65 replies to this topic

[Irvine]

Do the people who are complaining about sync drops and premades notice the real reason why they occur? The 8-man metagame is very wonky and broken. It is about who can field the most altai with Raven 3L support. the 5xDDC+3x3L seems to be the king of OP/Cheese/Broken teams. If that was fixed we wouldn't have to sync drop to get all 8 into a game. Also what if you have 5 on TS? Who loses?

P.S. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

[Thirdstar]

Irvine, on 21 December 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

Do the people who are complaining about sync drops and premades notice the real reason why they occur? The 8-man metagame is very wonky and broken. It is about who can field the most altai with Raven 3L support. the 5xDDC+3x3L seems to be the king of OP/Cheese/Broken teams. If that was fixed we wouldn't have to sync drop to get all 8 into a game. Also what if you have 5 on TS? Who loses?

P.S. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

So the real reason is that they can't hack it in 8vs8. Ah, I believe that's what the community likes to refer to as a L2Play issue.

[Irvine]

Thirdstar, on 21 December 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

So the real reason is that they can't hack it in 8vs8. Ah, I believe that's what the community likes to refer to as a L2Play issue.

I guess you haven't done a lot of 8v8? Also check your double standard on L2Play because it seems the only ones who can say that are PUGS. But God forbid anyone tells the PUGS to L2Play!

Note: I PUG and Premade. I learned how to play PUGGING. I lived the Pug-life. I pugged through the LRM/Artemis debacle. I can see both sides of the fence. The reason i joined a "premade" is because i wanted to become more serious about the game. I do find it frustrating that i have to stoop to answer the horde that ******* about everything.

[Thirdstar]

Irvine, on 21 December 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

I guess you haven't done a lot of 8v8? Also check your double standard on L2Play because it seems the only ones who can say that are PUGS. But God forbid anyone tells the PUGS to L2Play!

Note: I PUG and Premade. I learned how to play PUGGING. I lived the Pug-life. I pugged through the LRM/Artemis debacle. I can see both sides of the fence. The reason i joined a "premade" is because i wanted to become more serious about the game. I do find it frustrating that i have to stoop to answer the horde that ******* about everything.

Oooo you get all snippy when the shoe's on the other foot. Did I hit a nerve? Did you defend all those people who were told to L2P when complaining about the matchmaking?

Edited by Thirdstar, 21 December 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[Irvine]

Thirdstar, on 21 December 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Oooo you get all snippy when the shoe's on the other foot. Did I hit a nerve?

Answer a point that I made and i wouldnt get snippy. See I'm stooping again.

[Bishop Steiner]

Zylo, on 21 December 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

As I understand it some players don't want to deal with the unrestricted 8vs8 matches so that's their excuse for sync-dropping into the small group + lone wolf matches.

Location of the servers means nothing (I think they are in Canada?) the same type of player will continue to use this sort of "exploit" as long as they can get away with it. Nationalities of the players don't matter, I suspect there might be some connection to player age but even that may not be true.

I got no issues with folks not liking the current 8 man set up. IMO< it is rather boring, and conducive to a few set team/mech types. Win or Lose, I just find it tedious to have to run certain stuff every match to have a win. We have what, 50 Mechs and variants to choose from, and the "serious" * mans usually run 3-4 of them.

So yeah. Boring.

On the other hand, fine, I drop in the 4 man/PUG que. But I only do it as a PUG or part of a 4 man. There is NO excuse, and the sync farmers know it, for dropping 4x2 sync drops. Wanna play with your buddies? Take turns.

But you damn well know you are really doing it for the easy wins.

[Thirdstar]

Irvine, on 21 December 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Answer a point that I made and i wouldnt get snippy. See I'm stooping again.

Fine i'll answer your 'point'. It IS in fact a L2P issue because there are hardcore gamers who are doing quite fine in 8vs8 without using the ECM crutch. The issue is that the people who were Pugstomping severely overestimated their own skills and then paid for it when matched against 8 other players who actually knew what they were doing.

