233 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Helbourne, on 11 January 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

War is not a zero sum game. You want to win a war you do not go looking for balanced fights. You want to out number and out tech your enemy if possible. Clan tech cannot equal IS tech. Clan tech is supposed to be more advanced. If you make Clan tech equal IS tech why even bother. With all this balance talk, the devs should just rename weapons and boom you got your balance.

If this game is only ever going to be team deathmatch with a dash of various goals, then i guess go ahead 'balance' away. Make everything equal. Zero sum it up.

IF this game is going to a real warfare game, where you have to decide which planets to take control of, then Clan tech cannot equal IS tech. It has to be better. Pick your battles. Do not attack the planet that has 1,000 Clan mechs on it. Attack that one that is lightly defended, one that only has 1,000 construction mechs on it.

We're nor having a war, we're playing a game. It may try to simulate a "war", but the fact is - playing imbalanced matches is not fun. You would have to fundamentally change the entire game (possibly more than community warfare would do) to make imbalanced matches interesting for players.

[Joseph Mallan]

Viper69, on 21 December 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

A few words..."battle value matchmaker"

I have seen 4 Stone Rhinos loaded with 3 Gauss and 12 MGs have a BV low enough to have been in a 10,000 BV Trinary with 1G/1P.

BV is broken... BV2 is not much better.

[Moonsavage]

Matchmaker should bias weight - as in 4 x IS = 3 x Clan

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 12 January 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

We're nor having a war, we're playing a game. It may try to simulate a "war", but the fact is - playing imbalanced matches is not fun. You would have to fundamentally change the entire game (possibly more than community warfare would do) to make imbalanced matches interesting for players.

Though you are right, The scenario packs with Clan forces were not well balanced, But simulated the battles well.

[Viper69]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 January 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

I have seen 4 Stone Rhinos loaded with 3 Gauss and 12 MGs have a BV low enough to have been in a 10,000 BV Trinary with 1G/1P.

BV is broken... BV2 is not much better.

BV is infinitely better than a tonnage system or a weight class system.

[Kaspirikay]

Its not really fun fighting 3 on 1. If IS wins, clanner can say he was outnumbered. If clanner wins, he can say IS sucks. Though i have to admit, i rather not rely on teammates. I'd prob roll a clan mech if it means less teammates to deal with.

[Carnivoris]

The clans are supposed to be OP. That's the whole point. If the clan mechs weren't so powerful, the invasion wouldn't be as big a deal. Plus, it lets us salvage clan tech from destroyed clan mechs.

[Liberty]

I couldn't really answer this question because it depends. I want clan weaponry and mechs balanced when going against other clan mechs but they should have advantages over the IS mechs. Because well.... Its clan weaponry. That being said I try to keep people from constantly calling for Nerfs on IS mechs. You think ECM streak Ravens are bad? Wait till you get a Clan light mech streaking you to death for 3 times the amount of damage a Raven does with Streak SRM6 launchers. I don't think Clan uses ECM right off so you are going to want what few advantages the IS has when the Clan mechs roll over the hill decimating everything in sight. In the addition to ECM the only other advantage the IS has is numbers. Clan mechs are crushingly powerful. I suspecting for balance they might send 8 IS mechs against a Star of 5 Clan mechs.

[Inviticus]

"Clan Tech" must be balanced with the IS mechs and gear. There will be no point to running anything but Clan if their stuff is superior. If PGI includes Clan Tech without proper gameplay and functional balance, I for one will no longer play this game.

[Hawkwings]

Clanners should lose money for assists instead of gaining money.

[Liberty]

There are LRM streaks? @.o

Anyways. I still think the best way to balance Clan vs IS mechs is the number of Clan mechs dropped. I think they should be just as powerful as they were in Mechwarrior lore. Clan will always be balanced against other clan but if you are thinking of dueling a Clan Mech with IS mech then you are going to be at a disadvantage and should be. Clan were genetically bred to be superior and their mechs are made with technology superior to IS mechs. Of course they are going to womp you in a duel. I did forget one other advantage the IS mechs had but not sure if it will be put in game. Melee weapons. Yes... I want my Hatchetman 6D with jumpjets, ECM, and a nice cleaving Hatchet.

Edited by Liberty, 12 January 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[Liberty]

Interesting on the LRM streaks. I recall their lasers having better range too.

I'm just not sure how they are going to do Clan as well.... You just don't walk up as a IS pilot and enlist. Will it be a separate account that we make, a split account, or will be forced to choose a faction when the game goes live and if so there is the problem of all our stockpiled IS mechs in the mech bay. I have to admit I wouldn't mind tackling an Atlas in a Kodiak. If we are forced to choose I'll probably stay IS especially if the Hatchetman or Axeman is released.

Edited by Liberty, 12 January 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[Ozric]

der langsamere, on 12 January 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

and this is why clan tech will fail. No offense but I hope they dont destroy (read: balance) clan tech and you leave.

Clan tech must be balanced, if it is not then the whole game will fail. As has been discussed already in this thread, there is no place in a competitive F2P game for hero classes, 10vs12 in a dice based board game is quite different from 10vs12 in an skill based shooter, and who exactly would play (or pay for) underpowered IS mechs when there are Clan mechs that simply do everything better? Your opinion is based on fantasy, no offense, and you need to apply more logic to the subject.

