1017 replies to this topic

[warp103]

DeaconW, on 07 January 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

And to me gaming is about suspension of disbelief...getting immersed. Shouldn't there be a sense of vulnerability and fear in a light mech? Shouldn't the sight of two atlases around the corner create some tension, not "meh"? I WANTthose experiences...but they are not to be had in MWO in its current state.



LOL. If you don't mind me asking, how old? It would be awesome to post his KDR if he was like four as evidence ECM is OP...

My son kdr is 1.75 . That is high considering it was .23 in his trial mech. Then .58 after playing in the iiya I got for him{it was a Bday present he loved rocking it till ECM}. He drop back to .49 and did not want to play any more{ECM}. Got him the Trollmano and he get about 2-3 kills each match avg.. More if he in Red Hand Sq. I forced him to get a DDC. That lowered his kills down to 1 a match{PUG}, 2 when to in RH Sq. Each 10 or so gamesI force him in to the IIya {Pug}

Oh I been playing since close beta and mine is .66. It dropped like a stone when ECM was intro'd. It is slowly going back up.
And yes, I am a better player than him. We have fought on opposite teams a few times and I have killed him each time.
The next Q why not go ECM too. Well 2 reasons, 1 just can not do that to noobs. 2 it just not fun for me{knowing that most times a will get at least one kill}|.
This video is my normal ship. You will see me, get 2 of my 3 kills. 2 are by pew pew laser, one by lrm. And watch the 2d try to eat my lunch.

Edited by warp103, 07 January 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Over 9000]

I don't see why people were complaining about LRMs, there is enough cover on EVERY map to completely avoid LRMs and have them waste ammo. You just have to think more strategically. Ok go here, hide here. Go here, power down to avoid detection.

A lot of mechs have AMS systems that are only .5 tons and ammo that is 1 ton each for 1000 rounds, AMS work for yourself AND teammates and with multiples AMS becomes even better.

What I don't like is starting a game and immediately look around to see who has an ECM and whether I should stick with them or not. Every. Single. Game.

What I don't like is that only certain mechs get ECM, they should be available to all mechs because that are so damn important. That way it would be my choice to use LRMs as long as I have my own ECM to back it up

What I do like is when my team has an Atlas ECM that I can keep up with and doesn't go running off on his own.

My final opinion and metaphors:

Imagine in another game where 1 single item you have completely shuts down another player's strategy, and you become superior, and your team has the advantage. 1. Single. Item. Here are some examples:

1. Call of Duty, equip ECM, any enemy player that has an assault rifle cannot fire and can only fire their handgun or knife.

2. World of Warcraft, equip ECM, enemy mages within your bg cannot cast frostbolt or fireball.

3. Dota 2, equip ECM, enemy team cannot use their first skill or level 6 skill.

I don't think I have to provide more metaphors.

This is not right.

[Scar]

Over 9000, on 07 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

I don't see why people were complaining about LRMs, there is enough cover on EVERY map to completely avoid LRMs and have them waste ammo. You just have to think more strategically. Ok go here, hide here. Go here, power down to avoid detection.

Furthermore, there was two relatively effective countermeasures against the LRM's - tactics and AMS.

[Belisarius1]

I doubt that this will ever be read, but I thought I would put my 2c in anyway.

ECM isn't a huge problem in a vacuum. It's poorly designed in that it has no counters other than itself, but there are minor modifications which would fix that.


The real problem is ECM when combined with immortal, lagging lights. Lights are able to move freely into jamming range and remain there for hilariously long periods of time because of their lag armour, while crippling OpFor's coordination and communication.

Adding insult to injury, ECM is specifically designed to counter the one weapon type which is capable of dealing consistent damage through PGI's godawful netcode.

This creates a dynamic where the team has to choose between wasting huge amounts of time chasing lagslut midgets while being hammered by the main body, or ignoring the lights and engaging blind and dumb. Both of those are terrible options.