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

On the other hand, fine, I drop in the 4 man/PUG que. But I only do it as a PUG or part of a 4 man. There is NO excuse, and the sync farmers know it, for dropping 4x2 sync drops. Wanna play with your buddies? Take turns.

But you damn well know you are really doing it for the easy wins.

I'm amazed at the number of sync droppers who actually defend this practice. Takes a complete lack of self awareness to do that.

[Bishop Steiner]

Thirdstar, on 21 December 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Fine i'll answer your 'point'. It IS in fact a L2P issue because there are hardcore gamers who are doing quite fine in 8vs8 without using the ECM crutch. The issue is that the people who were Pugstomping severely overestimated their own skills and then paid for it when matched against 8 other players who actually knew what they were doing.



I'm amazed at the number of sync droppers who actually defend this practice. Takes a complete lack of self awareness to do that.

There is SOME truth to this, but like most generalizations being made here, only some. I averaged about 50% wins in 8 man. (Though I haven't had a chance to try it in conquest yet. Can say, Conquest is near pointless in most pug drops I have done. It still ends with kill kill kill, lol.)

There are those like me, who just found the min/maxing boring. Add a weighted system, with like a +/- 15% randomizer? I would probably be back pretty quick. And I bet some of the "uber-skilled" 6 Atlai units out there, will likewise find their egos knocked down a few pegs when they find that is all they get to drop against.

Me? I like anything that makes running my Centurions purposeful again.

[Thirdstar]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

There is SOME truth to this, but like most generalizations being made here, only some. I averaged about 50% wins in 8 man. (Though I haven't had a chance to try it in conquest yet. Can say, Conquest is near pointless in most pug drops I have done. It still ends with kill kill kill, lol.)

There are those like me, who just found the min/maxing boring. Add a weighted system, with like a +/- 15% randomizer? I would probably be back pretty quick. And I bet some of the "uber-skilled" 6 Atlai units out there, will likewise find their egos knocked down a few pegs when they find that is all they get to drop against.

Me? I like anything that makes running my Centurions purposeful again.

True, it is a bit of generalization, but the overall trend is valid. And I suspect that a LOT of people did overestimate their skills. The matchmaker itself is also not really ideal of course and encourages munchkin setups.

I also agree wholeheartedly about Conquest, a smart PUG or premade team will always go for annihilating the opposing team because that's the path of least resistance. If the resource counter doubled its speed then we would possibly see a more tactical battle, it's really too slow to do that at the moment.

Edited by Thirdstar, 21 December 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[Irvine]

Thirdstar, on 21 December 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Fine i'll answer your 'point'. It IS in fact a L2P issue because there are hardcore gamers who are doing quite fine in 8vs8 without using the ECM crutch. The issue is that the people who were Pugstomping severely overestimated their own skills and then paid for it when matched against 8 other players who actually knew what they were doing.

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

I got no issues with folks not liking the current 8 man set up. IMO< it is rather boring, and conducive to a few set team/mech types. Win or Lose, I just find it tedious to have to run certain stuff every match to have a win. We have what, 50 Mechs and variants to choose from, and the "serious" * mans usually run 3-4 of them.

So yeah. Boring.

On the other hand, fine, I drop in the 4 man/PUG que. But I only do it as a PUG or part of a 4 man. There is NO excuse, and the sync farmers know it, for dropping 4x2 sync drops. Wanna play with your buddies? Take turns.

But you damn well know you are really doing it for the easy wins.

Which one of you is right? Yes you can win w/o cheese team, that is what I prefer to play. However this is not the rule, this is the exception that makes it. You cannot deny the fact that there are top tier mechs and top tier groupings. Again I ask do you do 8v8? What is your preferred method of countering the 4+D-DC cap rush?


EDIT: A weighted system would help solve this. Even If you received a couple more "Failed to Find a Match", it would be ok.

