1017 replies to this topic

[Windsaw]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 07 January 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

I think the only reason we don't see MORE of ECM is because people are exercising voluntary restraint. They'd rather have fun running a variety of mechs and equipment than a single variant of 4 chassis with the same basic loadout.

I wouldn't call that voluntary restraint. But I agree: I stopped running around with my ECM-Commando because I was sick of using that same build over and over again. And that predates ECM: This was, after all, the only Commando with three streaks which was essential for survival against other lights who carried streaks.
Right now I don't care anymore if I die or not. Dying beats boredom.

[Big Bad Wulf]

I agree with Tolkien, this has to be done on PUG drops (uncontrolled) to see if the theory is true. For my part it is my belief that ECM is a tool that takes skill to employ properly and coordination when used in a tactical setting. Unlike the case of LRM's prior to damage reduction whose usage does not take skill to use with deadly effect.

Most 8 man groups I have encountered have either adopted to work with ECM or have learned how to counter it.

Tolkien gathers his stats, I on the other hand would observe how both teams are deployed and its out come. This would provide a more substance to the findimgs.

For this I would be running my Raven 2x as not to skew Tolkien's findings

Lights on the hands on a good pilot (like Tolkien) is deadly. But they are just light mechs against organized opposition they die just as easily.

[ICEFANG13]

I personally will be boycotting the game after Tuesday if something isn't done or said very directly about ECM. I hope that some of you will join me and maybe we can actually do something.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Jesus box is still OP. BAP is still trash. I'll hold back my surprise.

[DeaconW]

Sudden Reversal, on 06 January 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

I do own mechs with ECM but I very rarely play them, it makes me feel dirty and I believe is doing this game a disservice.

I agree with you about ECM but I have come to an opposite conclusion wrt action...we must exploit it to the max to **** off enough people so PGI pays attention to how broken it is.

Quote

You can thank people with morals and a good sense of proportion for having any sort of diversity in drops.

That sounds nice but the cynic in me says that this is due to the combination of the cost of ECM mechs, players not understanding ECM, and general player ignorance/stupidity/noobness about the game...

Quote

As it currently stands with ECM and game balance, those that prefer the path of least resistance take it and play ezymode.

I despise it but I will play it this way until PGI fixes it.

[ICEFANG13]

People are and have been doing that. 8 mans are ECM fests, so why don't they fix it?

Working as intended? Unless the intention is to break the game or make it suck, I don't think so.

[NA]

First, I play mainly PUG matches so I have not seen the effect ECM has had on 8 man matches. In my games the team with the most ECM usually, but not always wins. Usually the worst drops are when my team has no ECM and the other team does + LRM boats, then it's just death from above. At present most matches are 1-2 ECM on each team (usually Ravens or Commandos). Occasionally I'll see 3-4 ECM on a team, which usually means a split between Atlas's and Lights.

I presently favor the Raven ECM mech and have been saving up for the Atlas ECM mech as well (and also been thinking about a commando). I will use the non-ECM Ravens, but only so I can get my elite and master skills. As with most others I feel like I am seriously hurting my team when I do so as I'm costing them ECM and/or a heavier mech that can do more damage. I do have a Catapult that I have played some, but usually it seems most PUG matches need an ECM mech.

When I run my ECM mech if I am the only one (or there is two) I'm most likely staying with the heavies so I can hide them. If we are outnumbered in ECM usually I'll find myself countered and a target of LRM fire (which is why I also carry AMS). When there are more ECM mechs I'm usually in harrassment/assisting LRM targeting while trying not to get blown away. I have finished many games as the last one standing and won a few (and come close to winning a few) by just being up against heavies at the end (though most decent heavy pilots have learned how to kill a light).

I can say for 1.5 tons and two crits of space ECM is one very powerful system and has made pretty much any light that doesn't carry it a much worse selection choice. I won't say useless, but you are effectively just a fast weapons platform that can't scout anymore and can be rendered much less effective by an ECM mech.

[Skyscream Sapphire]

ICEFANG13, on 07 January 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

I personally will be boycotting the game after Tuesday if something isn't done or said very directly about ECM. I hope that some of you will join me and maybe we can actually do something.

I like this idea and will join you in participating, but...

DeaconW, on 07 January 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

I agree with you about ECM but I have come to an opposite conclusion wrt action...we must exploit it to the max to **** off enough people so PGI pays attention to how broken it is.