If lights actually died the way they should, ECM would be a much smaller issue. As it is, it's a perfect storm of utter frustration, particularly for players with higher ping.

---

Edited by Belisarius1, 07 January 2013 - 06:10 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

Over 9000, on 07 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

I don't see why people were complaining about LRMs, there is enough cover on EVERY map to completely avoid LRMs and have them waste ammo. You just have to think more strategically. Ok go here, hide here. Go here, power down to avoid detection.

A lot of mechs have AMS systems that are only .5 tons and ammo that is 1 ton each for 1000 rounds, AMS work for yourself AND teammates and with multiples AMS becomes even better.

What I don't like is starting a game and immediately look around to see who has an ECM and whether I should stick with them or not. Every. Single. Game.

What I don't like is that only certain mechs get ECM, they should be available to all mechs because that are so damn important. That way it would be my choice to use LRMs as long as I have my own ECM to back it up

What I do like is when my team has an Atlas ECM that I can keep up with and doesn't go running off on his own.

My final opinion and metaphors:

Imagine in another game where 1 single item you have completely shuts down another player's strategy, and you become superior, and your team has the advantage. 1. Single. Item. Here are some examples:

1. Call of Duty, equip ECM, any enemy player that has an assault rifle cannot fire and can only fire their handgun or knife.

2. World of Warcraft, equip ECM, enemy mages within your bg cannot cast frostbolt or fireball.

3. Dota 2, equip ECM, enemy team cannot use their first skill or level 6 skill.

I don't think I have to provide more metaphors.

This is not right.

These metaphors are too 'weak', really what ECM does in a COD atmosphere is some good-great weapons can equip a perk (that doesn't take up a perk slot), that makes them immune to Sniper Rifles and Assault Rifles. They are invisible on radar for a couple seconds after sight. Also the disadvantage is a clip less of pistol ammo (as it weights 1.5 tons and 2 slots is not a heavy sacrifice at all). It also effects all teammates nearby and only is effectively countered by another person using it.

Which weapons would be used? Yeah.

It really does counter 2 of the 5 current weapon systems. You can say missiles/ballistic/energy, I personally view them as LRMs, SSRMs, SRMs, Lasers, Ballistics (and PPCs), as each of them requires different skills and provides different overall bonuses. Right now, bringing SSRMs or LRMs without your own ECM (or a teammates) is a liability.

[ShinVector]

My suggestion to balance ECM is to buff the TAG system even further.

Maybe some people have suggested something similar but I will take this as a semi-original idea.
1. Hopefully it stays canon on how the TAG system should work in general.
2. Promotes team play.
3. Gives many mechs a chance to beat a mech's ECM.

Someone suggest before TAG should be a toggle system.
My suggestion to additionally allow tag to be an auto target system and no longer manual. It is extermely hard to manually keep an ECM mech on TAG and staying still mean HEADSHOT !

Make AUTO TAG limited to a mechs usual FOV as long as you target and look an enemy ECM mech.
(Or maybe not. TAG might require an independant targeting angle because you would have to shoot you weapons as well using the normal targeting)

Auto TAG will try its best to track and keep the ECM Mech locked while you try to reach a distance >200M. (It might be lame if it is a 100% accurate thing.)
While this is happen hopefully your team mates can target and cursh the ECM mech with homing weapons or usual targeting as it should appear on radar now.

The A single ECM will certainly be in trouble if you have 2 or more mechs targeting it with Auto TAG.

Basically ECM still remains very useful but normal mechs with have a chance to disable its ECM from a distance. Pure missile boaters get ZIP unless they work with someone with TAG.

At this point of time. I don't really see the possibility of Auto TAG being OP other than possibilty having an affect on team focus fire. Which is that a bad thing ?

Edited by ShinVector, 07 January 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 07 January 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I like this idea and will join you in participating, but...


...my protest will likely take this form. I'm just going to run the Craven and then let everyone know in chat that my mech is "working as intended" according to the devs, My money would be that on Tuesday we get some comment from the devs like "well, we thought about changing ECM but our analytics show that only xx% of people are using it, which we don't think is too high." I will aim to fix that.