Edited by Irvine, 21 December 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[Thirdstar]

Irvine, on 21 December 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Which one of you is right? Yes you can win w/o cheese team, that is what I prefer to play. However this is not the rule, this is the exception that makes it. You cannot deny the fact that there are top tier mechs and top tier groupings. Again I ask do you do 8v8? What is your preferred method of countering the 4+D-DC cap rush?


EDIT: A weighted system would help solve this. Even If you received a couple more "Failed to Find a Match", it would be ok.

I don't play 8v8, but hypothetically I would counter 4+D-DC cap rush by being on Vassago Rain's team. They don't seem to have much issue with it, you should PM him about strategies.

[Irvine]

Thirdstar, on 21 December 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

I don't play 8v8, but hypothetically I would counter 4+D-DC cap rush by being on Vassago Rain's team. They don't seem to have much issue with it, you should PM him about strategies.

Well at least your honest even if we don't agree on parts of the game. Thanks for that at least.

[Sean von Steinike]

Irvine, on 21 December 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

Do the people who are complaining about sync drops and premades notice the real reason why they occur? The 8-man metagame is very wonky and broken. It is about who can field the most altai with Raven 3L support. the 5xDDC+3x3L seems to be the king of OP/Cheese/Broken teams. If that was fixed we wouldn't have to sync drop to get all 8 into a game. Also what if you have 5 on TS? Who loses?

P.S. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

If the 8 mans are ******** and ruin their fun by bringing the same trash to every match, that's their fault. No one forces them to field that mix. Are the elites too damn stupid to see they are ruining their own fun orare their precious stats more important to them than fun?

[Thirdstar]

Sean von Steinike, on 21 December 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

If the 8 mans are ******** and ruin their fun by bringing the same trash to every match, that's their fault. No one forces them to field that mix. Are the elites too damn stupid to see they are ruining their own fun orare their precious stats more important to them than fun?

Short, snide answer: Yes.

Long, thoughtful answer: because humans are humans, and when presented with short term gains versus long term effects they will always tunnel vision towards the path of least resistance.

[LarkinOmega]

Thirdstar, on 21 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Let me redo the math a little since you're so fond of it. Your group has a sync success rate of 1/4. Several other players have stated in this and other threads that it is much much more reliable than that if you know what you're doing and/or drop during offpeak hours.

So lets say the rate in my scenario is 3/4.

1st game, 8 Stomped PUGs

2nd game, 8 Stomped PUGs

3rd game, 8 Stomped PUGs

4th game even teams on both sides, enjoyable match (With the caveat that your team that 'can barely restrain from shooting allies' doesn't TK some poor PUGs for ruining your 'fun' then points will have to be deducted)

24 unhappy PUGs, 8 Happy premades, 8 lucky PUGs. Say you have 8 more games with similar results, the numbers are now 72 unhappy PuGs, 8 Happy premades and 24 lucky PuGs. My math is just as valid as yours based on what other Sync droppers have reported.

Also what's stopping you from getting a few people from the unofficial TS servers to fill out your team for 8vs8? I was told very often that if I didn't like being stomped I should go make some friends and/or get on the TS server. What's stopping you from doing the same?

"Honestly, I really don't see a problem with sync dropping." how about some tiny bit of pride? or are wins, KDR and Cbills your only concern?

I was relating to you what actually happens, during peak hours (since that's when we have that many people online) and doing it correctly. And since you're continuing to make unfounded attacks aimed at my enormous e-manhood, how about I whip it out for all to see.

I'm currently saving for my last Stalker to complete my set. I've Mastered Hunchbacks and Atlas'. I Mastered the DDC pre-ECM, I've also never run with premium. So what does this prove? That I'm uber? Hardly, those are just slightly above average. It proves that no matter your hyperbole, when it comes down to it, some of us actually know what we are talking about. And some of us do not.