...my protest will likely take this form. I'm just going to run the Craven and then let everyone know in chat that my mech is "working as intended" according to the devs, My money would be that on Tuesday we get some comment from the devs like "well, we thought about changing ECM but our analytics show that only xx% of people are using it, which we don't think is too high." I will aim to fix that.

Edited by Skyscream Sapphire, 07 January 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 07 January 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

..my protest will likely take this form. I'm just going to run the Craven and then let everyone know in chat that my mech is "working as intended" according to the devs, My money would be that on Tuesday we get some comment from the devs like "well, we thought about changing ECM but our analytics show that only xx% of people are using it, which we don't think is too high." I will aim to fix that.

HA! I did a little of this over the weekend. I ran my CDA-3M, the only fair ECM mech IMO, to the demise of many.

[Loonix]

ICEFANG13, on 07 January 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

I personally will be boycotting the game after Tuesday if something isn't done or said very directly about ECM. I hope that some of you will join me and maybe we can actually do something.

I personally wouldn't go as far as a boycott, generally speaking I continue to enjoy the game, and I'm unconvinced a boycott is the right way to go. Having said that, for the first time in a long time, I can't be bothered to play and I suspect if things persist as they are I'll just get completely bored with the game. I will log on for the patch, but I don't care about the spider, so assuming everything else more or less stays the same I doubt I'll play anyway.

Same builds every game, same tactics every game... meh. As it is, from recent matches I suspect the player numbers are down anyway. I've only soldiered on recently to grind my Stalkers through basic and that's done now.

I can't say I condone trolling everyone in ECM Ravens either (although the devil in me thinks it would be hilarious), that would most likely do as much harm to the community as good.

I'm interested to see how the dev's respond, I think ECM is the first thing they've gotten completely wrong.

[warp103]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 07 January 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I like this idea and will join you in participating, but...


...my protest will likely take this form. I'm just going to run the Craven and then let everyone know in chat that my mech is "working as intended" according to the devs, My money would be that on Tuesday we get some comment from the devs like "well, we thought about changing ECM but our analytics show that only xx% of people are using it, which we don't think is too high." I will aim to fix that.

Skyscream Sapphire, on 07 January 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I like this idea and will join you in participating, but...


...my protest will likely take this form. I'm just going to run the Craven and then let everyone know in chat that my mech is "working as intended" according to the devs, My money would be that on Tuesday we get some comment from the devs like "well, we thought about changing ECM but our analytics show that only xx% of people are using it, which we don't think is too high." I will aim to fix that.

I will be boycotting after the next patch if no info from Dev team. I have also setup my son to exploit ECM in his trollmano 2d.

[Gremlich Johns]

I will be boycotting as well, since the other option, to play in an ECM mech and be a real douche with it, is not one I have as I do not "own" any ECM capable mechs. I applaud the two different ways to express dissatisfaction with ECM.

[DeaconW]

NA, on 07 January 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Usually the worst drops are when my team has no ECM and the other team does + LRM boats, then it's just death from above. At present most matches are 1-2 ECM on each team (usually Ravens or Commandos). Occasionally I'll see 3-4 ECM on a team, which usually means a split between Atlas's and Lights.

This matches my MWO experience as well.

[DeaconW]

Tolkien, on 07 January 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

and I think DeaconW had a good one too that was "My favourite Atlas is the commando 2D..." I'm paraphrasing there so maybe DeaconW will correct me.

Close enough...

[DeaconW]

StalaggtIKE, on 07 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

. You become a liability for your team when you choose a non-ECM light.

That is absolutely true.

[DeaconW]

Windsaw, on 07 January 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Right now I don't care anymore if I die or not.

And to me gaming is about suspension of disbelief...getting immersed. Shouldn't there be a sense of vulnerability and fear in a light mech? Shouldn't the sight of two atlases around the corner create some tension, not "meh"? I WANTthose experiences...but they are not to be had in MWO in its current state.

warp103, on 07 January 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

I will be boycotting after the next patch if no info from Dev team. I have also setup my son to exploit ECM in his trollmano 2d.

LOL. If you don't mind me asking, how old? It would be awesome to post his KDR if he was like four as evidence ECM is OP...

Edited by DeaconW, 07 January 2013 - 12:30 PM.

