478 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Haha! It took me five minutes to track down where that quote came from. =)

[LordDante]

no no its this

[Muz0079]

I recently decided to buy my 1st assault mech (AS7-D) to give them a whirl and I really wish at least half the people in the pugs I end up in read this.
I dunno if its the recent poptart fotm but its becoming nearly impossible to move out even as a lance, never mind as a team. Most light and mediums ****** off never to be seen again and the heavies and other assaults seem to now just hang back and dont even try and support you when you end up being the focus-fired down in 10 seconds.
Obviously wandering into no-mans land on alpine or tourmaline on your own is going to invite an early death but there is a balance to be struck.
I can forgive LRM boats and snipers digging in and staying out of the front lines, but if you're in a brawler-spec assault mech then you should be the ones grouping up tanking the damage and pushing the enemy back, not cowering under a mountain letting your team get picked off one by one! Everyone else should be using their mechs strengths to support these guys.

[RLBell]

We (maybe just me) need a thread of suggestions for when following the fracking Atlas is not an option, because I am the fracking Atlas.

Drat, my sig needs work

Edited by RLBell, 22 April 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[Void Angel]

I think it really is the poptart flavor of the month build that's causing so much scatter-and-snipe behaviors. It was REALLY bad the Friday night they kicked off the Assault Versus the World tournament (which is still going on at this writing, of course.) Everyone and his cross-eyed uncle seemed to be a PPC/Gauss Highlander of some kind, and when you have a lot of poptart/snipers in the match, it can be really hard on builds that actually rely on sustained combat. On the other hand, as the tournament has gone on I've seen fewer and fewer snipers running around - and even some people (myself included) doggedly using LRMs, despite last month's emasculation^*.

In any case, I think one of the reasons PGI does these tournaments (other than that they're fun) is that it allows them to collect demographics - in this case targeted on Assaults in general, and Highlanders in particular. So remember that it's a Beta, and that they have diligently addressed balanceand technical issues in the past.

Now, as far as what to do as the Atlas? Well, that's another post, too, but generally:

• Stay in cover whenever possible as you move to contact. Especially with all the poptarts out there, you need to conserve your combat power until it's time to fight.
  
• Try to get a feel for what the team is doing; if they're all scattering out and poptarting, you may have to play bodyguard for the newbs when the enemy team pushes into them. The problem with building ONLY long-range weapons is that they can't both build a massive alpha and sustain a high rate of fire - so a concerted push by Mechs using men's builds will usually roll snipers.
  
• Watch the map, communicate what you intend to do to the team, and be flexible. Ask your scouts what they see, and adapt as best you can. No plan survives contact with the enemy, so you'll have to rely on your own judgement when it all hits the fan.
  
• No post can give you good judgement - only learning from experience does that. Try to understand what happened in any given fight, especially if you got rolled. By spectating and always trying to analyze the results of your and others' decisions, you can learn what works, and what doesn't.

(*:I'd been playing sporadically since about the week of the LRM nerf, so I wasn't aware it had happened until the tournament. I'd just assumed people were learning to duck - until I plastered 40 LRMs into a Highlander's exposed rear internals and it didn't even change fracking color. But that's another post.)

[1453 R]

Yeah...LRMs are in a weird spot right now. I'm one of the...probably about three...guys on the forums who believes that Paul's upcoming LRM speed buffs will actually go quite a ways towards addressing the weapon's weaknesses, but there's just no arguing that they just do not do the damage they used to anymore. I feel bad for people who aren't fake-Longbow Stalkers, I really, honestly do...but god damn is it good not to see four fake-Longbows a match anymore. Yeah, the poptarts are out in force, but for some reason I don't mind them nearly as much. Dunno. Maybe (certainly) it's just me.

Anyways. I do think a partial exception can be made for an Atlas acting perhaps too cautiously in the field if it's obvious that one's team is a bunch of snipehards scattering to the winds and leaving their fracking Atlas essentially unsupported. At that point I suppose it might be time for the Fracking Atlas to trundle along behind a Highlander or something and feel really sour about it. Blrrgh. Really, it's kind of a bad time to be the Fracking Atlas right now...

[Liquid Leopard]

Phoenix Gray, on 27 February 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

If your scout disappears in a VISIBLE ball of fire, he's doing his job.

This is what many armed forces mean by "force recon". Your side judges the enemy's strength by the force with which you're annihilated. Having been taken out of the game, you have all the more time to press "Y" and tell your team about the mechs that killed you. I suck, so I do a lot of that.

