52 replies to this topic

[Alistair Steiner]

I'm also a fan of the idea of a compromise. I liked the "PUT ANYTHING ANYWHERE" aspect of MW3, but suddenly you could have a missile-boat Annihilator. That's not right... Well, I take that back, you could, since it's an Omni-'Mech (I think). The point is, Clan 'Mechs (in the fiction) weren't just better because their weapons had longer range with more damage and weighed less, but because they were Omni-'Mechs. I really don't want "Omni-'Mech" to just be fluff anymore. I want frustrating IS 'Mechs with limited customization options (but still with enough to make a 'Mech your own), then the advent of the Clans and the development of Omni-'Mechs. That's why the Bushwacker is a landmark 'Mech.

But still, even with the Omni-'Mechs, I prefer the relative retention of flavor. Annihilators should be ballistic bruisers. Vultures should be their own personal missile boats. Maybe hard-points on weapons, then extra criticals for electronics/etc? Just my thought on the issue.

EDIT: MWLL has the weapons very clearly take the place of visuals. So the dual-PPC Catapult is an option (since the MechLab isn't running yet, and we currently pick from ~6 variants), and though it surprised me at first, I grew to accept it, since PPCs weren't shooting from its missile racks. I certainly don't want to be restricted to variants, but the MWLL idea for the MechLab looks good. I'll edit if I can find the video.

Edited by Alistair Steiner, 04 November 2011 - 01:45 PM.

[Captain Nice HD]

A big part of the problem with totally unrestricted customization is that the differences between the various 'Mech chassis become largely cosmetic, and most everyone inevitably winds up playing as whatever 'Mech that has the smallest hitbox for the given tonnage. Which is a shame in a setting that includes hundreds of different types of 'Mechs, before you even get into individual variants even.

[gregsolidus]

Or which ever one looks coolest to the player in question.I just don't like the thought of mechs being semi-shoehorned into roles,it just doesn't feel right for some reason.

Edited by gregsolidus, 04 November 2011 - 01:52 PM.

[Stormwolf]

TheRulesLawyer, on 04 November 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

Customization is only a hallmark of the video game. Actually battletech is far more restrictive and all mech labs failed in one way or another.

1) I don't want to see mechs reduced to gun cabinets of varying sizes
2) customization should not be trivial both in in game cost and in real world time to complete
3) there should be an on going penalty for using a non-stock mech. It is both not as reliable and more expensive to repair.
4) omni mech need to retain their status as the *** you can switch loadouts! mechs.

Aside from that I have severe reservations about the game balance implications of an unrestricted mechlab. People invariable want it so they can do min/max muchkin mechs.

I know mechlab is a big part of why some people like mechwarrior. I love tinkering with mechs too. However I think custom mechs should be largely limited to a solaris 7 arena. It could be an anything goes place, and even fits canon better. The regular persistent game would be TRO mechs and their variants.

The more thought I put into it the more I think that you're right with one minor twist.

Lots of elite units have custom configs like Berith and his crew.

I wouldn't want to completely take away the mechlab, but I have a idea that will keep the game balanced.

My new suggestion, get the complete tabletop mechlab with all its options.

The player would be given the option to play training missions against AI opponents, during these training missions the player can pick any custom config he/she created.

The multiplayer game would be a different beast altogether, you would need to earn your custom config. A mission in service of a house could reap a special reward, you could import one of your custom configs into the game. But beware, you won't be able to replace it if its destroyed.

[rollermint]

Alistair Steiner, on 04 November 2011 - 01:39 PM, said:

I'm also a fan of the idea of a compromise. I liked the "PUT ANYTHING ANYWHERE" aspect of MW3, but suddenly you could have a missile-boat Annihilator. That's not right... Well, I take that back, you could, since it's an Omni-'Mech (I think). The point is, Clan 'Mechs (in the fiction) weren't just better because their weapons had longer range with more damage and weighed less, but because they were Omni-'Mechs. I really don't want "Omni-'Mech" to just be fluff anymore. I want frustrating IS 'Mechs with limited customization options (but still with enough to make a 'Mech your own), then the advent of the Clans and the development of Omni-'Mechs. That's why the Bushwacker is a landmark 'Mech. But still, even with the Omni-'Mechs, I prefer the relative retention of flavor. Annihilators should be ballistic bruisers. Vultures should be their own personal missile boats. Maybe hard-points on weapons, then extra criticals for electronics/etc? Just my thought on the issue. EDIT: MWLL has the weapons very clearly take the place of visuals. So the dual-PPC Catapult is an option (since the MechLab isn't running yet, and we currently pick from ~6 variants), and though it surprised me at first, I grew to accept it, since PPCs weren't shooting from its missile racks. I certainly don't want to be restricted to variants, but the MWLL idea for the MechLab looks good. I'll edit if I can find the video.

