478 replies to this topic

[Decoy3]

Void Angel, on 30 March 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

The reason that many people report being hung out to dry when they place themselves at risk is that many people get hung out to dry by their team when they place themselves at risk. This happens because the game has been instilling learned helplessness in the player base regarding being shot - particularly with autocannons.

This is so true.

Dropped on Terra Therma, team looked like it wanted to push the Murder Bowl™ so my friend and I rolled that way in our assaults. We hit the entrance and keep going, charging into three mechs sniping from an entrance. They decide they don't want to mess with us and back out, but our pugs decide to sit at the entrance and try to snipe. We held the bowl for 3-5 minutes, and tried to get our pugs to set up a firing line (if there are 8 mechs spread around the circle, the chance of any one of them coming under focus fire is pretty low). But they decide they're betting off crammed into a choke point, and eventually the guys stuck at the back of the group decide they can't get shots and wander off. After that our team slowly splits itself into small groups that get isolated from one another and torn to shreds.

Got Terra Therma again a few drops later and tried to convince the pugs to follow the charge. They form up behind me and I push. Then the guys right behind me decide to slam their mechs into reverse, and suddenly we have a 7 mech pile-up in the choke point, and after my buddy and I get picked apart, they die to artillery and friendly fire. Seriously, the guys up front that couldn't back up started shooting the guys behind them; so the guys in the back return fire.

Those are just two instances of pugs wanting to go the hot spot on the map where all the kills happen, but not manning up and committing to actually taking and holding it. We had a few matches where we did manage to get the pugs on our page, and wrecked some enemy mechs...but those felt more like the exception.

Honestly. This is the number one reason I don't play assaults much anymore.

Edited by Decoy3, 05 April 2014 - 08:06 AM.

[Void Angel]

Unfortunately, this will tend to happen when you're paired up with people from Elo Hell - many (though not all) low-Elo players are there in part because they have bad attitudes.

The best advice I can give you is to keep trying to communicate and cooperate with the PuGs - but try to read their "body language," and if they don't want to follow the path of righteousness, do what you can to support them. Above all, and this is the most important, do not yell at them. This is an issue with which I struggle - my inner rage-monster insists that the stupid should be told that they're stupid - and often! But the cold, hard fact is that when we scream at our teammates, we make them dumber. Seriously, they did research: people who are angry or otherwise stressed lose higher reasoning ability and start to choose measurably poorer solutions to complex problems. They also, in-game, tend to yell back at you, which makes YOU dumber. So clench your jaw till your teeth crack, but at all costs only give polite advice, and do not get into arguments. =)

PS: Rather than give up on Assaults completely, grab a more mobile assault (like a Victor or Highlander) and load them out with PPCs and a couple of autocannons - or just take a fire-support vehicle like the Stalker. You should always pretend that your Battlemech has armor for a reason, but not all Assaults have to be charge-leading brawlers - nor do you have to brawl to win. My favorite pug advice for Terra Therma, for example, is to either set up a kill zone leading to an exit, or rotate the entire team around the outside of the Thunderdome - then jump on the enemy when the scouts find out where they are. Stay away from the giant bowl of heat and failure; but if the team insists, back them up.

[Picone]

Stalker a fire support vehicle pfffffft those things are bad ass if you kit them out right. I've got a misery running 2xLLAS, 3xMLAS and an AC20 that doesn't overheat. It just kills shit and stalkers are notoriously hard to put down. Wish I knew where my ELO sat, I can pretty much guarantee there's at least four man drops on my teams at all time. I know I won't be up the top but I'm pretty sure I'm a long way from the bottom these days. Most of the time the team seems to demonstrate some sort of team play and I can't remember the last time I saw, for example, a noob texting to ask how to get rid of 3rd person view (why the **** do they make that the default anyway). I usually just try to guide the other puggers by map commands or texting and it definitely helps but it doesn't when you're trying to push through a gap in the heat of the moment. That would require either a) teamspeak (which for some reason causes my MWO client to crash) or the pugs to be paying attention which is definitely a variable

[Whoops]

Default 3rd is stupid, but new players get a popup to watch the tutorial...and the first thing that does is tell you how to move between views. It should be mandatory for new accounts to avoid the basic "how do I..." questions.