And in response PGI will think that ecm on 4 mechs is too much, so they'll remove it from lights and we'll all be running around in Atlas DCs...ah, I'm getting sick of this ecm babble. If nothing is done to balance ecm in the next patch I'm gonna find something else to play. I've got too many games waiting to go to bother with this nonsense.

[Sh4dow78]

Just allow locking on enemy ECM mech... is so simple. Now mech who carry ECS is immune to lock same as his teammates who are near him. So its is abused by lights coz now they are so damn hard to kill just u cant lock on them and they hit u VERY painfull... ECM should be a SUPPORT item and only ASSAULT clas should be able to have them. Whan a assault clacc have ECM i think ppl will more cooperate bcoz they will need to stick to assault who need protection, they will have to defend. And enemy team still is able to kill this mech bcoz can lock on it and only on it, and there we have another ascpect of team work ANTY MISSLE SYSTEM yes its also a support role addon it help U but also ur team mates. Now all ppl just pack alot DMG items and go for kill and game is lacking of teamwork. We have 8ppl group who need to play smart and together to win game. But now game is looks like every game u see like 3-4 lights with ECM DESTROYING all on their way bcoz the so hard to kill.

[MonkeyCheese]

This is becoming a god dam joke now, im at breaking point when 2 low ping lag shielded 150kph ecm ravens can tank and kill an entire team, why the hell wont they reply about this situation already.

I miss the closed beta days where light mechs had to be good pilots and use skill to avoid collisions and lrms, now days every ecm light is a fearless killing machine.

also 49 pages and still no official response in the command section, seriously come on guys.

edit: I love my fast mechs since the glory days in closed beta, I have 2 jenners, 2 ravens, 1 commando, 1 cidaca, only my 3l is ecm capable and I hate driving around in god mode, I am tempted to just sell it but im more leaning towards talking my group into running 4 ecm lights if we seriously dont get this joke sorted soon.

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 07 January 2013 - 10:49 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

Don't forget the hush hush lock of the 102 page one before. At least 151 ECM feedback pages, twice as much as 3rd person, and no response?

[Loonix]

Bluten, on 07 January 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Jesus box is still OP. BAP is still trash. I'll hold back my surprise.

Jesus Box is the single best name for ECM ever! lmao

ltwally, on 07 January 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

• There also seem to be more non-ECM variants of chassis that do have an ECM version. The Raven, especially, seemed to be witnessing a surge in popularity. Given that, for the Raven, the only that has really changed is the addition of an ECM variant, I'm hypothesising that many pilots are focusing on getting their Mech skills up so they can hit Master level on the Raven 3L. Other ECM mechs are probably seeing similar, if less noticeable, activity.

I agree almost entirely with all of your observations. Particularly the one above, I also suspect people are grinding mechs to unlock elite on the ECM models. For instance alongside the obligatory Atlas D-DC I see every match, I've also noticed people rolling in other less common chassis, some of them seem to be near stock.

Over 9000, on 07 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

I don't see why people were complaining about LRMs, there is enough cover on EVERY map to completely avoid LRMs and have them waste ammo. You just have to think more strategically. Ok go here, hide here. Go here, power down to avoid detection.

Damn straight.

To everyone; I'd just like to say it's a relief to see this topic being debated in a reasonable manner. Good to see people submitting objective analysis, observations of the meta game, hard data (well done Tolkien!) and constructive ideas for improvement. I've seen talk of ECM (and other topics) on the general page divulge into garbage, thanks to what I can only assume are 'fanboys' and supposedly 'le3t' players. I'm somewhat of a lurker only visiting occasionally and found it all a bit disheartening. Thanks for restoring my faith in the forum

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

You'd think they were politicians, but at least then they'd smile before kicking us in the nuts. They're just a bunch of wannabe nerds with poor communication skills. This is a high concern, low trust scenario. It requires a considered response and that's well and truly long behind us. Silence is deadly. That's what kills good games quicker than anything.