[Liberty]

Well... I would play an underpowered mech if we had superior numbers and my team was good. Yeah... If you are dropping with an uncoordinated team you are going to get wiped. I think superior numbers and a skilled team will make up for the tech handicap which is pretty much what the IS sphere had to do. That and adapt technology. I'm pretty sure a IS 8 with ECM vs a 5 Clan would make it really rough for the Clan side. Depends what mechs you bring to the party I guess. Only way we will know for sure is when it is play tested which will end up with lotta gripes on the forums I'm sure. Personally tho, I feel Clan mechs should be superior and the way to defeat Clan will be IS numbers and tactics. Clan also have restrictions on how they are suppose to engage but I don't think there will be any way to enforce that. As I recall they typically don't switch targets in the lore.

[John Norad]

Cebi, on 21 December 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Clan HAS to be balanced 1v1 against IS.

Then they should stop calling this game Mechwarrior. Instead 'generic pew pew shooter with stompy robots and a meaningless sprinkle of battletech fluff' would be appropriate.

If the devs can't come up with a way to make both sides attractive and balanced to play, they're not worth their salt in the first place.
On the TT, amongst other things, it could be the clan rules of engagement, the honor code, the being a test tube baby ot whatever that turned people off and let them play IS.
You don't want RP? Fine. Come up with something else. There are ways. If you can't think of one, hope the devs can.

After all, it was and should be winning that is important. Not the individual. If TT players are that much smarter compared to modern day computer players, then I finally got why the latter keep flaming the former. From below, a superior mentality must look like arrogance

Edited by John Norad, 12 January 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Ozric]

Liberty, on 12 January 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Well... I would play an underpowered mech if we had superior numbers and my team was good. Yeah... If you are dropping with an uncoordinated team you are going to get wiped. I think superior numbers and a skilled team will make up for the tech handicap which is pretty much what the IS sphere had to do. That and adapt technology. I'm pretty sure a IS 8 with ECM vs a 5 Clan would make it really rough for the Clan side. Depends what mechs you bring to the party I guess. Only way we will know for sure is when it is play tested which will end up with lotta gripes on the forums I'm sure. Personally tho, I feel Clan mechs should be superior and the way to defeat Clan will be IS numbers and tactics. Clan also have restrictions on how they are suppose to engage but I don't think there will be any way to enforce that. As I recall they typically don't switch targets in the lore.

No, that's exactly my point. in most circumstances the larger team will win despite tech. The more human brains/pairs of hands the greater the advantage. If we assume that both teams are full of skilled players, the larger would win probably all the time. To counter this, Clan mechs would have to be crazy overpowered and at that point would simply be more fun than their IS counterparts. Thus making IS tech obsolete, and all the work they have done so far on the IS mechs pointless in the long run.

[Liberty]

Hmm.... Not sure if that is true. A Ultra AC20 is going to ruin some mechs pretty quick. I'll reserve judgement till I've played against the Clan in Beta a few times. Think they have enough problems balancing the IS mechs right now before getting into Clan. I see this getting ugly no matter which way it goes when the Clan arrives. I'm hoping things like speed cap go away so MASC can be put in but I won't hold my breath. Kinda curios what kind of modules Clan mechs are going to have if any.

Edited by Liberty, 12 January 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Rift Hawk]

Clan tech is going to have to be balanced. There is no way around it. Otherwise, all current weapons in the game will become obsolete if you can also equip clan weapons to your inner sphere mechs. If you can't, Inner sphere mechs will become obsolete.

My personal opinion, is that Clan weapons should do more damage and take less heat but at the same time take more slots and weigh more. For instance, PPCs are currently 10 damage, take 3 slots and are 7 tons. A clan PPC should do 15 damage, take 6 slots and be 10 tons.

Also, I don't think inner sphere mechs should be able to use clan weapons. I think instead of the current salvage bonus, there should be a 1% chance on killing a mech that you salvage a clan weapon from it. Just one, not an infinite amount. If you kill a clan mech with a clan PPC and the 1% hits you get 1 clan PPC you can put on your inner sphere mech but only 1. If you want more you have to collect more. The same for Clan mechs and inner sphere weapons. The only person who gets the weapon is the person who killed the mech, not the whole team. Thats just an idea of mine and I think it might be kinda fun that way.

Edited by Imperial X, 12 January 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[The Testiclops]

I think it should be unmodified, but extremely expensive. Clan tech is almost sacred.

[Rift Hawk]

Athanos Kerensky, on 12 January 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

I think it should be unmodified, but extremely expensive. Clan tech is almost sacred.

I agree that Clan tech really is sacred but having it in game the way it should be would cause massive problems to game balance. Everyone is going to always go with the most powerful mechs. We've already seen that with the amount of Atlas, Stalker, Cats and Ravens on the battlefield. Most of the games I get into are those 4 mechs over and over again. Sometimes I see a cataphract or a Hunchback.....but generally just those mechs. If Clans come into this game unbalanced, Inner Sphere mechs might as well get deleted from the game. No one will use them anymore.