect fire weapons due to radar sucking so much and missiles in general due to elimination of lock on ability rather than doubling times etc are the biggest issues.

ECM has really buffed pre-mades vs pugs too. pugging is a nightmare these days, it was just getting good after LRM fix & pre-ECM too. But without radar due to ECM pugging is just nightmarish half the time due to enemy ECM and the loss of radar.

imho radar is a significant part of mech, and I really dislike the direction it is currently taking in the game and hope PGI reconsiders & re-evaluates based on previous games & btech that radar is important and enhances the game.

[ICEFANG13]

I doubt PGI will do anything to ECM, despite all the evidence that it may need some working, they avoided all the ECM questions in ask the devs 29, and they only said "working as intended" (six days after release) to us (er I mean through PC gamer).

We should just all accept that and start playing other, more fun, games. I miss MWO too, but its not like they have at least explained why they think its just right, that's not hard to do.

[StalaggtIKE]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 03 January 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Inner city fights with ECM = nightmare. no radar at all.

personally the lack of radar, contacts, the fact that the only mechs I now drive are direct fire or ECM and the uselessness of LRMS as indirect fire weapons due to radar sucking so much and missiles in general due to elimination of lock on ability rather than doubling times etc are the biggest issues.

ECM has really buffed pre-mades vs pugs too. pugging is a nightmare these days, it was just getting good after LRM fix & pre-ECM too. But without radar due to ECM pugging is just nightmarish half the time due to enemy ECM and the loss of radar.

imho radar is a significant part of mech, and I really dislike the direction it is currently taking in the game and hope PGI reconsiders & re-evaluates based on previous games & btech that radar is important and enhances the game.

I could live with the complete neutering of LRM and SSRM. However the lack of radar, expecially when ECM is only present on one team, ruins the game. Based on the fact the game goes by the name of MechWarrior, one would think radar would be a big part of it. Apparently in the year 3050 it takes nothing to to hide several 20+ ton robots in plain sight.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 03 January 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[Flapdrol]

most annoying about ecm is you cant see who's friendly anymore

second most annoying thing is it determines who gets to use streaks (the best weapon ingame still, great dps/ton, great damage/heat, not affected by the lagshield).

just having friendlies always show and nerfing streaks would go a long way in improving balance, right now the 3L just dominates light v light and can take down most mediums as well. nerfing streaks and just slowing locks instead of hardcountering would make the other lights viable agian.

[Pan Damonium]

DeaconW, on 03 January 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

You two need to play the same game or coordinate your posts better...

Well, if what Stone Wall says is true, I just can't imagine how things must have been with LRMs before ECM.

From the outlandish realm of suggestions, I guess I might propose the idea of breaking down ECM into two pieces of gear as, you know, a compromise?

The basic ECM which could stick to canon and leave out it's effect on missle lock etc. This could be mounted on the same mechs it is available to currently or somesuch.

The ECM you have to pay through the wang for (no, not THAT wang): There could be a module added which could be earned with a whole lot of GXP and then equipped at huge expense to a mech which is already loaded out with the basic version. This could knock out the ability for missiles to lock properly. It could also screw with the sensor data like it does now, confusing the radar, and *gasp* making people rely on what they can see through the cockpit's huge glass windshield.

I imagine someone has made this suggestion or one like it, since to me it seems a natural way to get closer to appeasing those who want it nerfed and those who like it's capabilities in the game as they are now.

In the end, I guess ECM just doesn't bother me that much. I will continue to make targets of the mechs equipped with it and use mah big lasers to attack them and/or lure them into unsavory conditions involving the heavier elements of my team.

Still, if it gets a huge nerf I guess I won't care much either, though I would certainly notice it's absence in that the game would get easier (LRM/SSRM boats or not).

Edited by Pan Damonium, 03 January 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[DeaconW]

ICEFANG13, on 03 January 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

I doubt PGI will do anything to ECM, despite all the evidence that it may need some working, they avoided all the ECM questions in ask the devs 29, and they only said "working as intended" (six days after release) to us (er I mean through PC gamer).