[Wildstreak]

Piemei, on 22 April 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

I can forgive LRM boats and snipers digging in and staying out of the front lines, but if you're in a brawler-spec assault mech then you should be the ones grouping up tanking the damage and pushing the enemy back, not cowering under a mountain letting your team get picked off one by one! Everyone else should be using their mechs strengths to support these guys.

Unless you are moving under cover during the sniper fight to get into position for close range combat.

RLBell, on 22 April 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

We (maybe just me) need a thread of suggestions for when following the fracking Atlas is not an option, because I am the fracking Atlas.

Drat, my sig needs work

Possible thread titles:
Developing Battlefield Awareness
Know Your Combat Role
Awesomes Make Great Shields
Conquest is a Brawling Training Ground

[Void Angel]

1453 R, on 30 April 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

Yeah...LRMs are in a weird spot right now. I'm one of the...probably about three...guys on the forums who believes that Paul's upcoming LRM speed buffs will actually go quite a ways towards addressing the weapon's weaknesses, but there's just no arguing that they just do not do the damage they used to anymore. I feel bad for people who aren't fake-Longbow Stalkers, I really, honestly do...but god damn is it good not to see four fake-Longbows a match anymore. Yeah, the poptarts are out in force, but for some reason I don't mind them nearly as much. Dunno. Maybe (certainly) it's just me.

Anyways. I do think a partial exception can be made for an Atlas acting perhaps too cautiously in the field if it's obvious that one's team is a bunch of snipehards scattering to the winds and leaving their fracking Atlas essentially unsupported. At that point I suppose it might be time for the Fracking Atlas to trundle along behind a Highlander or something and feel really sour about it. Blrrgh. Really, it's kind of a bad time to be the Fracking Atlas right now...

Ah, but take heart, Forum Buddy,^™ for the Brawler Backlash^® has begun! If you'll pardon me a bit of smug self-congratulation: what I told people before, when Poptart Hell became full and disgorged its Highlanders upon the world of the living, is now being demonstrated in PuG matches - having a team full of nothing but snipers is only viable when everyone else is doing it, too. My Atlas right now has discarded his long-range weapons and dusted off his AC/20 and ASRM6s. Even with SRMs slightly nerfed at present, it is a beautiful thing.

You have to still look around, figure out what's going on, and predict your team's activities - I actually think I covered that early on in this thread. (Remember, too, that I'm not advocating specific tactics but a philosophy of aggressive, concerted action and cooperation.) But brawlers, particularly high-burst brawlers that don't have to orient themselves constantly at the enemy to maximize dps, are doing very well if you play them right. The trick is to keep telling the team, every match, "stay together, focus fire, and keep moving. Don't camp if you're a sniper, snipe on the move." Sometimes, they won't listen, and you'll end up getting plastered across the landscape while they cower in their sniper holes; you have to gauge your level of aggression and be prepared to hug cover for a while. Realize that sometimes you'll screw up and get caught, but if you do it right, you'll still leave an Atlas-sized hole in the enemy team - and distract, damage, and displace enough of the enemy team that your own SniparWarriors^(tm) will still be able to win.

REPENT, PPCWARRIORS! I am the Atlas, and I have come to save thee!

Seriously, though, the ERPPC especially is a bit too powerful, and will have to be toned down a bit - but the SniparWarrior craze is fizzling out somewhat. If we continue to adapt our tactics and show non-sniper builds to be effective, that trend will continue to balance things out a bit more.

Edited by Void Angel, 02 May 2013 - 12:34 AM.

[Ser Barristan]

I finally made the jump to the assault chassis after pretty much exclusively running HBKs. I went for HGNs and configured them for close assault with nary a PPC among them. Since I lived and died in mediums follow the frakking Atlas is nearly a creed, so even when driving an assault I tend to FFA. OpFor seems to naturally gravitate their attention to that big skull on the AS7 rather than my cab over engine tractor trailer HGN. I think it probably is a result of Pareidolia. You will clean up when people don't focus on your assault in a brawl. More then you could ever imagine with a 50 tonner, cut through heavies like carving a cake. Also bonus points when its a DDC giving you a nice ECM bonus on the approach.

[Cato Phoenix]

I think that may be because Highlanders look like widdle bitty Trebuchets at a distance.

