478 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Ens, on 14 January 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

"Stay together!!!!!!!!!!!!"


...is the first thing why PUGS lose to premades... because a full bulk of 8 mechs gets flanked by ppl who play together and split their team up effectively

This is ridiculous. Generally, pugs will lose to premades for a number of reasons, but being together isn't high on that list. A random group of mechs running separate has much less of a chance than that same random group together. They'll lose against a premade either way, but the grouped mechs will (hopefully) take someone with them, and feel a little less rolled.

Void Angel covers it well enough, but given random players without effective communication, sticking together is absolutely the best and most readily implemented default strategy.

[Void Angel]

They don't have to lose to the premade, either. A premade will usually win, if their tactics and coordination are good, but just slapping a 4-man together and Skyping with your buddies isn't a magic road to victory - you can still be fought, and you can still be defeated.

The best illustration of this point in my personal experience is taken from WoW - I started the game on a PvP server, Horde side. For those of you totally unfamiliar with World of Warcraft, the Horde (this was before all expansions) was nearly always outnumbered on each server. On Hakkar at the time, the Alliance population outnumbered us by about 50% - and when school let out, nearly two to one. Because of this, we had to learn to play; we had to master basic tactics, and virtually all of us were at least somewhat competent, because the ones that weren't quit the game or rerolled Alliance. The end result was that even though they outnumbered us by half an army, we would pretty regularly smash their guild premades in the PvP battlegrounds (not always, but they had to make a premade to have an even fight) and it was the Alliance who learned never to go anywhere alone in the leveling zones.

MWO doesn't have such a faction divide at this point, so there's not going be a crucible of fire to select for good players - but my point here is that while coordination helps, it is skill that matters (and also gear, but I digress.) If you understand basic tactics and how to cooperate with your team, the advantage of enemy communication is vastly diminished - past a certain point, all Skype does is make sure you're doing the right thing. Don't get me wrong, a coordinated 4-man can wreak havok on your team, and provides a distinct advantage, but just like no amount of tactics will help you if you can't shoot, no amount of communication will help you if you don't have good tactics. =)

Edited by Void Angel, 17 January 2013 - 03:41 PM.

[SilentFear]

Ravennus, on 08 January 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

This is getting absolutely painful.... I leveled up my HBK-4SP basics, and now I'm on to the 4P.... loving it so far, except for all the damn sniper and LRM boat Atlases!!

Seriously, how bad is it when all our assaults refuse to commit to a push and it's the friggin mediums and (sometimes if lucky) heavies that do it?

I often say in the beginning of the match that I'm following the big guys... only to have the ECM DDCs tell me not to, because they are LRM boats. Or worse.... ERPPC snipers with 10 single heat sinks. *sigh*


Once in a blue moon when I get a great player in an Atlas that's willing to lead the push, we win. Often easily.
That's also when I have the most fun in my hunchies... but in the last couple days it seems so rare.

Why do I have to pretend to be the Assault and get eaten alive because most of my team is scared to leave the base??

I know im probably necroing this post but i wanted to say few things.
I agree whit almost everything said in this topic so far as i'm an Atlas pilot. And most of the time i try to keep close to my team and switch target to save my lil buddys runing in my feet.

But boy it's getting old how many times i will jump in the fray and start duking it whit few large mech's just to get abandoned by my whole team. Please guys get it already - Atlas can not disengage from combat 90% of the time and even if we can - most of the time that will dmg us beyond recovery.

Also keep in mind when charging forward to the last know enemy location - that your mech is probably able to move whit 70-120 mph while our Atlases are crawling whit the whoping 46-56 mph.

And becouse of all that latley i dont over extend and try to use my gauss as much as i can before going into the fray. This way i get enoght time to see where the decisive combat is gona take place and going in to it i wont get abandoned by my team.

[Void Angel]

Oh, I don't mind input at all - assuming it's constructive, instead of personal invective leavened with unsupported statements or straw man criticisms of things I haven't said. =)

Playing sniper tag with the enemy is fine up to a point - particularly if your team is scattered and not moving with you, it's your own fault if you charge through the gap and get melted down into gift shop Urbanmech figurines. Use your words, ask people to check the tunnel or whatnot, and if they insist that cowardice is a tactic, well, just do the best you can - set up an ambush or pull back from Coward's Ridge to use the near side as a killing field. Unless players are insisting on multiple, contradictory tactics, there's usually a way to work with them, even if they're wrong.