Pretty sure I'm in some of those bottom ELOs. Not because I have a "bad attitude", but because I'm just not pro at the twitch sniping that seems to be mandatory these days, and I don't feel like LRM boating unless they figure out a way to make it indirect fire support rather than indirect rain of death lolzfest (for real, PGI...change the targeting to make it require more than just the 'R' button!!!). I mainly play scouts, so I'm off making sure we're not being flanked, trying to find the enemy, etc.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been in a PUG where someone (Atlas or no) actually gave direction that wasn't me saying "'Mechs in X#, watch your flanks". Most of the people down in my bracket (or lack thereof) are of the mindset that their K/D is more important than say...teamwork. And that it's always a $h1tty team that gets them killed. Never mind the lack of communication that led them to charging off on their own with little to no support.

Something else to remember, though, is that just because they're in an Atlas doesn't mean they're the best qualified to lead the push. Atlai pilots can be no skill people too, and many use the chassis as a "I own the biggest 'Mech around, so I better destroy people in 3 seconds" mentality and still get shredded.

[Decoy3]

Void Angel, on 05 April 2014 - 11:36 PM, said:

PS: Rather than give up on Assaults completely, grab a more mobile assault (like a Victor or Highlander) and load them out with PPCs and a couple of autocannons - or just take a fire-support vehicle like the Stalker. You should always pretend that your Battlemech has armor for a reason, but not all Assaults have to be charge-leading brawlers - nor do you have to brawl to win. My favorite pug advice for Terra Therma, for example, is to either set up a kill zone leading to an exit, or rotate the entire team around the outside of the Thunderdome - then jump on the enemy when the scouts find out where they are. Stay away from the giant bowl of heat and failure; but if the team insists, back them up.

I certainly hope I'm not in low Elo hell, my Misery stats are what I would consider respectable. It's definitely not a front line mech (not that you'd know it from watching me play), but I'm constantly on the fence on buying more Atlas variants. The big dumb gorilla arms are tough, and it feels like I'm far more at the mercy of my pugs playing as more of a group. I enjoy the hell out of at least one of my Victors. But I really don't play that like an assault mech, so I kind of discounted it.

As for the shouting, I totally agree. A few months ago I realized that I can come off as a terrible person when I'm just typing, and since that's the only part of me that pugs see I've been trying to both use in-game chat more often, and always keep it polite when doing so. It really seems to be helping the game experience, moreso than I thought it would.

Cyron Zarva, on 06 April 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

Something else to remember, though, is that just because they're in an Atlas doesn't mean they're the best qualified to lead the push. Atlai pilots can be no skill people too, and many use the chassis as a "I own the biggest 'Mech around, so I better destroy people in 3 seconds" mentality and still get shredded.

It's unfortunate when an Atlas pilot is a bad tank. But more often than not, you still want them leading the push if for no other reason than they'll still make a decent meatshield. Even if they lose the majority of their firepower in two seconds, most people will keep shooting him even after he's nothing but a stick. Also if he has ECM, you want to be under that as long as possible.

The key is really to work as a team, even when someone does something a little silly. Something grossly incompetent...not so much, those are the guys you let run screaming into an embarrassing death. But if an Atlas pushes a little early, it's still often in the team's best interest to get in there as quickly as you can and support him.

Edited by Decoy3, 06 April 2014 - 01:40 AM.