What he said.

All mechs should retain some individual and unique flair or else the game will very quickly degenerate into a min-maxing affair where only a few types of mechs will be played and the rest discarded as redundant, gimped and useless for competitive play.

[fakey]

I'm on the boat of having some sort of compromise, I've been playing mechwarrior games since MW2 and I've played the table top a fair amount of times as well and while yes the table top does allow for a huge amount of customization how often do you actually see that happen? Typically you're fielding stock mechs or one of several popular variants as completely custom made mechs are extremely rare.

I think the MW4 hardpoint system (after Mektek got ahold of it) is a good one as not only will it make selecting a mech that much more meaningful of a decision for the player, it will also ensure that we see more of a variety of mechs on the battlefield. That isn't to say that the system can't be improved at all, but for the purposes of creating a balanced MMO that will definitely contain PvP I think this is the best decision.

[gregsolidus]

Out of curiosity do you mean extremely rare in universe or when actually playing TT.

[Tannhauser Gate]

MW3's lab was fun but from a canon point of view it was a disaster. It was a virtual candy store where you could put any weapon on any section of the body and its ammo clear across on the other side. It wasnt thought out well. Essentially every mech was an omni boat and TRO was completely ignored. MW4's lacked most of the great equipment while also ensuring that most mechs were boats.

I favor making mechs TRO balanced with some customization (hard point is fine if balanced properly). I favor loads of equipment options MW4 never had. And I favor house specific load outs and regional weapons and mechs where other types are rare. Otherwise, once again, everyone's a boat.

[IS Wolf]

Heatsink Junkie, on 04 November 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

so I could for example, if something allong the lines of the mw2/mw3/rpg system is used, spend 50 of my hundrate tonnes in an atlas on armour as usial, but then put a 49 tonn engine in, (got to have heatsinks) and somehow end up with a fast, armoured atlas?

Well, if you consider 64.8 km/h speedy.
Biggest engine you can plunk into an Atlas weighs 52.5T.
And even the biggest Extra Light engine, which weighs in at 26.5T will not help you any further in the speed department. You would have to resort to a MASC unit to go faster. But that can have some nasty side effects.
And even then you're looking at a max speed of 86.4 km/h, in exchange for 5T and 5 crits.

Anyway, the MW4 Mechlab is just plum useless.
It does not stop boating and it actually makes recreating canon designs impossible.

It just does not make sense to adhere to a system, that not only fails to solve a problem, but only creates more problems instead.

Alistair Steiner, on 04 November 2011 - 01:39 PM, said:

I'm also a fan of the idea of a compromise. I liked the "PUT ANYTHING ANYWHERE" aspect of MW3, but suddenly you could have a missile-boat Annihilator. That's not right... Well, I take that back, you could, since it's an Omni-'Mech (I think).

It is not an Omni-Mech. Star League design City Defense Assault Class Battlemech, nothing more. Consider it an Urbie's big cousin if you will.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Biggest engine you can put into an Atlas is 154.5T (500-rated XXL).
Oh wait, the 'Mech can handle only 100T, guess we're stuck at a 400-rated engine.
Also, an Atlas can carry only 19½T of standard armour.
Going with hardened armour, we're up at 38½T, and a reduction in speed.
So 19½T+26½T=43T, add other internals, and we're at 37T remaining, unless you go with Endo-Steel (+5T), XL Gyro (+2T), Ferro-Fibrous (+2T), etc. And suddenly we're wondering how we can spend all that tonnage with only 11 crits remaining. Throw in MASC and a Supercharger (*now* we got a fast Atlas at 108 Km/h), and we've got tonnage, but no room.

[Rodney28021]

we'll just have to wait for the game to release and find out how it plays.

[Blackfire1]

Love how people are using the Search function.

[Heldar1]

You know, I was wondering why a bunch of dead topics were starting to surface again.. didn't think bout people using the search function lol