[StalaggtIKE]

Over 9000, on 07 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

What I don't like is starting a game and immediately look around to see who has an ECM and whether I should stick with them or not. Every. Single. Game.

Every game has divulged into this. At the start of the match everyone is looking around for an ECM ally. Once they find him, they clump around him and follows were ever he goes. Sometimes into certain doom.

Funny story: Last night in a game, I was running my AC20-pault. I realized we had 4 ECM guys on our team, so was sure we would win. As I was typing in chat "You think we have enough ECM?", a flock of 2 RVN-3L and 1 COM-2D came over the ridge! For whatever reason they singled me out and started running circles around me hitting me with a barrage of mlasers and SSRM2. I was pretty sure I was done for in my slow AC20 toting machine. However I decided not to go without a fight. So I just waited and took a few patient shots. BOOM! Direct hit. The COM-2D killed in one shot! Again I waited and BOOM, a RVN-3L down. At this point I'm laughing hysterically. One more shot and I dropped the last Raven. My kills were in as much disbelief as I was; one even chatted, "Really, one shot?" By that time the rest of the enemy team starting focusing on me. I was able to run off as my team provided cover. I came back around and was able to score one more kill on a Cataphract before finally being eliminated. So I ended the game with 3 kills, since the phract pilot Alt-f4'ed. Anyway, we won our game of 4 ECM vs 4 ECM with a bit of skillful lucky shots by me.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 January 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

StalaggtIKE, on 08 January 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

... Anyway, we won our game of 4 ECM vs 4 ECM with a bit of skillful lucky shots by me.

Had 2 similar games last night. First game, a Commando and a Raven, both with ECM, the second game, a Commando and 2 Ravens with ECM, and killed them all (gotta love Streaks...). Now, for full disclosure, I run an Atlas D-DC, ECM, BAP, 3 SSRM2, 2 large lasers and an AC20. And have been for awhile now. And that is just it, I love the Stalker, I prefer my RS and Founders D Atlases, and I liked LRMS for the range and indirect fire. Used to use LRMs to soften as they got close, switch to lasers and SRM when close to the enemy. with LRM coming into play if still beyond 180 m. But since the advent of ECM, I'm stuck 99% of the time in that damn D-DC, to the point I almost hate it. And if I did not have ECM and Streaks, and you have to have ECM for counter if you use Streaks, it would have been a very different story.

The main issue beyond the "jesus box" is that it has driven gameplay into very narrow channels. I usually drop in a 3-4 man group, with about 10% of the time an 8 man drop, there has to be at least 2 ECM (one countering and one disrupting) in a PUG match, and 4 min in a 8 man drop, and I'm usually the guy. I have posted consistently against the current ECM, even though I use it all the time. Even though I tell my group to bring as many ECM as we can. I use it, and with it's current functionality, and I'm against it, but to compete, YOU HAVE TO HAVE IT. And that is why it has to change, soon as it boils down to having it = win, not having it = lose in most scenarios, then it is not balanced.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 08 January 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[Skyscream Sapphire]

Tolkien, on 07 January 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

The hypothesis is that the team with more ECM systems will tend to win.

Total Games: 54
Inconclusive Games: 13 - these are games where the number of ECM systems is equal on both teams.
Conclusive games: 41
The conclusive games break down as follows:
Matching expectations: 33
Contradicted expectations: 8
Using the formula given on page 10 of this document: http://classes.soe.u...nter03/h5m3.pdf
I arrive at
Sigma=0.0619 which is 2.54 matches,
To reach a neutral outcome (20.5/20.5, the results would need to be shifted by 4.92 sigmas),
Assuming the distribution is normal, this gives confidence of > 99.999% - aka "better than 5 nines"
In short, the data still supports the statement that the team with more ECMs on it will tend to win.