[Void Angel]

Picone, on 06 April 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:

Stalker a fire support vehicle pfffffft those things are bad ass if you kit them out right. I've got a misery running 2xLLAS, 3xMLAS and an AC20 that doesn't overheat. It just kills shit and stalkers are notoriously hard to put down. Wish I knew where my ELO sat, I can pretty much guarantee there's at least four man drops on my teams at all time. I know I won't be up the top but I'm pretty sure I'm a long way from the bottom these days. Most of the time the team seems to demonstrate some sort of team play and I can't remember the last time I saw, for example, a noob texting to ask how to get rid of 3rd person view (why the **** do they make that the default anyway). I usually just try to guide the other puggers by map commands or texting and it definitely helps but it doesn't when you're trying to push through a gap in the heat of the moment. That would require either a) teamspeak (which for some reason causes my MWO client to crash) or the pugs to be paying attention which is definitely a variable

Stalkers are notoriously hard to put down - from the front. From the sides, however, it is nearly impossible for them to spread damage away from the near side torso, making them a secondary choice for leading a push. It's not that you can't brawl with them; far from it. It's that they work better when they can fight from outside the furball - even if "outside" only means 100m. That's what I mean by fire suppport. =)

However, please do me a favor and ignore the map commands. They seem like a good idea, but they obscure the map and are too slow to use for snap decisions - which often makes them counter-productive.

[SethAbercromby]

Void Angel, on 06 April 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

Stalkers are notoriously hard to put down - from the front. From the sides, however, it is nearly impossible for them to spread damage away from the near side torso, making them a secondary choice for leading a push. It's not that you can't brawl with them; far from it. It's that they work better when they can fight from outside the furball - even if "outside" only means 100m. That's what I mean by fire suppport. =)

I've got my good 'ol 5S that I like to play. LRMs and LLas for long range harassment and MLas and SRMs for short range circle of death brawls. Also Dual AMS. It's good at spearheading if it's not the only 'Mech advancing. I remember one time I flanked the enemy team together with an Atlas, dove into the fight and suddenly noticed the Atlas leaving the area in reverse. It didn't go very well, needless to say.

[Void Angel]

Q: How do you engage the reverse gear on an Assault 'Mech?

A: Shoot it with a Medium Laser. =)

But, that's my other thread. =) I really need to stop being lazy and revamp these to be more current - maybe after I get my sewer fixed...

[Void Angel]

All right! Sorry about the delay, but the newly updated guide is available as of this post.

[1453 R]

One and only time I can say 'First!' on page 19 of a thread and not be a moron.

Anyways. Listen to the Fracking Atlas Driver on this one. This advice is golden, and following the precepts here is a great way to start turning your win/loss ratio around.

I wish to add extra special emphasis to one of the Rule 4 Subrules: If You're Not Shooting, You Don't Matter. This is absolutely critical, and is something I should oughta write a specific guide for. Or convince Koniving or Void here or someone else the forum actually respects to do it.

Seriously. You’re only useful if you’re putting pressure on the enemy, and the main way for you to do that is to shoot them in the face. You can also do it by threatening a cap in Assault or Conquest, but that’s a different thing. If you’re hiding behind a rock, all nice and safe, neither giving nor receiving damage…then you may as well not be there. Your team is effectively down a ‘Mech and is far more likely to lose. Yes, there is very much such a thing as repositioning for a better angle of attack, but keep in mind – can your team afford to lose your firepower, your pressure and counterpressure, for the time it would take for you to be elsewhere? Will your guns-free repositioning leave your team hanging long enough for the enemy to get a decisive edge over the rest of your team and render your final strike meaningless?

These are decisions you need to be consciously making, and you absolutely must remember that if you’re not shooting, you’re not helping.

