233 replies to this topic

[BaronSwasey]

I favor letting clan tech be slightly better, but switching to a matchmaking system that uses not just an ELO-like score, but Battle Values as well. For example (completely made up numbers) say player A was in a tricked out centurion with all clan tech, and player B was in a centurion with IS tech. Player A has a 10 ELO, Player B has an 12 Elo. If Player A's mech is worth 4 BV, and Player B's mech was worth 2 BV, they'd both be at a 14 for matchmaking purposes. That also means that if you're going to trick out your mech with Double heat sinks and Endosteel and the like, you'd better be getting good use for it, or it will float your effective elo way up.

[Yokaiko]

Stormwolf, on 12 January 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Your remark got me thinking about the Hellbringer/Loki, the primary configuration can never be viable in MWO due to the heat issues.

The stock IS mechs aren't viable, why would the clan be?

[Kelb]

Factions are still a ways away let us wait till they come out before we worry about balance.

[Rift Hawk]

ForsakenImp, on 12 January 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

I favor letting clan tech be slightly better, but switching to a matchmaking system that uses not just an ELO-like score, but Battle Values as well. For example (completely made up numbers) say player A was in a tricked out centurion with all clan tech, and player B was in a centurion with IS tech. Player A has a 10 ELO, Player B has an 12 Elo. If Player A's mech is worth 4 BV, and Player B's mech was worth 2 BV, they'd both be at a 14 for matchmaking purposes. That also means that if you're going to trick out your mech with Double heat sinks and Endosteel and the like, you'd better be getting good use for it, or it will float your effective elo way up.

At this point in time (3050), the Inner Sphere should have no option to equip clan tech. No clan weapons for the Inner Sphere. Doing otherwise would be stupid.

[Yokaiko]

ForsakenImp, on 12 January 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

I favor letting clan tech be slightly better, but switching to a matchmaking system that uses not just an ELO-like score, but Battle Values as well. For example (completely made up numbers) say player A was in a tricked out centurion with all clan tech, and player B was in a centurion with IS tech. Player A has a 10 ELO, Player B has an 12 Elo. If Player A's mech is worth 4 BV, and Player B's mech was worth 2 BV, they'd both be at a 14 for matchmaking purposes. That also means that if you're going to trick out your mech with Double heat sinks and Endosteel and the like, you'd better be getting good use for it, or it will float your effective elo way up.

ELO doesn't really matter.

Anything less than a company + a lance IS vs two clan stars should be a slaughter for the clans, they are that much better, more range, less weight, less heat, more damage OH XLs that don't kill you when you get side cored, x8 heatsinks in the legs standing in water etc etc etc. That is at 3050 level2 tech

However you have to GET people to play IS, and I've no idea what they are panning for that.

[Stormwolf]

Yokaiko, on 12 January 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

The stock IS mechs aren't viable, why would the clan be?

My point exactly.

[Termius]

I'm not sure where I stand on the whole Clan-Tech arguement. I would like to be able to pilot a super badass clan mech and faceroll some IS mechs. At the same time this is a FTP online game and I don't want one thing being OP over everything else.

On that note I do like the idea of facing off against 5 clan mechs with 7 other IS mechs and battling it out, but if clan mechs were to be mixed with IS mechs in other gamemodes they would have to be balanced for obvious reasons.

Edited by Termius, 12 January 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[Saxdasm]

MustrumRidcully, on 12 January 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

No, it doesn't balance itself. It is intentionally build more powerful.

Inner Sphere ER PPC: 10 damage, 15 heat, 7 tons, 3 Crits
Clan ER PPC: 15 damage, 15 heat, 6 tons, 2 Crits.
IS Streak 2: 1.5 tons, 1 Crit, max range 9 Hexes / 270m, 2 damage / missile /(fires 2 missiles), 2 Heat
CLan Streak: 1 ton, 1 Crit, max range 12 Hexes / 360m, 2 damage /misissile /(fires 2 missiles), 2 Heat

Clan XL Engines only need 2 Crit Slots in the side torso. To destroy an engine, it need to basically lose 3 crit slots (or take 3 crits). CLan XL Engines are less prone to destruction than IS XL Engines. Basically, you will need to shoot of both side torsos to destroy a Clan mech with XL Engines. And not to forget, their Endo Steel needs less Crits, their Ferro Fibrous needs less crits and provides more armour per ton., and their double heat sinks need less crits as well.

The list goes on. Everytime you compare Clan weapons to IS weapons, you will find some serious advantages for Clan Tech. Clan Tech is superior by design.