What this guide is designed to promote is a general player culture of accepted tactical norms based on simple practicality. Since Catapults, Cataphracts, and the like are much less durable and imposing, they simply cannot lead the advance the same way an Atlas or Stalker can. This means that if you have any Assaults on your team, you need them to work together with you, and you need to work with them - by watching what they're doing and backing them up.

Edited by Void Angel, 26 January 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Red3]

Thanks to this thread I now have people lining up behind me in a single file line, and staying there.

[Wintersdark]

Better than them running off alone, at least.

[Void Angel]

Red3, on 26 January 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Thanks to this thread I now have people lining up behind me in a single file line, and staying there.

That is so not my fault. Tell them to fan out.

Edited by Void Angel, 26 January 2013 - 11:53 AM.

[Ursh]

Void Angel, on 24 January 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Oh, I don't mind input at all - assuming it's constructive, instead of personal invective leavened with unsupported statements or straw man criticisms of things I haven't said. =)

Playing sniper tag with the enemy is fine up to a point - particularly if your team is scattered and not moving with you, it's your own fault if you charge through the gap and get melted down into gift shop Urbanmech figurines. Use your words, ask people to check the tunnel or whatnot, and if they insist that cowardice is a tactic, well, just do the best you can - set up an ambush or pull back from Coward's Ridge to use the near side as a killing field. Unless players are insisting on multiple, contradictory tactics, there's usually a way to work with them, even if they're wrong.

What this guide is designed to promote is a general player culture of accepted tactical norms based on simple practicality. Since Catapults, Cataphracts, and the like are much less durable and imposing, they simply cannot lead the advance the same way an Atlas or Stalker can. This means that if you have any Assaults on your team, you need them to work together with you, and you need to work with them - by watching what they're doing and backing them up.

Great points.
Basic functionality as a PUG, nothing sophisticated or condescending, just solid advice on tactics.

[MagicHamsta]

Wintersdark, on 16 January 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Generally, pugs will lose to premades for a number of reasons, but being together isn't high on that list. A random group of mechs running separate has much less of a chance than that same random group together. They'll lose against a premade either way, but the grouped mechs will (hopefully) take someone with them, and feel a little less rolled.

Me must be an exception because me routinely defeat premades or at the very least, take a few of them with me.
The trick be to realize that all noobs basically play the same way: terribly.

As a hamster who employs the noob power rather than the skill, me simply use this to me advantage by placing them in situations where me can harvest their noob energies & use it to defeat the enemy team. Also me noticed that many people lack the ability to tell apart terrible players. Me simply write them off as dead & plan accordingly.

1) Everyone scatters? Go find the weakpoint(s) of the enemy & use the distraction to the advantage. (Mayhaps their formation leaves the longer ranged/heavy hitters exposed for me to attack or even better, mayhaps the enemy will scatter as well.)
2) Teammates be terrible LRM boats/"snipers"? They also make excellent bait. (Sooner or later, a light/med or something fast will try to go for them.)
3) Team running away? Wait until they realize their true calling as the cannon fodder.

[Void Angel]

Hee-hee.

[Phoenix Gray]

Atriedes, on 21 December 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

Now if only I could up my kills instead of scoring all my c-bills through spotting and assists....

"A good wingman is a pearl beyond price." Ancient Liao proverb.

"I'd rather have a good wingman watching my *** than a Liao Philosopher. " Wisdom of the Phoenix Grays

[Phoenix Gray]

Fut, on 14 January 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

I might just be a bit out of it, but how can people focus on the Atlas' Targets if we don't know exactly who he's targeting?
,
Hence:

Shoot at the explosions.

[Void Angel]

Heheh.

[Flashback37]

Follow the frakking Atlas.

This has become my new mantra.
But I don't stay right behind him, My Hunchie is a little faster so i range back and forth, covering the flanks and keeping my eyes open. Still learning, but I'm surviving the match more and getting lots of assists. Until the furball really gets hot, us little guys need to LOOK AROUND more. Far too many times Ive seen other pugs blindly rush off or follow like a puppy, paying no attention to anything but the mech they are tagging after.

[Hauser]

That's the way to play a HBK. Well done.