[Wintersdark]

Quote

• Premades, You Are Not the Fury.Understandably, premades often have low confidence in the potential performance of the rest of their team - which sometimes leads them to decide to split off on their own, or use the PuGs as cannon fodder. This is a Bad Idea: it sets up a self-fulfilling prophecy where if the PuGs perform well 8v12, the premade thinks it's turned the tide and made the difference - when in reality they just swooped in to mop up kills. If the PuGs lose the one-sided fight the Premade handed them, it's because they suck and PuGs can't be trusted. The reality is that we are all a team: see Rule Four. I've actually been on Premade teams that had this problem; once we stopped being special snowflakes and started supporting the PuGs as best we could, our win rate jumped measurably.
  
• Flockasheeping Is "Baaahd."Many times when players do stick together, they end up demonstrating the proverbial "too much of a good thing," particularly when the leaders of the push take a shot from a Medium Laser - and frantically scamble for the nearest cover. The team tends to pile up, creating confusion, blocking movement, and generally making a beautiful Artillery Strike target. You want to stay near each other, but far enough apart so that you can still shoot, move, and run from the pretty red smoke.
  
• If You're Not Shooting, You Don't Matter. Don't get me wrong here; cover exists for a reason, and it doesn't do you much good to whale away at someone 400m away with an AC/20. But if you're more interested in hiding behind that cover than you are at shooting the enemy, you're not helping the team, or yourself. Again, don't run out into the open and get plastered, but do try to maximize your time in combat. This is especially important for long-range builds when the brawlers go in: You don't want to get into the middle of the furball, but you do want to find a position on the edges of it where you can pour fire into the enemy team in support of the brawl.
  
• Damage Is Like Water. You can drown in the river, but getting a little wet won't kill you. You see, the game punishes bad positioning immediately, but rewards good tactics only later. So when a new player starts to learn how to move and shoot, he invariably leaves cover at the wrong time/place - and the half-dozen or soAC/PPC abusers skilled marksmen on the other team who can see them will light them up simultaneously, with predictable results. This leads to a phenomenon of learned helplessness in the face of incoming fire: players have been taught by the game that any time they are taking damage, they are about to die. The reality is that armor is a resource. You shouldn't waste it, but it's there to be used. Too many players assume that they should never be taking damage, to the point that I have seen a team that was literally up by six kills (9v2) still hiding from the enemy team. I will show you a more excellent way - getting a little wet won't kill you; it's time to learn to swim.

These are pure gold.

My personal favourites are the last two:

If You're Not Shooting, You Don't Matter. and Damage Is Like Water.

These go hand in hand. If you're taking some light fire - but not ALL THE FIRE - you're splitting the opposing team's damage output. Mechs, any mechs, crumple fast under concerted fire but can actually take a reasonable amount of lighter fire. Stand up, apply pressure. If everyone plays Crouching Locust, then as individual people peek to fire they eat concentrated enemy fire.

Use your guns! Lean on that fire button! Wreck some face!

When you keep pressure up, it tends to cause the opposing team to falter, to fall back. Falling back safely is hard and requires coordination, and in pug matches will almost never happen cohesively leaving you with isolated easy pickings.

[SethAbercromby]

Absolutely agree on the part of flocking too closely together. What I like to encourage is working with the lance you've been assigned, premade or not. When 3 individual lances can operate autonomously, they can act much more effectively and when the time comes to link forces, they will already know how each player responds to pressure and how to communicate most effectively within their lance and team.

Little Story of a recent battle:

Spoiler

Assault, Terra Therma.

I was running my recently acquired Misery and dropped solo into a random game. My lance consisted largely of heavier 'Mechs, all with roughly the same speed profile. I requested in lance chat to stick together as a lance and cover each other, got a fast response, we were all set. We dropped as Gamma I believe (far end on the South East), and I decided together with another lancemate to take the long route past the lava river, another stayed behind to check the usual route while the last decided to scout ahead. The one staying behind detected multiple enemies moving south, taking the bridge as usual. Me and the Lancemate moved in from behind, catching the unit off-guard. The lance closest to us moved in to engage the enemy from the front, leaving the enemy force with nowhere to escape to. Until then however, we keep the enemies busy by focusing fire on the weakest 'Mechs first to reduce firepower as quickly as possible. My Misery spent the entire fight at the front, always engaging the enemies at close range to force fire on myself and keep them engaged. As the reinforcements came in, both us and the enemies were already severely damaged from the confrontation and we managed to overwhelm the enemies without losing a single lancemate. Unfortunately, our lance was damaged too severely to repeat such a reckless maneuver again and the enemies had already reinforced their defenses in the cauldron, which had already claimed half of another lance.