[ltwally]

I played MW:O over the weekend. All PUGs. Probably 4-5 hours worth. I wanted to see how things were. My impressions as follows:

1. Markedly less ECM activity that a couple weeks ago.

2. However, when present, ECM has more effect on the outcome than any single piece of equipment (regardless of weight).

3. Battlemech variety is somewhat different:

• There is the expected large number of Stalkers, which happens when any new mech is released.
  
• There also seem to be more non-ECM variants of chassis that do have an ECM version. The Raven, especially, seemed to be witnessing a surge in popularity. Given that, for the Raven, the only that has really changed is the addition of an ECM variant, I'm hypothesising that many pilots are focusing on getting their Mech skills up so they can hit Master level on the Raven 3L. Other ECM mechs are probably seeing similar, if less noticeable, activity.

4. Much less LRM activity, even when ECM is not present. Conclusion: ECM has largely killed off LRMs, and likewise the LRM <-> spotter relationship.

5.Much less S-SRM activity. Heavy increase in dumbfire SRM.

6. Battles are now mostly brawls, with a side of sniper fire thrown in for good measure.

7. Fewer light mechs in general. Focus seems to be on brawlers, now. This is likely somewhat because of Stalker-fever, but also likely a result of ECM changing the way the game is played.

8. Much less effort to capture. I attribute this to the change in rewards, and no rearm/repair fee; simply put, you earn more if you brawl it up than you do if you capture.



Between the effects of ECM and rewards/repair/rearm changes, it seems like the game has far less variety. It's now mostly brawls. There's little focus on LRM loadouts, with a direct result of fewer light mechs in a dedicated spotter / recon role. With the changes in finances, there is absolutely no reason to capture.

Absent any story-line or meta-game, this game now has about as much depth as CounterStrike or Quake.

It's interesting how a couple bad decisions (ECM, no incentive to capture instead of brawling it out) can so drastically alter the battlefield.

Tomorrow's patch will be telling. I'll keep my finger's crossed -- but I'm not holding my breath.

[Tolkien]

Latest update to the data collection follows


Methodology is still the same as usual: I drop into PUG games with 1 friend on skype. - He helps me count up ECM on the enemy team during the match. In the latest data sets I'm also making an effort to look for disconnects at the start of the game, and not counting the matches where a team loses a player right at the start.

(Out of curiosity I also tried to count TAG systems on each team to get a gage of how often one can count on having a friendly TAG system around without having to take it yourself - TAGs are harder to count though since I have to notice the beam or get the target info and notice it)
Our side always has 1 ECM since I piloted a trollmando 2D or Craven 3L for the duration of the tests.
13 Games
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:3, TAG 1, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:3, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: No
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 2, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Inconclusive(1ECM each)
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:0, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: No
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:0, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:3, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:0, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 1, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Inconclusive(2ECM each)
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:0, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 3, TAG 0, Them: ECM:3, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Inconclusive(3ECM each)
Us: ECM 3, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Next 5 games: Done 1 January 2013 All in a craven 3L
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Inconclusive(1ECM each)
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 1, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Inconclusive(1ECM each)
Us: ECM 4, TAG 1, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 3, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Next 11 games: Done 4 January 2013 all games in a craven 3L
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:?, TAG ?, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Inconclusive (Barely saw the other team)
Us: ECM 3, TAG 1, Them: ECM:3, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: No
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Inconclusive (2ECM each)
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes* (we actually had a friendly disconnect but managed to pull it out anyway)
Us: ECM 3, TAG 0, Them: ECM:0, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 1, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: No
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:3, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 1, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: No
6 January 2012: With DeaconW as wingman
Us: ECM 4, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:3, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 3, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 3, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
6 January 2012: With Alexei Karnov as wingman\
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: No
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Inconclusive (2 ECM each)
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 2?, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Inconclusive (2 ECM each)
7 January 2012: With Alexei Karnov as wingman
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:0, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 1, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Inconclusive (2 ECM each)
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Inconclusive (2 ECM each)
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:3, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:4, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2/3?, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: No?
Us: ECM 1, TAG 0, Them: ECM:0, TAG 1, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:0, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 3, TAG 0, Them: ECM:1, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes

Us: ECM 4, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: No
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Inconclusive (2 ECM each)
Us: ECM 2, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 3, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Inconclusive (2 ECM each)
Us: ECM 4, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 3, TAG 0, Them: ECM:2, TAG 0, Outcome: We Won Matched Expectation: Yes
Us: ECM 3, TAG 0, Them: ECM:4, TAG 2, Outcome: We Lost Matched Expectation: Yes

Tonights games had the added flavour of 2 games with disconnects and one with a missing UI. The only game tonight that I put down as a "No" might actually be inconclusive but I am erring on the side of caution here. The second "No" on the 7th had Garth on our team - regrettably our team was so distracted by having a superstar in the group that we got absolutely steamrolled.