Now that we have sufficient mass of data we can start to look at some other interesting features in the set.
The data so far says that you're 4.13x more likely to win if you're on the team that has more ECMs, this seems way too much but again let's assume that it's the case. I now ask the question "how certain is it that you are at least 2x more likely to win the match if you have an extra ECM." I do this by calculating how many sigmas the result can be shifted away from the measured result (33/8) before we arrive at a ratio of 2:1 (here 27.3333/13.6667). The answer is 2.23 sigmas which comes out to 97.4%. This is still a smallish amount of data, but it indicates that if you have more ECM on your team in a PUG game, you are 97.4% confident that you are at least 2x more likely to win than your opponents.

Tolkien, good statistical analysis. Thank you for collecting the data so we can look at this objectively.

As for worrying about the sample size and getting more data, 97.5% confidence is 97.5% confidence, no matter how much data you have. That's the point of confidence intervals. If you really had a limited sample size (just a few matches), you wouldn't be able to reach this number. 41 conclusive games is pretty statistically significant.

Assuming your hypothesis is correct, more data would only serve to raise the win:loss ratio at 97.5% or increase the confidence of 2:1 above 97.5%, depending on how you look at it, which is really an academic difference at this point. Any argument to the effectiveness appears to be dead in light of this work.

[Tolkien]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 08 January 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

Tolkien, good statistical analysis. Thank you for collecting the data so we can look at this objectively.

As for worrying about the sample size and getting more data, 97.5% confidence is 97.5% confidence, no matter how much data you have. That's the point of confidence intervals. If you really had a limited sample size (just a few matches), you wouldn't be able to reach this number. 41 conclusive games is pretty statistically significant.

Assuming your hypothesis is correct, more data would only serve to raise the win:loss ratio at 97.5% or increase the confidence of 2:1 above 97.5%, depending on how you look at it, which is really an academic difference at this point. Any argument to the effectiveness appears to be dead in light of this work.

Thanks Skyscream.

I won't say it's dead, but I can say it is on life support... The only argument against the data that I view as having much merit at this point is that me carrying an ECM with my fearsome 50.6% win/loss ratio is skewing the data. That 4.2x win ratio just looks way too high to me, even as someone who thinks ECM is too beneficial for 1.5 tons, I have trouble accepting it at face value and I was there collecting the data.

Still, I would prefer to collect using a true observer mode so I could just count ECMs and see what happens, as some critics will never be satisfied by anything else. Granted there are some who would debate any result since they don't like to hear that ECM is at least highly correlated with skewed match outcomes.

I'm going to give data collection a rest for a little bit and hope that I can get my hands on some raw data - hopefully Garth can round some up for me so I can find out if the data is fully representative.

Edited by Tolkien, 08 January 2013 - 11:44 AM.

[ShadowThunder77]

will ECM ever be nerfed or removed??

it does far too much for something that is so lightweight and only takes up 2 slots and that definitly isnt ballanced.

[ShadowThunder77]

anyone??

[Ronstar]

For all you data pushing nerds trying to credit or discredit the ECM *god mode* numbers; its very simple to see how over powered ECM is:

Take 1 Raven 3L with ECM and pit it against the same Raven without ECM, but put Begal or AMS on it and see who wins.

My bets are on the one with ECM.

Pilot has same skills, only the one with ECM wont have to aim very much.


ECM needs to be balanced and fall more in line with the TT rules, cause currently it is the *Jesus Box*.


People bitched and complained about the streak cats, well now they simply nerfed those mechs and moved it to the ones with ECM. GJ PGI! Looking forward to the next musical chair everyone wants to sit in!


With the game in its current state and when everyone wisens up, you wont see any matches except everyone piloting the Raven 3L with ECM.

Edited by Ronstar, 08 January 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[HiplyRustic]

Hey, here's a thought:

Leave ECM exactly as it exists today except:

-Limit it to lights, and only lights
-Make it cover only other mechs and not the ECM mech. Make it so that ECM mechs can not be shielded by other ECM mechs.

Think about it.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 08 January 2013 - 11:55 AM.