There are people who just play. There are groups who socialize, and would rather drop together or against each other. Some of these people are good players, some are not. Some don't lie and present facts, some like to stretch the truth to "Strengthen" their argument. In the end it all comes down to this:

Lasers, Autocannons and Missiles.

It's your drop Mechwarrior, mount up.

[Belkor]

LarkinOmega, on 21 December 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

So coming from a group that sync drops to try and get our 5-7 playing together, or our 9+ in the same match to shoot each other (srsly, we rarely have exactly 8 on, very annoying), the success rate is very low.

1/4 if you're piloting proper mechs (aka heavies in 1 group lights in the other). You can get it down to 1/2 if you've got two groups piloting the same weight classes, but that's usually on the other team. Which is exactly what this solution wants.

Honestly, it's not premade sync drops that are the problem. They're rather fun to fight against, since they're usually not all ECM mechs (like the 8 mans) and they aren't usually super serious. In fact, I can count on one hand the number of times I think I've faced off against a synced group. And one of those was just now (bunch of LRMs with a good scout, when I charged them at short range they worked together decently well from what I could tell, so probably on comms), my side lost, but we killed two and I got 600+ damage so a decent payout was had.

The problem is the lack of skill for most of the playerbase. New players, troll players, people who don't understand the system, or just people who are really bad, they're the majority of the playerbase, they're the super majority of the Lone Wolf portion. That's just the way it is, and the way it will always be. So if the otherside is skilled at all, a general drop is going to get run over. This will never, ever, ever change. You can keep playing and get better, or quit and never get better. Or whine on the forums that the system is broken, or this weapon system is OP, or that mechs are invincible (yes the netcode is terrible, but you can learn to shoot around it), in the end, it is YOU that has to improve, or nothing will change.

Mount up Mechwarrior, it's your turn to drop.

Rushin Roulette, on 21 December 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

You really did not read his post at all did you? Go back and read the first and second paragraphs again. The drop/success rate is very low.

First, youve got to be able to drop in the same match (Sometimes very dificult as this is probably the same as trying coordinated 8v8 matches against a second full 8 player team).

Secondly, once you do manage to land in the same match, it is not guaranteed that you will also automatically land on the same team. Mostly this isnt even wished for (eg. the comment on getting 9 players in the same game which would be impossible on one team) as many want to play against each other , but cant field a full 8 player team because they only have 5-7 players.

Until you can 100% tell if your opponents are all in premades, then whining that PGI should nerf players who are better than you is pointless. These threads have been around since before the Matchmaker phase 1 was implemented. A developer even posted his findings on how many premades he faced while pugging back then... the result was, out of about 20 games he was aginst full 8 man premades in only aproximately 25% of those matches, but still lost around 50% of the overall matches. Not every match against 8 player premades was a loss either.

The drop success rate being low does not justify allowing these sync drops to happen. The very same reasons why the 8 man pug stompers were taken out. Premades gets the advantage of well equipped mechs, experienced players and coordination against new players in trial mechs. Pugs only have a chance at coordination here.

Here is some basic business logic: the 8 man pug stompers ruin the experience of many players for their own personal gain. A cost of the majority for the benefit of the minority. The 8 man death squads were absolutely harmful to this game.

[Zylo]

Belkor, on 21 December 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

The drop success rate being low does not justify allowing these sync drops to happen. The very same reasons why the 8 man pug stompers were taken out. Premades gets the advantage of well equipped mechs, experienced players and coordination against new players in trial mechs. Pugs only have a chance at coordination here.

Here is some basic business logic: the 8 man pug stompers ruin the experience of many players for their own personal gain. A cost of the majority for the benefit of the minority. The 8 man death squads were absolutely harmful to this game.

Looking at the past in closed beta when a group of 8 just dropped against anything the matchmaker could find it was a much smaller group of players that were generally around the same skill level. There were fewer serious complaints about matchmaker as more testing was being done during this phase of beta.