We should just all accept that and start playing other, more fun, games. I miss MWO too, but its not like they have at least explained why they think its just right, that's not hard to do.

I actually started playing through a single player campaign in MW4...having fun.

[Dikaiosyne26]

This maybe slightly off-topic, but this whole discussion has reminded me of another instance in gaming, the eventual banning of Jace the Mind Scupltor and Stoneforge Mystic in Magic: The Gathering Standard about 2 years ago.

Now, I really hope that the dev team A. reads this, B. wants to learn from other games and their experiences. Here is the link to the explaination of the bannings: http://www.wizards.c...ily/feature/148

The whole article is very interesting, especially if you have a reasonable knowledge of that game, but here is the part that really stands out to me (Thank you Aaron Forsythe):

"I have seen many arguments flying around the Internet that nothing needs to be banned, as the format is very interactive and skill-testing right now. I suppose I agree with those descriptions of the format—the Top 16 in Singapore was loaded with talented names, and the same core group of guys keeps making the Top 8s of StarCity's events. As for interactivity, when you lose to Jace / Stoneforge decks, you still feel like you're playing Magic: you cast your creatures, attack and block, yet, if your opponent plays well enough, eventually fall under an avalanche of card advantage and efficient tutoring."

But then the formal complaints began pouring in, followed by a drop in attendance ... that we can't ignore. If people don't want to play the game, we need to fix it.

There exists a crowd of competitive players who pursue perfection, who have no personal attachment to any certain cards or decks save those that reward them for their great skill and dedication. I very much appreciate that mindset; in fact, much of our organized play encourages it. But there exists a larger crowd for whom decks and cards are extensions of themselves, who revel in diverse metagames wherein they can show off their creativity. They want to be able to play decks that suit their whims and personalities without feeling like they are wasting their time; they want Magic to afford them the opportunities to individualize while still taking it seriously. Standard has lost that in recent months, and we aim to bring it back.

End Quote:

That sounds very familiar and I hope that the dev team can fix this problem in weeks and not months.

[Cest7]

ECM needs IFF.

I shouldn't lose sight of my entire team on radar if I walk behind a building and an ally has ECM.

Edited by Cest7, 03 January 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

Dikaiosyne26, on 03 January 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Snip

As a player who once really enjoyed magic (I stopped, my old time spiral deck was no longer effective), I can really relate to this. Ironically, Stoneforge Jace was used so much, that there was another reason to ban it.

I personally feel that way, I like to play my decks, and my mechs, as something I love and put a lot of thought into, a part of me, Raven-3Ls are not like me at all, and I hate them, but to be competitive, I'd have to use one.

It would be interesting to see what PGI says about that, excellent first post!

[Stoindrae]

ECM Feedback? I got an EMC Feedback ...

I like this game.. I really do ..

But .. it has become a simple game of "He who hath the most ECM shall be the winner" (Raven/Commando builds)... barely a need to even start the round.. just count em up and award the moolah.

Oh.. no no .. you say .. it CAN be countered!! Yes.. It can .. but .. by a team of ECM protected PPC/Gauss snipers (Cicada/D-DC builds)

uh huh...

Dropped in a few pug rounds solo... 1) vs 6 Ravens.. 5 of em 3L... /sigh ... 2) 3 D-DC's and 2 3L's

I could go on .. but you all know what is going on .. you HAVE to run ECM... or Sniper builds... or expect to be food for those that do.

I want to run more types of mechs ... I want more tactics than "hold back and snipe until one side's ECM ravens get to base cap". I want MORE THAN FOUR FOOKIN MAPS!!!

In the immortal words of JarJar Binks:

"My give up!"

/throws_in_towel


ECM Change suggestions:
* Split back to 3 items...
* make em weigh 3-5 tons each
* eliminate SSRMs from being loaded on anything that runs ECM

There .. ECM Fixed.

Edited by Stoindrae, 03 January 2013 - 07:01 PM.