[Draxa]

hauser, I love that quote "There is no god but Atlai and Hunchback is his prophet."
I have just recently gotten into playing my hunchies (having a grand time with them), and that is the perfect quote for my current playstyle

What I really love doing, is ranging a few hundred meters from the atlas, attract some enemy attention, and lure the solo enemy to the atlas, and seeing the enemy try to backpedal.
I also like smashing the squirrels that try to chew on my Atlas friends feet. Meanie squirrels!

Edited by Draxa, 01 February 2013 - 02:28 PM.

[Void Angel]

Being able to smack around lights now feels really, really good. And now I'm seeing (anecdotally, of course) a noticeable rise in Centurion and Dragon pilots with a correspondingly smaller number of light chassis. Which, if my observations are correct, tells you what role lights with skill shields the old netcode were filling.

[Warskull]

Ens, on 14 January 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

"Stay together!!!!!!!!!!!!"


...is the first thing why PUGS lose to premades... because a full bulk of 8 mechs gets flanked by ppl who play together and split their team up effectively

No, you completely misunderstand the situation. Teamwork wins games, 8 mans have way more teamwork than PuGs. They also have more effective players. A chunk of that PuG will be dead weight that struggles to pull down 100 damage.

Stay together and follow the Atlas is one of the simplest strategies to execute and will get some basic teamwork out of a PuG. Advanced strategies are nice, but PuGs simple lack the communication and manpower to execute them. In PuGland, most likely 2-4 players on each team are carrying the team and deciding the game.

The PuG will lose to the 8 man unless the 8 man is awful. If they don't group up they will lose even faster as the 8 man isolates and kills each mech.

Edited by Warskull, 02 February 2013 - 07:13 PM.

[RLBell]

Void Angel, on 27 December 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Even if the Atlas pilot is a complete scrub newbie who has trouble simply pointing the mech in the right direction, you still want to back him up - in fact, you want to be more aggressive in that case, because you only have that small window that everyone's shooting at him instead of you before he immolates himself in a cloud of shame and fire. Once he's gone, that's one less (and maybe your only) assault mech to actually go toe to toe with their hitters; if all you have left is fire support and medium brawlers, your group will have to scatter before their assault mechs or die - and that makes focusing your fires a lot more difficult. In short, playing 73h $|\|1P@R, camping by yourself at long range, and just hitting whatever happens to expose itself all game is wrong; cowardice is not a tactic, and while sniping is useful, you need to be willing and positioned to get stuck in with the Atlas when the time comes.

The only time hanging back and sniping is wrong is when you have no targets. Once you see no targets move to where you have some. If you luck out to be unengaged while everyone is fighting in the river, enjoy sniper hog heaven.

[Void Angel]

Not quite. See, there's a very important principle which has held true throughout the history of warfare, and is actually even more noticeable with modern (or futuristic) weapons - firepower is more effective when massed. That's why we've always used massed formations for ranged weapons in particular, from arrows to muskets to modern artillery. There's an excellent explanation in one of the other tactics guides on this forum, but to sum it up, the more firepower you can bring to bear on any one target at any given time, the faster that target dies - therefore doing less damage to you in return. This means that focusing your fires, when possible, is always a good thing.

Of course, if there ARE no focused engagements going on, sniping is a great way to pass the time - not only does it damage the enemy before the pivotal engagement, but it allows you to project control over part of the battlefield, limiting enemy movement. The problem I'm seeing (and which I describe in the post quoted) is that some people will sit back and snipe all game - unless physically forced to move by enemy attack or a continuous lack of targets.

This is bad tactics for a simple reason - you're accepting sub-optimal effects on target in exchange for safety. Sniping is great, especially with the ER and PPC buffs this patch - but that makes it even more important to snipe properly. You shouldn't be leaving cover to brawl as a sniper unless you have to - I know this very well. But you should plan ahead and make sure you're positioning yourself along the edges of the fight so that you can back up the brawlers when they go in. Basically, you need to pay attention to your positioning in relation to known enemy positions and your own team. Far, far too often, snipers will scatter out along Coward's Ridge (for example) and then can't mass their fires when the rest of the team goes in with a focused charge or flanking attack - or when when the enemy does the same to us.

So I'm not down on sniping - I'm down on being so focused on that role that you engage in... sub-optimal behaviors.

Edited by Void Angel, 10 February 2013 - 09:58 PM.