[Liquid Leopard]

Moenrg, on 26 December 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

As the long time Atlas pilot, here are some general "rules" for those following:
1) Do not follow directly behind!!! follow off to the side, so you can actually shoot at what the atlas is shooting at.
2) If the atlas is heading towards the enemy, he's probably in a brawling setup (in fact if it's me, I'm definitely in a brawling setup)
3) Keep a fire lane, do not cut in front of the atlas, or be willing to live with an AC-20 in the back.
4) A good atlas pilot isn't going to chase light mechs, do your best to keep those away from him.
5) Once the atlas commits to a battle, he's there until the end, there is no 'breaking off', Once you see them engage, support them or expect that they are lost to the team.

^ THIS. All of this!!!
1) Seriously, people!
2) But, if the Atlas is not heading towards the enemy, then what? I think sometimes this is a sign that he wants to play "lone gunman" and snipe at the enemy while the rest of us poor slobs brawl. He plans to mop up the enemy after we've softened them up (which doesn't make him a team player, in my mind). Maybe we should still follow the Atlas in that case. If the whole team gathers around, it's harder for him to run off by himself, right?
3) Walk in front of the Atlas, and you've not only taken damage to the back, but denied your teammate a shot. It's bad practice to walk in front of teamates at all, even my CPLT-C1 with the medium lasers. I realize it's going to happen sometimes, but I'd rather not shoot my own teamate (or be taken down by friendly fire again).
4) Srsly! Don't leave your Atlas to fight the Trollmando alone. If the troll in the Commando was an easy kill for an Atlas, he wouldn't be trolling in a Commando.
5) Seriously, people! ~ 50kph isn't great for manuevering, much less fleeing. If the Atlas is the least bit competent, he knows he's the biggest target. If he can commit to a target, so can you. By the way, if at least one of you can maintain line of sight to a target, that will also help anyone on your team with LRMs.
Now, here's my question: What if there isn't an Atlas at all? Follow the Highlander? Follow the Stalker? So far I've had the luck that, when we had 4 Highlanders in my PuG, they tended to go the same direction. I've been in PuGs where I settled for "Follow the Awesome".
I'm using the principle of "The biggest mech draws fire first."

[Dawnstealer]

As someone who started out with a Beagle/TAG-fitted Cicada and have now moved to the aforementioned "dong-mech"/LRM boat, it's amazing to me that it seems like no one else, especially not scouts, use the TAG. In my Cicada, I'd run around behind the enemy line, single out someone damaged (or the Atlas/Highlander), and TAG them up. This usually worked until a scout on the other team (or a Catapult...ALWAYS a catapult) got wise and started blasting away. Then it was off to the races.

Especially with the prevalence of ECM, TAGs are absolutely essential. Given that everyone seems to be hunkering down behind something, additionally protected by ECM, it's made LRMs nearly useless unless you have line of sight AND are close enough to use a TAG.

A scout with a TAG takes away that need, allowing a slow-moving dong-tub like my Stalker to trundle up to the battlefield, making it rain LRMs, accurately, on whomever the scout wishes. I can't express that enough: USE AN ENERGY SLOT ON A TAG IF YOU ARE A SCOUT, if at all possible (not always an option when you have one or two energy spots, I know).

Of course, there are so few LRM boats out there now, and so many PPC/LL boats, maybe it's not such a good use.

Another point: at range, take out the scouts. I die with some frequency, but 9 times out of 10, it's because one or more scouts manage to hem me off and get behind me. Then begins the pirouette-dance of a small running circles while the big tries to turn fast enough to take out their legs. Having been on both sides of that one, the little wins more often than not unless another scout comes to their aid (or a big can help out from a little ways away).

So the rules for scouting:

1) In CONQUEST, go cap a resource or two, but THEN RETURN TO THE HERD. Your services are needed for scouting and harassing other scouts. If you run around capping, you eventually look around and realize your entire team's dead and five or so enemy mechs are closing in on your position (which is now obvious). Sure, you may luck out and they'll all be slow and you can save the day, but if you had just supported your team, it wouldn't be necessary.

YES, there are games where everything goes wrong and you only have one or two scouts left and the other team is stomping around with seven Assaults or something, and the ONLY choice you have is to cap. In that case? Go cap. Otherwise? Help your team by spotting the enemy and harassing enemy scouts.

2) LOCK YOUR TARGETS. I see this one a lot: run into a herd, shooting randomly, run out. If you lock on a target, ESPECIALLY one that has ECM? Other people can shoot accurately at that target. This kind of goes along with focused fire - if you don't lock that target, you might be a fantastic individual player, but you aren't doing a lot of good for the rest of your team.

3) Group with other scouts. When I was running around in my Spider or Cicada, I'd usually team up (ie. follow around) a Jenner or other mech with similar speed. Even with just a two-person team, this is incredibly effective. You can form a little "piranha pack," slicing up enemy scouts or isolated bigs.