The hypothesis is that the team with more ECM systems will tend to win.

Total Games: 54
Inconclusive Games: 13 - these are games where the number of ECM systems is equal on both teams.
Conclusive games: 41
The conclusive games break down as follows:
Matching expectations: 33
Contradicted expectations: 8
Using the formula given on page 10 of this document: http://classes.soe.u...nter03/h5m3.pdf
I arrive at
Sigma=0.0619 which is 2.54 matches,
To reach a neutral outcome (20.5/20.5, the results would need to be shifted by 4.92 sigmas),
Assuming the distribution is normal, this gives confidence of > 99.999% - aka "better than 5 nines"
In short, the data still supports the statement that the team with more ECMs on it will tend to win.

Now that we have sufficient mass of data we can start to look at some other interesting features in the set.
The data so far says that you're 4.13x more likely to win if you're on the team that has more ECMs, this seems way too much but again let's assume that it's the case. I now ask the question "how certain is it that you are at least 2x more likely to win the match if you have an extra ECM." I do this by calculating how many sigmas the result can be shifted away from the measured result (33/8) before we arrive at a ratio of 2:1 (here 27.3333/13.6667). The answer is 2.23 sigmas which comes out to 97.4%. This is still a smallish amount of data, but it indicates that if you have more ECM on your team in a PUG game, you are 97.4% confident that you are at least 2x more likely to win than your opponents.

Deacon and others, please let me know if you spot a problem with what I am doing with the numbers here.

Again, I have asked Garth for some data (~1000 random games) and he wrote back that he's at least going to look into it for me, though the odds of it happening seem pretty slim. Either way I appreciate that our community manager is trying to help me out.


Edit: Addendum 1.
Some people have raised the concern that the results are caused by my bringing an ECM and being a good pilot. In effect they were saying "hey you are raising the average number of ECM on your team and you are a good pilot so you will tend to win more often!" On the surface they make a great point, so let's dig a little deeper:

If you look at the data used (conclusive matches) you'll see that my team had more ECM 2/3 of the time. If you now imagine that I am the best pilot in the universe (really I am only 3rd best, but thanks for the kind thoughts) and would win every match I entered, this would push the outcome to a 2:1 ratio and not let it go higher The fact that it has come out to >4.1 means that my skill as an individual pilot, even if taken to the extreme it does not explain the outcome. If anything we now need to add that "despite my excellent piloting skill the ECM numbers overcame me"

Still they raised a point that seemed reasonable on the surface so I had to address it.

Edited by Tolkien, 13 January 2013 - 03:20 AM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Tonight I realised something: If you play in a team you're screwed if everyone just plays his favorit mech and nobody uses ECM. No ECM is getting beaten. Hard. Again and again. Despite the team.

It's a bit sad that it is being forced on us with all it's abilities and no real disadvantages. And no real counter. It's simply too strong for its weight, price and size.

[Corvus Antaka]

Pretty shocking data Tolkien, esp when you consider how brawl heavy the game is. I can onyl surmise that the stealth effect is one of the causes of this significant imbalance, I know that it has made 8 mans very hard to call targets "alpha" "bravo" etc and so seeing this extend to PUGS is not unlikely.

Perhaps ideally what would could do is something like matching 16 equally skilled players in 8v8 with one team taking 1 ECM, the other 2, and seeing how these data sets would come out. My guess is that the team with the extra ECM benefits heavily from the loss in target calling ability the other team expects.

Thus one obvious solution is to have 1 ECM counter all enemy ECM thus stopping ECM boating, but while this is the simple solution given the issues with how ECM has removed LRMS as indirect fire flanking * flushing weapons from the game is another primary concern that must be addressed otherwise this game will continue to suffer from terrible gameplay.

Thanks for all this work Tolkien. Great Dedication dude.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 07 January 2013 - 01:52 PM.