In the end, we unfortunately lost the match to our indecisiveness at striking the defense position. In hindsight, not attacking at all, and instead forcing them out to fight on our terms, might have been the best strategy. However, what happened during the first engagement of our lance would have been a great example of a lance working autonomously and with trust in the other pilots to cover each other. I wish I had made a recording of that.

[Void Angel]

The problem is that autonomous lances get isolated and destroyed by concentrated forces. It's unfortunate, but true. Four guys against ten doesn't end well for the underdog - so you have to link up first, and then cooperate. The lance level doesn't really come into the game until you start doing premade VoIP-assisted teams, a subject outside the scope of this guide. Even in Conquest, it's usually better to pursue a decisive initial engagement with the entire team, then work on capping after that fight is over or stalls out.

[SethAbercromby]

Being able to work autonomously makes the lance think differently. Yes, you run the risk of being isolated if you do the wrong move, but if the team starts tripping over each other that is just as bad. Integrating yourself into the lance will help you think outside the cluster that is everyone else. They are important to achieve the goal, but a lance must be able to make the necessary decisions itself. 3 well-coordinated lances that can spread the enemy forces and engage multiple objectives at once can beat a clustered mess any day. Communication is, of course, vital for success with this method, but is not impossible in PUGs. A lot of players just want someone else to call the initiative and call the shots and/or is open to communication.

[Flaming oblivion]

Actually just to comment on the subject title, Following the atlas is usually the worst thing I can do PuGGing , I learnt not to , Rightly or wrongly PuG's are selfish they'll leave the atlas alone because he's slow so usually he gets torn up by the opposing team hopelessly outnumbered. If I stay with him that's 2 players the PuGs on our team have foolishly lost them selves.

[Void Angel]

Please actually read the guide before posting on it. You're embarrassing yourself, and violating forum policy with a non-constructive post.

[Flaming oblivion]

Was referring to the title and making a point which crossed my mind its relevant , I'm not remotely embarrassed , You get embarrassed over trivial forum posts ?

[SethAbercromby]

Flaming oblivion, on 25 April 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

Was referring to the title and making a point which crossed my mind its relevant , I'm not remotely embarrassed , You get embarrassed over trivial forum posts ?

It is still absolutely redundant and non-constructive. Read the guide, you might learn a few things, judging from your behavior.

[Wintersdark]

SethAbercromby, on 25 April 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Being able to work autonomously makes the lance think differently. Yes, you run the risk of being isolated if you do the wrong move, but if the team starts tripping over each other that is just as bad. Integrating yourself into the lance will help you think outside the cluster that is everyone else. They are important to achieve the goal, but a lance must be able to make the necessary decisions itself. 3 well-coordinated lances that can spread the enemy forces and engage multiple objectives at once can beat a clustered mess any day. Communication is, of course, vital for success with this method, but is not impossible in PUGs. A lot of players just want someone else to call the initiative and call the shots and/or is open to communication.

The problem is autonomous action as a lance is extremely difficult in a PUG match. Not because those people are bad, but because of a lack of communication and knowledge of your teammates.

It's all well and good if YOU can read your lancemates and work with them, but can they read you? Do they have any interest in that?

In a post like this, Void Angel is aiming for tips promoting good "default" PUG play. That is, actions that Just Work with random people who don't know each other and with whom you have limited communication at best.