Later the matchmaker matched mech weight classes. Most of us didn't think about it, formed up an 8-player pre-made group and launched. Getting near the end of closed beta the 8-player pre-made group vs 8x lone-wolf players issue became a serious problem.

This was enough of a problem that PGI changed the matchmaker to only allow 4-player drops for phase 1 matchmaker changes. The 8-player pre-made teams were upset they could no longer drop as a full team of only their players. Soon there were teams starting to sync-drop together so they could still play as a group. It didn't take long for other players to figure out that dropping 2x 4-player groups could result in a much better chance of winning vs taking their 4-player group + 4 random lone-wolf players.

Later with phase 2 many teams were ready to go back to 8vs8 fights. The unrestricted drops discouraged many from playing as most teams were used to facting weight matched teams.

Some of these teams now sync-drop into the small group matches saying that they want to play weight matched games. While I can understand this it doesn't change the fact that they are very likely not against another sync-dropped team of 8 but instead might be against 8 lone-wolf players or a small group + lone wolves. It is still just as damaging to the game having these teams sync-drop as it is when other teams sync-drop for the easy wins.

Some 8vs8 teams seem to want weight matching and I agree that this should at least be an option for those who want it as it may help with the sync-drop issues. I guess I didn't expect the unrestricted drops to create so many issues with players avoiding organized 8vs8 drops.

[Thirdstar]

LarkinOmega, on 21 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

...............snip

Did you actually have a point in that rambling mess you call a post? What does your personal stats have to do with the PUG player experience and/or sync dropping being utterly against the spirit of changes made by PGI to the matchmaker? Where's correlation/causation of anything you typed out in your post?

Your original assertion was that you see no issue with sync dropping, myself and other players have pointed out in this thread and others what's wrong with it and you continue to dodge it while talking about your personal W/L. Heck, read Zylo's post before mine. He presents the argument far better than I was able to.

[LarkinOmega]

My point is that I am an average player. If you recall Thirdstar, you attempted to support your opinions basing it off of my unknown stats. So I provided them, and therefore I'm sorry I've removed your primary argument.

As an average player, playing in an average group, who have played against Sync drops with both losses and wins, I, and the others in my group, see no problem with the system as it is right now. Are we annoyed with the 4+4 teams trying to get easy wins. Sure, but what is our solution?

To become better players. If everyone just tried to get better instead of coming on here and complaining so many of the problems would fall by the wayside.

I do agree that Zylo has made a much better argument than you have Thirdstar. The problem is that it is not as damaging as people think. If I can go back to my former example, I can point it out.

1/4 Sync drop, 8 negative experiences
1/4 On opposite teams, 8 positive experiences
1/4 Separate matches, 8 positive experiences, 16 Neutral (normal 4 mans)
1/4 Separate matches vs sync Drops, 8 Neutral experiences

Yes, we do drop against synced teams. We make sure that they don't get the easy win they are expecting whenever possible. Yes we do face off with them about that often. For my group, and other groups who just simply want to play with their friends more often than not, sync dropping is not a problem and is a net GAIN for the game. Even the numbers above are incorrect as the Separate matches happens more often than any of the others, but I decided to go easy with the math.

The primary question that I need to ask now, is why are the losing teams so upset now? The payouts accurately reflect what you were able to contribute to the match. On losses I can usually get between 40 and 70k, which is quite a bit more than losses from before the patch, and is sometimes more than what I would get on wins in which I died. If you're going to make arguments about stat hounds, that's really the only reason to get upset on a loss if you did your best in a match. And if you didn't do your best, you can only be upset at yourself.

So what exactly is the problem with the sync dropping? The outlier stat hounds playing during slow hours trying to grind win after win. It makes people sad to get a loss on their stats, even though comparatively they're making more per match these days, and the stats are private, and realistically don't matter. I do agree that these people are annoying, but they're not everyone who sync drops, not by a long shot. And sync dropping is not driving everyone away from the game, the people who are leaving probably would have left anyway.

[Wired]

I can't wait to see what anti-premades complain about next!