It's a thing I hate about Clans and Battletech in the post 3050. I dislike power creep intensely. But that's Battletech. The way to try to reign in these imbalances was battle value. I strongly doubt that PGI is able to pull off a working battle value system, however. The skill needed to make a decent battle value system is the same skill set you need to make weapon balanced stats, and so far they haven't delivered on the latter, so I see no reason to believe they can achieve the former.

but the clan doesn't have access to certain weapons the the i.s. does and the same goes for the i.s. the clan does not have a normal large laser. you are stuck with a ER laser or a Heavy laser both of which generate more heat. sure they do more damage but if you are constantly overheating then whats the point? are you insinuating that the 1 ton you save for clan tech will even remotely make up for the extra heat you generate even with an extra heat sink over a normal laser. also the clan doesn't have a normal AC anything so if you want an ac its got to be a lbx or an ultra. they don't have an normal ppc either so yet again more heat. and another thing. another weapon the clan doesn't have are the MRM missile racks. MRM's are dumb fire, do the same damage as a LRM and you can get a MRM 40 rack you also get twice as much ammo per ton than LRM ammo. another thing is that the inner sphere has some better specialty items than the clan specifically the C3 computer especially later on when you get the C3i which relays all targeting info that everyone sees to every one and acts like a tag.
so yeah it balances itself in its own way.

[Saxdasm]

what they should do is keep you from mixing tech from clan and is. no mixed builds clan chassis clan tech is chassis is tech. that simple.

[Ozric]

Saxdasm, on 12 January 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

what they should do is keep you from mixing tech from clan and is. no mixed builds clan chassis clan tech is chassis is tech. that simple.

Nope, that would unbalance things too, and still make all the IS chassis obsolete. Clan tech must be simply another tier of equipment, and there must be a way of using Clan weapons on IS mechs to keep those chassis viable.

[MustrumRidcully]

Saxdasm, on 12 January 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

but the clan doesn't have access to certain weapons the the i.s. does and the same goes for the i.s. the clan does not have a normal large laser. you are stuck with a ER laser or a Heavy laser both of which generate more heat. sure they do more damage but if you are constantly overheating then whats the point? are you insinuating that the 1 ton you save for clan tech will even remotely make up for the extra heat you generate even with an extra heat sink over a normal laser. also the clan doesn't have a normal AC anything so if you want an ac its got to be a lbx or an ultra. they don't have an normal ppc either so yet again more heat. and another thing. another weapon the clan doesn't have are the MRM missile racks. MRM's are dumb fire, do the same damage as a LRM and you can get a MRM 40 rack you also get twice as much ammo per ton than LRM ammo. another thing is that the inner sphere has some better specialty items than the clan specifically the C3 computer especially later on when you get the C3i which relays all targeting info that everyone sees to every one and acts like a tag.
so yeah it balances itself in its own way.

The thing is - the ER Large Laser is too hot in MW:O, because it doesn't have the advantages to justify the high heat load. But the Clan Version may be - lighter, more damage, more range, and you can field more Clan DHS.

Let's say you can run a 100 ton mech like the Atlas with 4 Large Lasers and 21 Double Heat Sinks effectively. Now imagine you could replace those 4 Large Lasers with Large Lasers that dela 20 % more damage and heat (or ER Large Lasers that deal 20 % more damage than Cla ER Large Laser), and add about 4 Double Heat Sinks. Suddenly the heat load doesn't sound so brutal anymore, as you get more out of it.

But if you think the energy weapons are too hot - remember that they aren't the only type of Clan Weapon. You still have Clan Ultra Auto-Cannons, Clan Streaks. None of them produce much heat. On the one side, you have an ATlas with 1 AC/20 or Gauss RIfle and 3 Artemis SRM6s and 2 Medium Lasers, on the other side you have a 100 ton mech with an Ultra AC/20, 3 Streak SRM 6s and 2 ER Medium Lasers.

Clan Mechs can handle more heat, because they have better double heat sink. But if that is failing, they still have the perk of having weapons that also deal more damage and are lighter, and they have the option to use low heat weapons as well.

[William Warriors]

Perhaps one day when they get the salvage system working properly, we can get clan tech from Salvages.

Edited by William Conrad, 13 January 2013 - 03:44 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

wanna see what peoples' thoughts are now

[Serapth]

Clan tech wasn't balanced in the TT game, and it had the concept of BV to deal with.

Until this game has a comparable system, where some things suck simply because they cost too much ( not c-bills... but abstract "points" ), there is simply no way to balance things that are otherwise just universally good.