Granted, this takes a fellow scout that has a similar view on teamwork and will help you take down that isolated scout or big, otherwise you find yourself in a slugfest on your own far from the action; then you're not doing your team any good.

4) Be a good teammate. This is the one I've seen the most - I have seen some phenomenal individual players that can do things that, when watching as a spectator, I'm left sitting back in my chair wondering how they could possibly react that fast or be that accurate. Sometimes, they win out and take out something they should, by right, never had a chance against (Spider vs. Atlas, for example).

More often than not, they eventually run out of room to maneuver, get cornered by three mechs (why does it always seem those three mechs are always a Highlander, Atlas, and Raven? WHY??) and then go down in flames. Sure they inflicted a lot of damage, but had they done those drive-by shootings and used those skills in the framework of a team and focused on the enemy early in the match, it might not have come down to just them and three enemies.

5) FOCUS FIRE. As a scout, or I guess anyone, this is by far the biggest one and the one on that list that I can't agree with enough. Not only focus on the same target, but, if possible, the same location. If it's a scout, focus on the legs, if it's an assault, typically focus on the arms or side torsos. Scouts - do your thing, circle around, and hit them from behind. This can be real hard in a true scrum, I know, but for a general rule, it rarely lets me down.

OH!!

5) ASSAULT MECHS: be wary of your little teammates. While rubbing up against a fellow Assault mech doesn't do much, when you're rocking 15-20 points of armor on your legs, they can immediately go "red" if a teammate brushes you (typically at the start). This kind of goes with the "Fire Lanes" rule: don't walk over your teammate scouts - IT HURTS THEM.

Edited by Dawnstealer, 03 May 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Void Angel]

Liquid Leopard, on 03 May 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Now, here's my question: What if there isn't an Atlas at all? Follow the Highlander? Follow the Stalker? So far I've had the luck that, when we had 4 Highlanders in my PuG, they tended to go the same direction. I've been in PuGs where I settled for "Follow the Awesome".
I'm using the principle of "The biggest mech draws fire first."

Void Angel, on 19 December 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Really, just follow and support any big 'mech, preferably one with ECM.

=)

[Just wanna play]

Best part about following the atlas and /or flanking the enemy? if you flank them it is a lose/lose situation, and it would be really dumb to ignore the atlas and shoot at his little buddy when the atlas is shreddig themn to bits


believe it or not sometimes i see people ignore my teams atlas and shoot at me! when supporting an atlas in my phract they will completely ignore the massive robot with the skull and shoot his buddy, result? i die, enemy flanked by entire team and barely notice one side of there mech is glowing red by the time they get me

kinda sucks being in a ppc boat tho (awesome 8q) people know that you cant do much up close and sometimes the atlas im supporting pays no attention when some centurions start killing me of course some don't realize ppcs are still fairly useful up close if you know what your doing, you just struggle against real brawlers/assaults

[Greye]

After reading this thread, I can say that I fully agree with the OP in that following the Atlas is really an effective method for success in PUG. I think it can be applied to other mechs in the assault class but this really is what the Atlas is best suited for. Very rarely do I see an Atlas by themselves. If I do they are usually people that don't know how to pilot them or their team is mostly dead.

I think the idea really boils down to just staying together, with the exception of lights. To be honest I think they are better suited running interference; i.e., base cap, or scouting the battlefield tagging or just visually locating enemy mechs. I see a lot of light mechs that sit and engage other mechs and often get caught by surprise when that mech brings friends to bear.

To me it does take a bit more skill to pilot an Atlas or any assault class mech really. I don't think I'm an "expert" Atlas pilot by any means. But due to its speed and mobility I think that makes the pilot's skill an even greater factor because it takes longer to get to places and maneuver compared to other mechs. You really have to have a sense of planning and proper placement with your surroundings. Unlike a light, medium, or even a Dragon, you can't really change your mind and book it all over the map in a reasonable amount of time.

[DreadDjinn]

Taizan, on 03 January 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

As a medium pilot, I never follow the Atlas or Stalker, maybe with an Awesome because they employ similar battlefield tactics and speed. I will sometimes hang around slow assault mechs to aid them against other harassing units or to benefit from AMS/ECM cover, but binding myself to such a slow mech really makes me vulnerable, this is something for heavies or other slow mechs.

I think the OP is still correct, but needs some corollaries.