Autonomous lance actions are amazing in 12-man teams, and somewhat useful in Conquest matches, but for Assault or Skirmish matches, you're much, much more likely to see your lance get isolated and crushed against a vastly superior force simply because there aren't multiple objectives.

(Yes, assault has bases, but it's just foolish to attack them)

[Void Angel]

SethAbercromby, on 25 April 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Being able to work autonomously makes the lance think differently. Yes, you run the risk of being isolated if you do the wrong move, but if the team starts tripping over each other that is just as bad. Integrating yourself into the lance will help you think outside the cluster that is everyone else. They are important to achieve the goal, but a lance must be able to make the necessary decisions itself. 3 well-coordinated lances that can spread the enemy forces and engage multiple objectives at once can beat a clustered mess any day. Communication is, of course, vital for success with this method, but is not impossible in PUGs. A lot of players just want someone else to call the initiative and call the shots and/or is open to communication.

Having that lance detached means several things:

• The initial engagement against a grouped team is going to be at best 12v8 - if all of your lances are decentralized, it's going to be 12v4. In either situation, you are gambling that the enemy team will not scent blood and simply roll over you before your autonomous lance(s) come to the rescue. If they have any light scouts/snipers at all, they should know that part of your forces are off somewhere else. So, splitting off your lances means that you are now dependent on a grouped enemy committing an error just in order to avoid a near-certain loss. You are literally tossing some figurative dice and hoping the enemy screws up.
  
• You are vastly more vulnerable to random mismatches if you simply go with the lances you're dealt. You have no cohesive group composition, so you likely have different roles in uncomplementary positions - such as a light-hunter grouped up on the opposite spawn from the scouts. Sure, you can make any lance-level comp work kinda-sorta-well, if you work at it. That light-hunter can just guard whatever he's with from the lights, right? Except that if the enemy grouped up and consolidated their lights, their recon elements may be murdering the LRM boats half a map away, and there's nothing the light-hunter can do but cry bitter tears, and beat their breast, saying, "If only I could have been there!"
  
• Finally, knowing that they're out by themselves will indeed affect how the lances think. It will affect their morale in a distinctly non-positive way. That 4-man getting pressured by 8-12 enemies knows that its support is several grids away. People shy away from gunfire anyway - being alone and "away from the masses

Added to these two points is a fact that I simply have to insist upon: PuGs do not communicate well or consistently - and communication is literally impossible in combat. Sure, you can duck out of combat, or snap off a terse line while you're cooling behind cover, or waiting for your AC/20 to recharge. Heck, I've hammered out endorsements to "GOOOOOO" as I ran through the enemy team desperately shielding what was left of my Battlemaster. But you simply can't expect PuG teams to communicate efficiently, consistently, or well - this is in fact the truism upon which this entire guide is based.

Take the second bullet point; I left out an important argument to use as my closing piece: there is no standard on how to use those segregated lances. Players who know each other and have practiced together can make about any composition work - but those are premades. Most players in a drop have different skill levels, playing styles, and loadouts; they also have no communication or familiarity with each other's builds and playstyles. So they're not going to be able to just decentralize and "learn to think at the lance level." It's not that simple - and it's not that possible. Every player is going to have a different idea of how to use his build, how to support and be supported by his lancemates, and how their builds should be used - and we haven't even decided where to go yet! Certainly, you get PuGs who talk, scout, and cooperate, but when you do, you notice them. They are the exception that proves the rule - and if you think back, or go over a recording, most of the cooperation is nonverbal anyway.

So asking randomly generated PuGs to operate as ad hoc lance combat teams simply isn't realistic. Instead, detaching your lances sets the team up for failure, unless the enemy detaches their lances too, or just screws up and doesn't pounce on one of your elements. This is simply gambling, and it's foolish to roll the dice when you don't have to. The simple fact of the matter is that the kind of communication, morale, and team cohesion you need to have three separate lances act as a "well-coordinated" team cannot be realistically expected in PuGs.

Follow the Fracking Atlas.