1) Follow the frackingt Atlas if you're made for a stand-up fight (sniper, boat, or brawler). Scouts and fast-response can be forgiven for not follwing the main battlegroup.

2) For the Atlas, please don't just move straight over open ground while the enemy is behind the opposing ridge. Not to mention, I'm sure the OP means you can still use cover and concealment. "Follow the Atlas" doesn't mean gluing yourself to its butt. It just means being close enough to provide support as opposed to not being close enough to do squat.

[Void Angel]

I heartily agree - those points were elaborated on in some of the later discussions a few pages into the post, in fact.

Dawnstealer, on 03 May 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

As someone who started out with a Beagle/TAG-fitted Cicada and have now moved to the aforementioned "dong-mech"/LRM boat, it's amazing to me that it seems like no one else, especially not scouts, use the TAG. In my Cicada, I'd run around behind the enemy line, single out someone damaged (or the Atlas/Highlander), and TAG them up. This usually worked until a scout on the other team (or a Catapult...ALWAYS a catapult) got wise and started blasting away. Then it was off to the races.

Sadly, I suspect people have stopped carrying TAG for the same reason they've stopped carrying AMS - but that's another thread.

Just wanna play, on 03 May 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

believe it or not sometimes i see people ignore my teams atlas and shoot at me! when supporting an atlas in my phract they will completely ignore the massive robot with the skull and shoot his buddy, result? i die, enemy flanked by entire team and barely notice one side of there mech is glowing red by the time they get me

I actually can believe it. It just depends on how you weight the tactical decision. If I'm faced with the choice between an Atlas and a Cataphract, I have to take into account how much firepower each can dish out compared to how much damage it will take me to kill one of them. A 70-ton 'Phract can hold a lot of guns, so if they see you with a lot of firepower, they may decide that it's worthwhile to kill you first, if they can do it fast. What you do in that case is break contact briefly - move behind a building or literally hide behind the Atlas. This forces them into a devil's bargain between chasing you PAST your angry teammates, or switching to another target. Then you either wait two seconds or so for them to get busy trying to kill the Atlas, or simply fight them as they round whatever cover you found. I generally, as an Atlas pilot, will focus on other assaults - but I can see why someone might go the other way.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 May 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[Just wanna play]

yeah i couldnt run that fast my phracts kinda slow,, and they had dragons chasing me while their assaults caught up, lol would you spend the time killing an assaults wing man if the entire enemy team was flanking you?

[Void Angel]

I might, actually - it depends on if I felt that I could kill or cripple you before they dragged me down. It's not a good trade, but if I made enough mistakes (or my team hung me out to dry) and ended up in that position, it's better for me to take out the wounded 'mech and reduce your team's firepower than it would be to gift their Atlas or whatever with amber armor while leaving all of your firepower intact. After I killed you (or destroyed the bulk of your weapons,) I'd turn on the most vulnerable of your assault 'mechs and do as much damage as I could to it before the gory end.

Similarly, if your Cataphract is rather slow and heavily armed (I know mine is,) it actually might be best for my team to plaster you across the landscape before surrounding the Atlas to drag him down - especially if you've already taken damage by the time we see the Atlas. Because of the way engine tonnages scale, you can fit a much larger proportion of your tonnage as weaponry while still maintaining a given speed. A stock D-DC spends 27% of its tonnage on a standard engine, while a Cataphract spends only 18.6% for a standard engine to achieve the same speed - and a Cataphract seems to suffer less from equipping an XL. Armor, on the other hand, scales linearly with tonnage. This means that if I choose to smash you instead of your Atlas buddy in a pure slugging match, I've actually eliminated more of your team's firepower per point of damage dealt.

Conversely, though, if I can smash your Atlas with my team before your team can inflict significant damage on me, it's highly advantageous to do so. That Atlas (or Highlander, etc.) represents a loss of morale as well as firepower - and because the Atlas represents more concentrated tonnage overall (even though his potential weapon% is lower,) he can often crush smaller opponents with ease. Which of course means that our own Atlas (or etc.) can now scatter their smaller elements like sheep.

Through all of this, of course, we have to remember that tactics are fluid. I've hung back in my Atlas at some points: usually mid-fight when my armor is gone, but sometimes because the SniparWarriors wouldn't move. Whether you beat on the Atlas or cull the Cataphract really depends on the tactical situation more than anything else. In order to avoid being targeted too much, try to tag out with your Assault Buddy - maneuver so that if they chase you, they have to expose their backs to him, and only do a hard engage when they're solidly focused on him first.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 May 2013 - 10:07 PM.